Bit shocked..... is this a comon thing?

[ann-jen]

So I've owned Dee for about 2 months now and am trying to piece together a bit of her previous history. I've tried to contact her previous owner on her passport via facebook and am waiting to hear (am hoping I've messaged the right person for a start!) I got her from a dealer hence not knowing much about her.....
Anyway I googled her show name and a you tube video comes up of when she was still with her breeder. She has a foal at foot and would have been less than 3 years old at the time. She looks gangly and like a baby herself in the video. She currently stands at 16.3hh and looks a lot smaller and immature in the video. And obviously unbroken at this point....
I have to confess I was a bit shocked.... it seems odd to me that, as she is obviously a big girl that would need a long time to mature, that she would be put in foal when she was still growing herself.
I understand its a semi-pro breeder she came from and wondered if this is common place in studs of this nature?
Seems a stupid thing to do from my perspective!

 

[Spring Feather]

It's not uncommon for breeders to first breed their young mares at 2, 3 or 4 years old. Some of the thinking behind it is, if she's going to be a competition mare then they like to breed a foal from them prior to them going off competing. Once their competition days are over they may move the mare into the breeding shed and she'll become a broodmare, but because she had a foal earlier in life she wouldn't be a maiden broodmare. Another reason is to see what the mare throws so that later in life they can decide whether she's good broodmare material or not and as such can plan her future.

 

[ann-jen]

Ah so it does sound like this goes on a fair bit. Can't say it seems to have done her any harm but just thought the nutritional demands of having a foal at the same time as growing herself probably this isnt ideal!
Interesting!

 

[Cortez]

Yes it is a fairly common breeding practice for all the reasons Spring Feather has mentioned, and I have bred from some 2 year old mares on occasion myself. As you say, it doesn't seem to have done your mare any harm.

 

[Alexart]

Unfortunately people do breed from 2 and 3yr olds - the only reason being money - there is absolutely no other reason to do it at all, although you'll hear all sorts of excuses as mentioned above as well as 'it happens in the wild blah blah etc etc' but what those people fail to remember is those wild horses are not expected to carry a rider or do anything more strenuous than eat and reproduce!! It's been proven horses weight bearing joints don't fuse till they are 4 or 5 so carrying a foal is like carrying a rider 24/7 so is a really bad idea while the filly itself is still growing! It really annoys me when folk enquire to use our stallion for their 2/3yr old mares - you don't use a colt until it is 4 at least to see how it matures and if it is worth breeding from, so why people do it with fillies just gets my goat!!!!

 

[vieshot]

Not nice. Wouldn't put anything in foal until at least 4. Disgusts me that people put stallions to 2yos. Yuck.

 

[HBM1]

Billy Stud regularly breed their two year olds.

 

[nixxyz]

My last horse was put in foal as a 3 yr old. They backed her early purely to get her to come into season!! ( she eventually ended up at 17.1hh so matured late as it was) I personally dont think horses should be bred until they are mature themselves first.

 

[Cortez]

My last horse was put in foal as a 3 yr old. They backed her early purely to get her to come into season!! ( she eventually ended up at 17.1hh so matured late as it was) I personally dont think horses should be bred until they are mature themselves first.

How does that work then (backing early to bring in season????)

 

[nixxyz]

How does that work then (backing early to bring in season????)

Ive no idea, thats what i was told when she came to me. She wasnt coming into season so they backed her :/ I dont breed so dont know the ins and outs.

 

[DabDab]

Ive no idea, thats what i was told when she came to me. She wasnt coming into season so they backed her :/ I dont breed so dont know the ins and outs.

I've heard that before, and when I inquired what the thinking was behind that I was given a rather odd explanation about the exercise getting the mare's 'systems' going.....don't quite see it myself

 

[Alexart]

Backing a youngster to make it come into season - what a load of drivel!!!!! The only thing that will bring a mare into season is hormones, and they start cycling at 1yr old but may not be obvious to their owner!

 

[TheTrotter.]

Friend of mine has just bought a yearling, was purchased a month ago, (She is about a year and 3 months old now..) her previous owner let her run with a stallion, and filly is now definatly in foal. (Checked by vet..) So she will foal at around 2 years old, we are worried about the effects on the filly, and foal, if anybody has any advice on any extra feeds etc she should be getting during her pregnancy it would be greatly appreciated, owner does not have any experiance breeding (Neither do I!) So I said I would post on here looking for advice, about to start a thread in the breeding section for advice also! Thankyou.

 

[Gloi]

It might be worth speaking to the vet about injecting the mare to abort the foal if she still has 9 months before she is due.

 

[Hedgewitch13]

Babies having babies - not for me I'm afraid. They need all the nutrition for their own growing bodies so having foals at such a young age really isn't fair on them Just my opinion of course...

 

[ann-jen]

Babies having babies - not for me I'm afraid. They need all the nutrition for their own growing bodies so having foals at such a young age really isn't fair on them Just my opinion of course...

I totally agree with you. Plus surely they should have some sort of record as a riding horse before deciding to put in foal IMO. Plus 2 is too young to know if certain health problems may arise :-/

 

[tallyho!]

They are horses, not humans.

In the wild they would start mating at 2 and have foals in their third year. Perfectly natural and normal. Wild horses live a much tougher life than domestic ones and finding nutrition for themselves and growing baby is much harder. Just look at the brumbies or the Rocky Mountain wild herds. They go on to live well into their twenties and gallop about on mountainous, rocky terrain without so much as seeing a dentist or a farrier. They do see vets though on occasion.

Unless you were three day eventing every week, or doing the Tevis cup every weekend, the average rider does in a week a fraction of what wild horses do daily.

 

[ann-jen]

Very true. But they probably don't suffer from developmental joint diseases either as they are not selectively bred for specific characteristics that we look for in riding horses and any that do have issues probably get picked off by predators and don't last long.

 

[NativePonyLover]

Babies having babies - not for me I'm afraid. They need all the nutrition for their own growing bodies so having foals at such a young age really isn't fair on them Just my opinion of course...

Ditto this.

 

[tallyho!]

I wonder how many would be against about heifers being put into calf at a year old for beef... Or milk for your tea...

 

[Spring Feather]

I wonder how many would be against about heifers being put into calf at a year old for beef... Or milk for your tea...

Not me. It's not common at all to do this where I live but I know it does go on in other places in the world and that's up to them. I don't drink milk and I'm a coffee drinker

 

[ridefast]

They suffer from developmental joint disease due to incorrect nutrition

 

[YellowBoots]

There's nothing wrong with it as long as they're fed properly. Most of them get backed/started, then put into foal and turned away to grow up. I think it can actually be good for them- the breeding process means they get a lot of handling in a fairly short window so they usually have good manners!

 

[ann-jen]

Heifers aren't expected to carry the weight of a human for their working lives and remain sound

 

[tallyho!]

Heifers aren't expected to carry the weight of a human for their working lives and remain sound

Besides the point however, they are expected to be nursing and pregnant at the same time for the rest of their useful lives and be expected to be able to walk and run over the pasture. Skme cows do this for 16 years+.

 

[ann-jen]

Yes and my point is, if I was choosing to breed from my mare, it would be because she had proven to be of sound temperament and sound physically first and foremost (plus possibly a good competition record) All of which cannot be determined by 2 years of age. There is a surplus of horses, dogs and cats and you name it in this country because people don't put any thought into it before they breed. Plus breeding from immature stock DOES put excessive strain on their growing bodies. I'd be interested to see if there was any correlation between that and the development of osteochondrosis dissecans for example. I would bet horses bred from very young are more susceptible because there is a nutritional aspect to the disease. Whether cattle get such diseases? Most likely they do but the level of lameness they can live with " to run over pasture" and the level that's acceptable in a riding horse are not the same at all. And if that lameness did get excessive she'd be culled and off to the dinner plate (which the same could probably be said for the lame horse lol)

 

[ridefast]

I'd be interested to see if there was any correlation between that and the development of osteochondrosis dissecans for example. I would bet horses bred from very young are more susceptible because there is a nutritional aspect to the disease.

The nutritional aspect isn't to do with breeding, it's to do with what they're fed. Scrubby natives are expected to cope on rough grazing and hay, so their joints are fine. The "better" bred horses such as thoroughbreds and warmbloods are fed "better" nutrition which is generally feeds very high in protein and molasses, this is what causes OCD. Nothing to do with being in foal or not, it's the "better" feeding. And if your mare had been a gelding she probably would have been broken in and worked from 2/3 years of age, which would have been just as, if not more so, detrimental to joints. It's happened, your horse is fine. Get over it.

 

[ann-jen]

Actually OCD is a multifactorial disease and nutrition is only a part of it. And yes being broken and worked early probably is another factor. Interestingly calcium/phosphorus imbalances can also play a role on the nutritional side. A growing animal has a higher nutritional demand for calcium in its development so bearing that in mind adding the requirements for development of a foetus in the last trimester and following lactation yes I do think this is relevant to putting a skeletally immature animal in foal.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree on what is obviously a contentious subject.
PS it is possible for people to put their POVs across without resorting to being patronising and verging on rude