Bit Problems!!

[PaulnasherryRocky]

Beware long post!

I can't find a bit that my horse is happy in and goes well in.

When I tried him out before buying him he was in a wilkie, he felt very strong and his mouth was wide open the whole time I was riding him. With a flash on he was still strong but obviously being strapped down he couldn't open his mouth, so he just had his ears back the entire time instead to show his discomfort.

When he first came to me I was told never to ride him in a snaffle because he is dangerous and strong and i'd never be able to stop him- so naturally I did as they said and put him in a rubber straight bar pelham (with a curb chain).

He was lovely and soft on the mouth with the pelham but has issues with over bending and gob still wide open. So after getting to know him and pushing his boundaries a bit I changed his bit to a waterford snaffle, which he went nicely in for about a month.

Then we got the same sort of issues again, his mouth was always still open and he started to really chew the bit and whenever the rein was slightly loose he somehow managed to get the sides of the bit in his mouth to chew (this happened in the pelham also)

So I figured now I'd gained trust in him I would just stick a happy mouth peanut snaffle in and see how we go. Although he felt slightly stronger it was still okay and no problems there. He then got in to the habbit of snatching the bit and grabbing hold in an attempt to tank around everywhere, and with the flash was quite head shakey. I had to get rid of the happy mouth snaffle because he bit through it and for some reason it made the sides of his mouth bleed which no other bit had ever done.

SO, now he is in a KY double rotary snaffle with donut rings. He hacks fine with it and jumps well in it but with flatwork in the school he is still trying to grab it and tank (though schooling is helping this). I feel that although its great he is in such a mild bit I am having to use much pressure than I would like for the braking system to work (as well as using my seat which he responds well to, to an extent- my core is only so strong!)

-Head shaking seems to have been cured by removing the noseband- though now we still have the issue of the mouth being open some of the time (not nearly as much as it used to be) and so can't use a flash

Before anyone asks, yes I have tried bitless! (stupidly, considering what previous owner told me haha) That was fine (ish) to hack with but the brakes were crap he ignored all seat aids and the only way i could stop him cantering all the way home was to constantly change direction.


DENTAL- He has had the dentist twice since I have had him (since Feb). I asked the dentist if he had a funny shaped mouth/tongue and if he new of a bit that might suit. He doesn't have anything wrong with his mouth and the dentist just said it'd going to be a long case of trial and error.

So, what I'm looking for is something stronger than the bit he is in to refine the "brakes" in the school (He was so lovely on the mouth in the pelham) , can't have a curb chain, can't use a flash, and needs to be something he will hopefully find more comfortable and wont have his mouth open so much. He can't have any bit with poll action as I don't want to encourage him to over bend again and definitely DEFINITELY can't go bitless!

Sorry for such a long post, but I've spent a fortune on bits and can't seem to find anything that we're BOTH happy with! Hope some of this made sense...

Here's a quick shortlist of bits etc we have tried and failed with:
-Wilki
-Single jointed Pelham
-Straight bar rubber pelham
-Waterford snaffle
-Happy mouth peanut snaffle
-KY double rotary snaffle
-Flash
-No Flash
-Monty Roberts bitless bridle

 

[sportsmansB]

Could you try a waterford with cheeks with a flash?
If you had cheeks then he couldn't get it in his mouth...

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

Could you try a waterford with cheeks with a flash?
If you had cheeks then he couldn't get it in his mouth...

This is EXACTLY what CF goes out in.
At home for much of the time we can now go in a french link & flash, but going out in company or off to parties at RC etc, then this is what he goes best in

 

[PaulnasherryRocky]

Could you try a waterford with cheeks with a flash?
If you had cheeks then he couldn't get it in his mouth...

Waterford with cheeks could work however he would still have his mouth open as I now can't use a flash atall or a nose band (sorry should have put this in original post) as he has scar tissue under his chin that gets aggravated by any type of noseband- vet has said just don't use anything even if it's padded etc as it will still aggravate it

I'm going to write a list of all bits people recommend and will get through trying all of them, thanks!

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

Ah, nose issue.
Have you thought about trying a Kineton noseband then? Worth borrowing one to see how that helps

 

[PaulnasherryRocky]

Ah, nose issue.
Have you thought about trying a Kineton noseband then? Worth borrowing one to see how that helps

Haven't thought of that before, good idea I will see if I can get hold of one- There's me thinking he's a big solid cob, turns out he's Mr. Sensitive Fussy-Ass

 

[PaulnasherryRocky]

A question about the kineton noseband-

If the bitless bridle had no effect on the brakes using pressure on the nose, is it likely that the Kineton noseband will also have no effect? I don't want to end up putting loads and loads of pressure on his nose in case it encourages him to shake his head again. My instructor tells me I have "soft hands" but there is sometimes only so soft you can be when he's tanking around

 

[CharliePonyPops]

Hi can I recommend The Bit Shop. They specialise purely in bits, have a massive bit bank and have oodles of knowledge! Most of the time they will let you have a 30 day trial. Their website is http://www.thehorsebitshop.co.uk/. Just a quick question have you had your vet look at his teeth as well as a dentist?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

What sort of bitless bridle did you use? They vary greatly.

I personally would try the kineton (combined with the bit he likes best), they can be very successful, so it's worth a go.

 

[PaulnasherryRocky]

Hi can I recommend The Bit Shop. They specialise purely in bits, have a massive bit bank and have oodles of knowledge! Most of the time they will let you have a 30 day trial. Their website is http://www.thehorsebitshop.co.uk/. Just a quick question have you had your vet look at his teeth as well as a dentist?

Bit bank sounds exactly like what I need thanks!

The first time he had his teeth done it was by my vet, who also said bitting would be trial and error for him, the second time it was a "proper" dentist who said the same about trial and error.

I admit his mouth opening could easily just be a habit he had developed, as the first time he had his teeth done with me the vet said either he had never had them done before or they had not been done for a long time as his teeth were immensely sharp. He's 9 years old and came over from Ireland so I would assume he would have only seen a dentist if it was absolutely desperate

 

[PaulnasherryRocky]

What sort of bitless bridle did you use? They vary greatly.

I personally would try the kineton (combined with the bit he likes best), they can be very successful, so it's worth a go.

I used a Monty Roberts dually halter (I think- I borrowed it from a friend) it was one that just put pressure on the front of his nose, as at the time his scar tissue under his chin had flared up so I could not use anything that would put pressure on the underside of his chin.

I had a look at using a cross over one, but again because of the sore under his face I can't have anything that touches under his chin so can't try one of those

(will attach a pic of the bridle I used)

http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/...3535094_7262314908547272878_n_zps6e20a5b5.jpg

 

[be positive]

You say he has scar tissue under his jaw do you know where that originates from, one of mine has some which originates from an injury on the bar of his mouth 18 months ago, recent xrays show it has healed but there are still signs of trauma, I would be considering looking at his mouth in more depth, mine was examined by a vet and dentist who couldn't find anything on the bar it was only the xray that showed the true extent of the damage, at the moment it seems to have healed but they can develop a sequestrum so it needs keeping an eye on.

 

[PaulnasherryRocky]

You say he has scar tissue under his jaw do you know where that originates from, one of mine has some which originates from an injury on the bar of his mouth 18 months ago, recent xrays show it has healed but there are still signs of trauma, I would be considering looking at his mouth in more depth, mine was examined by a vet and dentist who couldn't find anything on the bar it was only the xray that showed the true extent of the damage, at the moment it seems to have healed but they can develop a sequestrum so it needs keeping an eye on.

It's unknown where it came from as it is quite old scar tissue, when I had him vetted they said it could be an old hunting injury, could just be where he had a nose band too tight and it got rubbed raw on a full days hunting especially if he had a tight flash on too, or it could be a scar from an ulcer. The vet didn't seem to say anything about any deeper damage than just the surface

It's worth thinking about though for future if I can't find anything he's happy with. He seems best so far in the ky rotary, just stronger than I would like- with any luck consistent schooling and lesson could solve alllll my problems haha

 

[Beausmate]

If he went nicely in the pelham, what about a vulcanised rubber mullen mouth snaffle, with a kineton or worcester noseband for brakes? My horse has recently been diagnosed with osteoarthritis of the tmj and I've bought a kineton to use on him, in order to take some of the pressure off his lower jaw. Working so far....

 

[PaulnasherryRocky]

If he went nicely in the pelham, what about a vulcanised rubber mullen mouth snaffle, with a kineton or worcester noseband for brakes? My horse has recently been diagnosed with osteoarthritis of the tmj and I've bought a kineton to use on him, in order to take some of the pressure off his lower jaw. Working so far....

Is that bit flexible? as i think he kept his mouth open with the straight bar pelham because there was no give in it to go to the shape of his mouth (if that makes sense?)

I will defo give a kineton a go if i can get hold of it but am reluctant to use anything that will put too much pressure on his nose

thanks!

 

[Meowy Catkin]

The dually is very mild.

I can understand issues with scar tissue. Is the scar big? Could you use something that goes above or below the scar? Did the curb chain lie below the scar rather than on it?

I'm just wondering if it would be worth trying a low ported pelham or kimblewick (would give less poll pressure). Could it have been the mouthpieces on the pelhams that he objected to, rather than the curb chain? Did you try a leather curb or put a soft rubber cover on the curb chain?

RE nosebands - is it the back of the noseband running over the scar tissue that he hated? If yes, then a kineton has no back section, so wouldn't run over the scar.

I wouldn't totally discount bitless after just trying a dually, there are so many different types. However, if the scar tissue means that he just can't tolerate anything under his jaw, then that writes it off as an option unless you go for something without jaw pressure, like a bosal. I have been told that bosals are pretty strong though and must be fitted correctly, so this might make it not possible.

Have you tried any hanging cheeks/bauchers? They keep the bit stiller in the mouth and don't give poll pressure, so maybe he'd like that?

 

[PaulnasherryRocky]

The dually is very mild.

I can understand issues with scar tissue. Is the scar big? Could you use something that goes above or below the scar? Did the curb chain lie below the scar rather than on it?

I'm just wondering if it would be worth trying a low ported pelham or kimblewick (would give less poll pressure). Could it have been the mouthpieces on the pelhams that he objected to, rather than the curb chain? Did you try a leather curb or put a soft rubber cover on the curb chain?

RE nosebands - is it the back of the noseband running over the scar tissue that he hated? If yes, then a kineton has no back section, so wouldn't run over the scar.

I wouldn't totally discount bitless after just trying a dually, there are so many different types. However, if the scar tissue means that he just can't tolerate anything under his jaw, then that writes it off as an option unless you go for something without jaw pressure, like a bosal. I have been told that bosals are pretty strong though and must be fitted correctly, so this might make it not possible.

Have you tried any hanging cheeks/bauchers? They keep the bit stiller in the mouth and don't give poll pressure, so maybe he'd like that?

The scar is about the size of a couple of £2coins placed next to eachother, and is exactly where the back of the nose band runs under his jaw. I think trying a kineton noseband is going to be my first option, as he seems fairly happy in the bit hes got now (happier than the others) just i'm not so happy with the brakes, so if the kineton helps with that it could be a good match.

The curb chain was below the scar and no i didn't try a leather curb chain though I probably should have before writing it off. Hopefully now he is out of the over bending habbit I could gradually go back to using a bit with poll pressure as that was the bit that was most comfortable for myself.

I think rather than it being intolerable for him to have anything running over the scar tissue its more because the skin is not flat or how it should be, things just tend to rub on it like a blister making him uncomfortable

I will put those bits on my list of things to try, though I need to do more research on what a baucher is/does as I've not come across one before

Thanks for you reply, it's given me a few things to think about

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Baucher/hanging cheek

you can get them with various different mouthpieces.

 

[sportsmansB]

What about an old fashioned and not very trendy drop noseband? If the curb chain is below the problem then a drop should be too...

 

[Tern]

Bit bank sounds exactly like what I need thanks!

The first time he had his teeth done it was by my vet, who also said bitting would be trial and error for him, the second time it was a "proper" dentist who said the same about trial and error.

I admit his mouth opening could easily just be a habit he had developed, as the first time he had his teeth done with me the vet said either he had never had them done before or they had not been done for a long time as his teeth were immensely sharp. He's 9 years old and came over from Ireland so I would assume he would have only seen a dentist if it was absolutely desperate

Where is the scar tissue? Will it be touched even with a drop noseband which sits lower than the normal noseband?

Agree with what others have said, try a kineton and full cheek so rings can't get into his mouth. :3

 

[Tern]

Baucher/hanging cheek

you can get them with various different mouthpieces.

IMO I would be wary using a hanging cheek - Made my mare hang and lock her mouth, If he is known to tank he may use the poll pressure to his advantage surely?

 

[PaulnasherryRocky]

Where is the scar tissue? Will it be touched even with a drop noseband which sits lower than the normal noseband?

Agree with what others have said, try a kineton and full cheek so rings can't get into his mouth. :3

Drop noseband shouldn't touch the scar tissue so is definitely an option- lots of things to try- thanks all!

 

[PaulnasherryRocky]

IMO I would be wary using a hanging cheek - Made my mare hang and lock her mouth, If he is known to tank he may use the poll pressure to his advantage surely?

You could be right, though he tanking isn't down to him being a cheeky git, it's more a balance thing for him in the school as out XC and hacking he is never what I would call tanky, being an ex hunter he is far more balanced out in the open than he is in our little school

 

[Beausmate]

Is that bit flexible? as i think he kept his mouth open with the straight bar pelham because there was no give in it to go to the shape of his mouth (if that makes sense?)

I will defo give a kineton a go if i can get hold of it but am reluctant to use anything that will put too much pressure on his nose

thanks!

No, but you can get flexible rubber versions. They aren't as chew resistant though and if your horse has a dry mouth,they can rub.

My horse got rubbed by a Happy Mouth bit, turned out it was the lettering on the mouthpiece that rubbed.

 

[PaulnasherryRocky]

No, but you can get flexible rubber versions. They aren't as chew resistant though and if your horse has a dry mouth,they can rub.

My horse got rubbed by a Happy Mouth bit, turned out it was the lettering on the mouthpiece that rubbed.

Ah in that case it would be a no-go for him, he's big on bit chewing when he's nervous or stressed- he totally bit through his happy mouth snaffle to a sharp horrible mess!

 

[Meowy Catkin]

IMO I would be wary using a hanging cheek - Made my mare hang and lock her mouth, If he is known to tank he may use the poll pressure to his advantage surely?

There is no poll pressure with hanging cheeks!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MmikY9kRhI A slightly annoying video, but they've put a pressure sensor on the bridle that shows no pressure on the poll, infact it has a negative reading when the contact is taken up.

Some horses like the fact that they are pretty still in the mouth. The only way the OP will find out if her horse is in the 'like' or 'dislike' camp is by trying one. Hopefully someone will have one that she can borrow in a mouthpiece that he likes. You need to get both the cheek style and the mouthpiece right.

 

[BSL]

I'm sorry haven't read all replies, but maybe look at myler combination bit, lots of variations, low ports, long/ short shanks etc, and I use a soft faux leather nose band rather than the hard raw hide. The whole thing works on distributing mouth, nose, pole and curb acton. May not be for you, but worth looking at

 

[Elvis]

I know Micklem bridles have been effective with some horses, and the leather work should not interfere with the scar tissue as it lies in different places to a conventional bridle. Or maybe even a grackle bridle, I know my horse preferred a grackle bridle to a flash bridle.

Also have you had his back/saddle checked recently, occasionally discomfort in this region can appear to be a bitting or mouth issue.

 

[pennyturner]

Op says horse went well in pelham, but mouth was open and overbent.

I would start from the pelham as 'went well' is a good place to be. Tackle overbending by using two reins, and only bringing the curb rein into play when you need it.
If you've then got him going well, not overbent, personally I would just give it time and wait for him to relax. The open mouth is likely to close once he gets used to a bit he likes. You might get some joy a little faster with a sweet iron mouthpiece to encourage him to mouth the bit. They really do seem to like the rusty old black stuff.

 

[MrsNorris]

Ah in that case it would be a no-go for him, he's big on bit chewing when he's nervous or stressed- he totally bit through his happy mouth snaffle to a sharp horrible mess!

You could try a sprenger duo mullen mouth in that case then, it's soft and bendy plastic and doesn't crack and get sharp like the happy mouth. I had the exact same problem with the happy mouth, (my horse doesn't do metal bits) but the sprenger is great, have had it for 4 months now and it's still perfect. We were getting through one happy mouth every few weeks due to the cracking and sharpness, nasty things....