Bit of personal research (livery and sending horses away to be schooled)

[spotty_pony2]

I will try and keep this as short and simple as I can. After a few disasters this week work wise and also my Van breaking down it has left me thinking about what I want to do job wise moving forward.

I’ve done the whole horsey thing (even running livery yards) and moved away from it. Wasn’t interested at all, but after meeting a lovely equine physio yesterday who gave me some serious compliments on my horses and the condition they are in it has instilled me with confidence and relit something inside me of something I used to love doing.

Been having a serious think and as we have land at home and currently having an arena built, I am thinking of having three more stables put in and offering Full, bespoke livery where horse will receive everything it needs and the correct work to help them to develop and progress. This would either be temporary schooling livery, full ridden livery, hunting livery or I would consider rehab livery as I’d work closely with my good team of Vets, Farriers, Physios etc to provide hr horse with the best of care as I do my own.

It’s our home so it would be more suitable for those who work full time or perhaps those with other commitments. Our location provides good links to local competition centres and also a good direct route to London.

Although a business, this would be more a lifestyle career for me. Horses would be treated as part of the family and given the very best of care. This is why I would only be having three so I cab keep standards high.

My question is do you think this would interest many? Do you know people who would like this kind of thing? Have you ever sent your horse away for schooling? What sort of price would you be expecting to pay for this?

I am in East Midlands but this would be the kind of thing where owners could send their horse from anywhere in the country.

Any answers much appreciated as this research stage is very important!

 

[ihatework]

For true schooling or rehab livery I would only consider someone with a good track record of producing - so I suppose it would depend on what your horsey cv is and how experienced you are with a variety of horses and their issues.

 

[spotty_pony2]

Sorry probably should add I have quite a lot of experience with a huge variety of horses - different breeds and types etc and also I have worked with a lot of very sensitive horses. I have a fair amount of people who would give me a reference too. I haven’t got a track record for producing as such (yet) but as was commented yesterday - my horses’ condition speak for itself the time that has been invested in to get them like that. Everyone has to start somewhere and anybody who knows me on a personal level knows how much time goes into keeping my horses in tip top condition - and many others in the past that I have helped too.

 

[teapot]

Some thoughts:

- A maximum of three won't make you much money once you've paid all your running costs
- What would be your plan if you weren't well enough to do them each day, or heck even wanting a holiday?
- What's your track record/equestrian CV like, will people want to go to you?

 

[spotty_pony2]

Some thoughts:

- A maximum of three won't make you much money once you've paid all your running costs
- What would be your plan if you weren't well enough to do them each day, or heck even wanting a holiday?
- What's your track record/equestrian CV like, will people want to go to you?

Last question I have more or less answered above.

If they are only coming temporarily for schooling etc then I would work holidays around them but generally I rarely go away as I don’t like to leave my old boy for too long - and when I do it’s for about 4-5 days once per year. I have a lot of contacts so would get somebody in to cover those days if the situation arose or if I was ill but again I am not the sort to not work unless I am extremely poorly.

Money wise, I do not have a huge amount of outgoings and running costs as it’s at home and am wanting it more to help to pay towards general costs such as my own horse. This is more a lifestyle for me than just a career which is why I’d want only a few at a time so I can do it properly - I don’t believe you could realistically take on more than that and do them to a high standard without taking on more staff too.

 

[ihatework]

Ok so my response based on your second post, to your original questions:

My question is do you think this would interest many? The market is limited, and with your limited experience you will only attract people who already know you at this stage, you will also likely need to undercut established people in your area.

Do you know people who would like this kind of thing? Yes

Have you ever sent your horse away for schooling? Yes - but only to proven people

What sort of price would you be expecting to pay for this? Going rate around me is £35-45/day depending on situation. But I would not pay this for someone starting out. TBH I’d prefer to pay going rate and not risk a wannabe messing things up (I’m not saying you are btw)

 

[gallopingby]

I would only send to someone with considerable experience, and with a good back up team. I would expect to visit in advance of any arrangement and to be very clear about the outcomes I was expecting from you. Even for 3 full time liveries you have to be able to fully commit plus do your own horses. Supposing one of the liveries is difficult to manage in some way who will you have around to support you at the time you require help? How long is a ‘short’ period of time?

 

[spotty_pony2]

I would only send to someone with considerable experience, and with a good back up team. I would expect to visit in advance of any arrangement and to be very clear about the outcomes I was expecting from you. Even for 3 full time liveries you have to be able to fully commit plus do your own horses. Supposing one of the liveries is difficult to manage in some way who will you have around to support you at the time you require help? How long is a ‘short’ period of time?

I have a good support network around me. Short as in 6 weeks as an example but open to any amounts of time. I’ve done 10 part liveries single handedly so I am not phased by 6 at home.

 

[cbmcts]

I apologise in advance as I may sound negative but it's not meant negatively if that makes sense!

Questions to ask yourself

Will you need planning/change of use if you start a business on your yard?
Will doing this trigger business rates and/or the need for commercial insurance and all that entails?
Who actually owns the land/yard? If it's rented/leased or even mortgaged, are there conditions in place that restrict business use?
Will 3 liveries actually cover any extra costs AND pay you a liveable wage including pension contributions, holiday wages, sickness cover etc?
Will you need staff, taking into account that if you are producing, you will have to travel to compete so could end up staying away, run a lorry, comply with tach regs and so on. Will your charges cover that and can you do the admin involved?

You need a really good business plan with all the potential pitfalls explored and mitigated. I think that if I were you and wanted to earn from your property and horses, I would look at dealing in a small scale. Find a few diamonds in the rough, polish them up and sell on in a really ethical way. Now, I doubt that 3 spaces, no matter what services you offer will offer even a small salary once all costs were taken into account but they could provide a really nice side hustle allowing you to pick and choose other employment that can pay the bills, pension, NI etc.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I use these sorts of services for my horses for:

Rehab
Schooling
When work is too busy
To give me a break over winter

These are the things that I value:

1. Turnout

I walk the fields, ask about flooding, check the fencing. I want a choice of individual and group turnout, so that I know there’s never an issue of “there is nowhere to put your horse and it’s being bullied.” I look for as close to daily turnout as possible, and want to see a plan to give them a break from the stable in the case that they cannot go you - runs attached to the stables, turnout in the school, a horse walker, in-hand grazing. I would prioritise a low grass field with lots of space to keep them moving and avoid a rich, small field.

2. Facilities

I would prefer an indoor school and will check the surface of any school. If my horses are working in it several times a week then it’s important to me that it’s even and not too deep, and I check the mirrors seem safe. The yards I’ve used have either had a very well maintained indoor, or presently I’m using one where they school on a surface as well as on grass which is nice.

I consider things like hot and cold water, electricity and wash bays as pretty much standard for any professional yard these days. Proper hard-standing areas are important to me because I don’t have them at home, and I know how annoying it is not to have then.

Horse walker, solarium, good lunging facilities and sets of jumps and / or a cross country course is always good.

3. Riding

I am incredibly careful about this, so I’d want to see a decent CV and competition record. If I’m paying someone to add to my horse’s education then they need to be a better rider than me. I don’t mind if more junior riders ride my horse if coached and overseen by the pro, and if cleared with me and I have met and approved the rider.

I’d also want to see videos of horses being schooled, which is easy enough with social media these days. Most pro yards have videos and photos of schooling and competing so I can get a feel for their approach.

I would consider height and weight of anyone riding my horse as an element too. I would prioritise less weight on my horse’s backs. Plus a point to consider for yourself, if you do happen to be a small, lightweight rider - or have someone of a high caliber on your team who is like that - then your range of horses you can offer services to greatly increases. Small horses and ponies would be an excellent market for this sort of thing. Ponies often need to be produced for child riders, or rehabbed by someone other than the child. The competitive pony crowd spends an awful lot of money on horses.

4. Visiting and updates

I want an open door policy. There should be no question that I can pop in and check up, without warning. The yard should operate with such confidence in its management and services that this as an automatic assumption of theirs. I’d like decent parking, comfortable areas to watch, and a friendly and welcoming atmosphere. I would not even consider anywhere that made me feel like despite me being the customer, they are doing me some kind of favour by having me there. I’ve seen this on more than one occasion with potential yards, and it’s a hard no for me.

5. Wider team

I’d expect the yard to have a physio, vet, farrier that I can use but I would absolutely want to retain choice, and not to be pushed into using anyone over my own.

Feet are of the utmost importance to me, so I really value knowledge and proper care of hooves. A farrier who understands about barefoot trimming, foot balance and hoof boots is important to me, but I’ll bring mine if theirs isn’t on that page. The yard should demonstrate an awareness of the impact of diet and sugars on feet. I’d rather they were overly concerned with laminitis than not careful enough.

I don’t mind switching brands of feed especially if there are sponsorships involved, but I want to know that nutrition is properly considered and would be pleased if professional nutritionists and vets have been involved which is usually the case if they have horses competing to high levels. I want to be consulted on any changes to the make up of what they’re getting, and I want to have final decision on supplements and feed.

I have really enjoyed yards where there are a wider range of professionals engaged too. Visiting judges, trainers, professional riders are all brilliant to have. My yards have offered things like straightness workshops, rider fitness, clinics with a visiting professional, visiting saddle fitters etc. I have even gone to evening talks where they have served wine.

Two yards that I use, both local in Oxfordshire, offer different takes and blends of the above for between £800 and £1200 per month, with additional services putting me at a top end spend of about £1700 per month. Additional horses are discounted on the base rate at one, and I actually haven’t asked the other yet.

ETA, because I got distracted by the doorbell. I’ve written the above as it represents what is on the market as a competitor, and you can get an idea of what prices these sorts of yards command. Both of these yards are run from the YOs own property, and run approximately 12-20 horses, a large proportion of which are the owner’s own horses. Both have broodmares and youngstock too.

To set yourself apart, I think you’d need to come in as much less expensive or develop a unique angle. The risk is that doing it for less money, with fewer horses will not be a sustainable business model.

If I were you, I’d think about what your target market is, what their spending capacity is, how reliable that income is. Then I would work from there to set up an offer, rather than work from what you have and trying to commercialise that.

 

[Trouper]

With the facilities you have I would only consider re-hab livery. This would seem to play to your strengths, give you a work programme which was more controllable by you i.e. be able to schedule a break between customers if you wanted to and, more importantly for me (!) not have liveries turning up every day and getting in the way.

If you have good working relations with your vets, farriers etc then I think the word would soon get out just based on personal and professional recommendation.

 

[millitiger]

I don't think you will make enough money from 3 liveries, unless you have another income.
Also echo what someone else said earlier about checking planning permissions and business rates etc.
You do also need to have proficient yard cover; not just for illness but also injury if you are riding and handling other people's horses.

I have sent horses for schooling and would do so again.
However, I would only consider someone with years of experience already doing it and providing the service- I don't want my horse to be a guinea pig.
If you will be riding, I would expect a good competition CV to a reasonable level; you may not be competing the liveries but it proves you can ride well and is something people can check by Google.
I am lairy of recommendations unless I know well and respect the person giving the recommendation.
If you are doing rehab livery, I would expect you to need at least one other staff member as lots of elements of rehab take 2 people- e.g. sharp horses can take 2 people just to hand walk properly!

Cost wise- normal, full livery with exercise I would expect around £300/week, around here.
A little more for rehab to take into account the extra time and staff needs.

 

[Goldenstar]

While I would not need or want someone to produce my horse I would certainly be interested in this type of long term livery .

However I think the main issue I would have that would make me worry about sending a horse to you how practical it is with out staff .
This would make me hesitate to send a horse to you .

If you have three livery’s that’s a minimum of three hours a day to provide exercise if the owner is not coming in to ride .
Then you need to do all the care mucking out tidying up clipping trimming etc etc you also have your own horses Hold the horses for vet visits etc .
When I was young I worked on a livery providing that sort of wrap round care we did schooling breaking competition type livery rehab hunting just everything .
If an owner left a horse for a year and came back they would have had a horse fit and year further developed when they returned it was extremely hard work great fun and maximum one did was was three horses a day perhaps four if one was an un worked horse .

While not impossible it’s a lot for one person seven days week everyday of the year .
What happens if you fall and are hurt or get a virus and can’t work these things would worry me .

 

[Goldie's mum]

I am thinking of having three more stables put in and offering Full, bespoke livery where horse will receive everything it needs and the correct work to help them to develop and progress. This would either be temporary schooling livery, full ridden livery, hunting livery or I would consider rehab livery as I’d work closely with my good team of Vets, Farriers, Physios etc to provide hr horse with the best of care as I do my own.

Not read all the replies yet but my first thought is you need to decide on a very definite line of business that you specialise in. Not criticising, I know the quote above is just you thinking aloud, but it's very vague. You need to get a reputation for doing something specific.

 

[Goldie's mum]

It’s our home so it would be more suitable for those who work full time or perhaps those with other commitments. Our location provides good links to local competition centres and also a good direct route to London.

Although a business, this would be more a lifestyle career for me. Horses would be treated as part of the family and given the very best of care. This is why I would only be having three so I cab keep standards high.

Did this ^^^ describe buying a youngster or 3 to bring on & sell?
(No strangers wandering in at awkward times. No need to accommodate three different owners with their own ideas of what is needed. Fewer health & safety issues. Lower insurance. )

 

[eahotson]

I absolutely would try someone new, even if relatively unknown, if I liked them.I did with the Spanish trainer and it is the best thing I have done in the horse world for a long time.I find him competent, very,honest and professional.The yard he is at and where I am now keeping my horse is a bit of a work in progress but has all the facilities you need including some off road hacking.It is also a cattle yard! My trainer has amongst other things, and without being asked,hacked my little cob everywhere,made sure she has seen everything and is comfortable with everything.His schooling and ground work is also excellent.
Whether you can make a business of what you plan to do I will leave others to judge.Perhaps involve your bank in a business plan?

 

[spotty_pony2]

thank you eahotson for the positive reply!

Definitely some food for thought. Of course if it became too much work I would consider taking someone on to help with the yard chores so I can concentrate purely on the training and exercising etc.

This was not a post to ask about insurance etc as of course that will all be taken into account later down the line. This is just the initial thought process atm. I have bought young horses and schooled them on and sold them in the past and it isn’t something I would be against doing again but I do like the idea of trying to offer some help to owners out there who need it.

I already look after two horses here for my friend who owns the house and is caring for her terminally ill mother so she doesn’t have the time for the horses right now but at least when the time comes she can hop on and enjoy rather than having a feral horse that needs to start at the beginning. This is kind of the business model I am going down. It is a very quiet yard here and horses seem to settle well.

It is very secure here - electric gates etc and horses but we do have a guard dog so for this reason only I would have to know when owners were planning on visiting so I could make sure she is in the house. For peace of mind though we are going to have security cameras put up and there would be the opportunity for owners to have the camera in their horse’s stable connected to their phone so they could keep an eye on their horse that way too. I could even have a camera put in the arena too. Regular video updates would be sent throughout an off course I’d be doing open to whichever faerie etc people wanted to use. All feed, tack etc would remain the same as the owner already fed unless I thought it was necessary for something to change and in which case i would discuss with the owner.

I’ll be honest and say i don’t have a massive competition cv partly due to the horses I have had, bad the fact I’ve mainly done a lot of hunting. I have a lot of photos and videos from over the years though. I have more focused on producing the young and green horses and getting the correct topline and muscle etc so they are prepared for whichever job they are then asked to do.

 

[ihatework]

What there might be a need for, is (if you have the people skills and desire) is the more novice/nervous RC type who wants a supportive hand holding full livery. So you help a bit with the riding but also help them at comps etc.

 

[SEL]

If you're small enough to do kids ponies then I think there's a market for that. A lady near me does the high end HOYS workers but she can ride 11h welshies so often gets the pony club types in to back as well.

 

[spotty_pony2]

If you're small enough to do kids ponies then I think there's a market for that. A lady near me does the high end HOYS workers but she can ride 11h welshies so often gets the pony club types in to back as well.

I’m not quite small enough for 11 hands but probably could do 13.2 chunky types upwards and definitely would be fine on the connemaras.

 

[Wishfilly]

I agree with @SEL - there is a market for people light enough to produce/school children's ponies if you fit the bill and are interested. People don't necessarily need you to have a top competition CV for this, and although they may expect to pay a bit less, equally your costs would likely be a bit less too (and potentially less damage to the land etc).

Most people I know/know of who do this do it alongside sales livery, rather than solely making their money from schooling though.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

Ponies would definitely be the way to go. If a pony was properly socialised, taken out hunting, schooled up nicely it would be a very attractive offer for parents wanting to produce something rather than buy ready made at a premium.

Small hacks too - I have been so lucky to find someone the right size for Mim.

 

[ihatework]

I’m not quite small enough for 11 hands but probably could do 13.2 chunky types upwards and definitely would be fine on the connemaras.

Teenager market - parents keen for kids to keep up at school, full livery, keep the pony horse tuned up during the week for the teenager to ride on holidays and weekends.
There is a market for that

 

[sollimum]

My baby cob has been away being rebacked, learning to move to the mounting block, deal with me flapping about, hacked out in company and alone. Walks, trots and canters in the school and out hacking. I am thrilled with his progress and the attention to detail he has received to make him suitable middle aged me. I am sure there is a very good market for that as there is a very good market for suitable riding horses for my age group.

 

[eahotson]

My baby cob has been away being rebacked, learning to move to the mounting block, deal with me flapping about, hacked out in company and alone. Walks, trots and canters in the school and out hacking. I am thrilled with his progress and the attention to detail he has received to make him suitable for a middle aged woman. I am sure there is a very good market for that as there is a very good market for suitable riding horses for my age group.

Agree.100%

 

[irishdraft]

Im sure you would get interest but I think it's an awful lot of work for one person 7 days a week. If someone's paying for bespoke livery then they will want every box ticked, maybe doable in the summer but winter it could be extremely hard going.

 

[Goldenstar]

I personally would not be worried about lack of competition on your cv if I knew you
I would worry about how you would cope with the work which seems to be your own horse two for the owner of the place and three livery’s .
The having to arrange to visit would also worry me but might not be a deal breaker if you had everything else I wanted

 

[LadyGascoyne]

thank you eahotson for the positive reply!

Definitely some food for thought. Of course if it became too much work I would consider taking someone on to help with the yard chores so I can concentrate purely on the training and exercising etc.

This was not a post to ask about insurance etc as of course that will all be taken into account later down the line. This is just the initial thought process atm. I have bought young horses and schooled them on and sold them in the past and it isn’t something I would be against doing again but I do like the idea of trying to offer some help to owners out there who need it.

I already look after two horses here for my friend who owns the house and is caring for her terminally ill mother so she doesn’t have the time for the horses right now but at least when the time comes she can hop on and enjoy rather than having a feral horse that needs to start at the beginning. This is kind of the business model I am going down. It is a very quiet yard here and horses seem to settle well.

It is very secure here - electric gates etc and horses but we do have a guard dog so for this reason only I would have to know when owners were planning on visiting so I could make sure she is in the house. For peace of mind though we are going to have security cameras put up and there would be the opportunity for owners to have the camera in their horse’s stable connected to their phone so they could keep an eye on their horse that way too. I could even have a camera put in the arena too. Regular video updates would be sent throughout an off course I’d be doing open to whichever faerie etc people wanted to use. All feed, tack etc would remain the same as the owner already fed unless I thought it was necessary for something to change and in which case i would discuss with the owner.

I’ll be honest and say i don’t have a massive competition cv partly due to the horses I have had, bad the fact I’ve mainly done a lot of hunting. I have a lot of photos and videos from over the years though. I have more focused on producing the young and green horses and getting the correct topline and muscle etc so they are prepared for whichever job they are then asked to do.

If your friend owns the place then I’d be very very careful to get a proper legal agreement in place. You may already but just in case, I have seen so many loose arrangements go south, and unless you have the security of an agreement then it often ends up that the nuances of discussed agreements get forgotten.

I’d agree with GS that if you’re known to the owner then competition record may not be as relevant.

I do think that it might inform what you can charge though, as there might be others who offer similar services and have the comp record too.

And it’s also worth bearing in mind that horse people can have funny attitudes to paying. I frequently get asked why I pay for my horses to be schooled and told I should be charging a fee as a share. I pay because I value the service but I do think it is commonplace for people with half decent horses to expect someone to feel privileged to exercise them.

 

[eahotson]

If your friend owns the place then I’d be very very careful to get a proper legal agreement in place. You may already but just in case, I have seen so many loose arrangements go south, and unless you have the security of an agreement then it often ends up that the nuances of discussed agreements get forgotten.

I’d agree with GS that if you’re known to the owner then competition record may not be as relevant.

I do think that it might inform what you can charge though, as there might be others who offer similar services and have the comp record too.

And it’s also worth bearing in mind that horse people can have funny attitudes to paying. I frequently get asked why I pay for my horses to be schooled and told I should be charging a fee as a share. I pay because I value the service but I do think it is commonplace for people with half decent horses to expect someone to feel privileged to exercise them.

I agree that people in the horse world have a funny attitude to paying.Spanish trainer fed up with the number of people who want him to break a horse in 3 weeks.He says he can't do a proper job in that time.

 

[94lunagem]

I’ll be honest and say i don’t have a massive competition cv partly due to the horses I have had, bad the fact I’ve mainly done a lot of hunting.

I’ve had need for rehab livery in the past and a lack of CV wouldn’t have bothered me. My boy went to someone who did have a competition record but I found her through the recommendation of my trainer, and to be honest my criteria was someone brave enough and physically light enough. If you are well known in the hunting community, that would have been good enough for me.