Bit suggestion or other ideas please.

[Nari]

I'm just bringing my rising 5 sec D back into work after about three months off. He's green, I backed him last summer but mostly just hacked him quietly - he didn't like the school (deep surface in summer), he was a fairly immature 4yo & to be honest I was a little on the large side for him until he filled out a bit. However the holiday has given him time to mature & he now looks a lot stronger & more mature.

In the school he'd always had a tendancy to pull but out hacking he'd been fine so I put it down to immaturity/lack of strength. Long reining in the school he could show signs of it but not as bad, though with hindsight I think that may be because I'd given him some pretty hefty corrections in the long reins

I'm now finding the problem hasn't resolved itself with time. RI & I are toying with what to do for the best - we don't want to overbit him, particularly not at this stage, but I'm not prepared to let it ride any longer as he's going to be quite a solid little chap plus I hate horses that pull. My ID is light as a feather so I'm damned if I'm being tanked around by a rude little cob! He's naturally very forward, isn't really the brightest in the world & has enough stamina that trying to run it out of him isn't a practical option.

RI is for changing the bit but isn't sure what to. Any ideas? I was thinking full cheek single joint snaffle or even, for a short while, a full cheek waterford. I was even toying with a pelham on two reins but she's not keen on that idea & I do appreciate it would be a big change. He's presently in this http://www.shop4bits.com/item--Eldonian-by-Jeffries-Revolver-Full-Cheek-with-Lozenge--BICR23.html

I'm also toying with the idea of leaving his bit as it is but giving him a hefty tug back every time he pulls. It worked in the long reins! I know it sounds awful but do you really think it would be such a bad tactic? I'm wondering if, in my determination not to hold him to Jim's standards, I've actually let him get away with a bit too much & he just needs reminding who's in charge.

Any other suggestions are welcome, I'd like to stop this now before it becomes a real issue.

By the way his teeth, saddle & back have been checked & aren't a problem.

 

[teddyt]

Is he pulling because he is strong or could it be because he is on his forehand? Particularly in the school you are asking for the hindquarters to do more work, which being young and untrained he finds hard so he is more likely to lean, hence why feels like he does it more in the school. If on the forehand it also takes them longer to pull up and the horse tends to 'run'.
I personally believe the only time you should ever pull a horse in the mouth is if you are getting taken off with, then its a safety issue. Otherwise you should never pull hard on the reins, the mouth is very sensitive and you will be inflicting pain. Pulling on the bit IMO only ever makes things worse. If the horse is pulling because its unbalanced then tugging on the reins wont improve things, just gives the horse a sore mouth and invites more problems.
Waterfords can help with horses that lean or grab the bit. Ive found that single jointed bits often make horses pull more because they pinch the tongue.
As your horse has only just been bought back into work i would persevere with exercises to get him to carry himself and use his hindquarters more. Getting a balanced horse takes years but you should start to see an improvement in a couple of months with consistant training. Lots of transitions, pole work, lateral work, etc all help to build the hind quarters.
Good luck!

 

[Nari]

Teddyt he's actually pulling, you can even see him set his jaw to do it. On the forehand &/or unbalanced I could totally understand & deal with, he's not my first youngster & so I've had that issue before. I've also put my RI up on him, partly to see i I was the problem & partly so I could see what was happening. He was no better with her & she agrees that it isn't heaviness, a lack of balance or a lack of understanding - he can be light enough when it suits him. Likewise the forwardness isn't running on due to lack of balance, he's just very forward & will use any lapse in rider/handler concentration to whizz off.

I actually agree with you about the pulling the mouth. A small part of me does feel that he's quite happy to haul me though & maybe a short sharp wake up call would be kinder than upping the bitting or a constantly too heavy hand.

To be honest if he carries on like this then in a couple of months he's going to have no mouth left anyway & I'm going to be ready to kill the little sod. Transitions make him hotter & all the more enthusiastic about whizzing off, there's no way he's ready for lateral work yet & he'll merrily plough through poles without the slightest regard for them (don't think he's going to be that much of a jumper

). RI has years of experience with youngsters but she's slightly unsure of the best way to go with him now - she thinks that a lot of this is plain rudeness on his part, is reluctant to put a stronger bit in a green horse but we know the problem needs sorting sooner rather than later.

 

[brea2006]

i use a wilkie style bit on my sec d and he is nearly four- he works better in this because it is more clear what i am asking of him,and that it is a thinner bit- fat cob tongue, plus you can use it in showing- has neat small rings.
i previously tried him in a happy mouth and a loose ring snaffle.

http://www.thesaddleryshop.co.uk/P/Loop_Ring_Wilkie_Jointed_Snaffle-(326).aspx

 

[hellybelly6]

How are his teeth?

I would consider a flash/grackle noseband and schooling and lots of work in hand.

 

[Nari]

Teeth are fine, checked every 6 months.

I can't see how a flash or grackle would help, he doesn't open his mouth or cross his jaw just sets & pulls. Would they be any use in that case? Schooling will be done but I really think sorting this has to be a first step otherwise he's going to end up with a ruined mouth - I can manhandle him if I have to but it's not a route I intend to take.

In long reins he's fine - seriously, he's fine. Maybe a few flashes of it in the first five minutes if I haven't done anything with him for a few days but that's all. But I suspect that he's reacting to body language as much as the long reins - I can pretty much control what he does when someone else long reinbs him just by how I stand or look.

 

[Nari]

Brea2006 I thought I'd replied to you - goodness knows where it went! A friend has one of those bits so I may ask her if I can borrow it & see how he goes. Thanks.

 

[hellybelly6]

As he is leaning I would consider a waterford full check with keepers on the cheeks. The wilkie snaffle has a very mild gag action and is also good for leaners.

 

[Nari]

Right I'll give him the benefit of the doubt tomorrow then, if he's still acting like a tank, see about borrowing a waterford or wilkie. Thanks.

 

[annret]

Poor you!

What I would say is that if I were you, I'd try a completely different approach. I'd either put him in a Nathe Straight bar -
This is the cheapest place for them (http://divoza.co.uk/product917.aspx) - which has exceptional feel OR a 'magic' bit cambridge snaffle - (http://www.shop4bits.com/item--Cambridge-Mouth-Loose-Ring-magic-bit--Cambridge-Mouth-Loose-Ring.html)

From the sounds of it, he does sound as if he will continue to push the boundaries so if you put him in anything stronger, he'll quickly become deadened to it as he doesn't yet understand the signals.

I would firmly establish voice commands in lungeing and do lots of transition work to keep him engaged and balanced; I'd also try a kineton noseband (divoza are also the cheapest for them that I've seen) if he continues to pull.

If you really feel you need a stronger bit, Sprenger Turnados are FANTASTIC - they're single jointed but my mare goes amazingly well in hers - I got one on ebay for about £6 -
http://www.shop4bits.com/item--Sprenger-...588+-+16mm.html

If none of this works, I'd introduce a hackamore for a spell and reintroduce the bit later.

 

[Nari]

I tried a nathe straight bar with loose rings last autumn - I wondered if despite having the dentist he was unhappy in his mouth - but it was a disaster. He merrily hauled away & I felt that he was only just under control.

I really do think he understands perfectly well, he's just chosing not to listen if i doesn't suit him. On the lunge & in the long reins he responds very well to voice & rein aids, but even there he'll be argumentative & pull for the first few minutes or if he gets excited.

Kineton noseband - I hadn't thought of that but now you mention it it may well work. Can I use it with a full cheek?

 

[hellybelly6]

I would like to add something, straight bar bits tend to encourage leaners to lean even more.

Also as I said earlier, work in hand teaching him boundaries and how to respond to requests for forward, back, etc. Once this is established, continue his education when mounted, teaching him to yield and soften.

 

[annret]

Ok, shame about the nathe! They're fab bits. But Highlandponylass is right, sometimes leaners will take hold of them even more - it's just that I'd rather have a youngster who's strong in the softest of bits than soft in the harshest of bits until everything's established so I thought i'd suggest it anyway. Sorry if I came across as patronising!

You shouldn't really use a full cheek with a kineton but I have seen it done with a full cheek that's a little larger in size than would otherwise be used, and a keeper.

 

[kerilli]

i'd put a spare stirrup leather round his neck and teach him to halt to a tug on that and a voice command. then, if he gets rude, you can use that and not pull at his mouth, at least for a while.
i second the suggestion of trying a full cheek waterford... ideally with a loose drop noseband.
another idea would be a myler combination. the whole point of these (they were designed for western riding) is that you have little/no contact and then, if you need it, it is a sharp command... which you then release again to reward the horse as soon as he has responded. it might work to shock him into having a bit of respect for you and the bit.
i'd also school him bareback in your normal snaffle (whatever you are using now) and see if he does it at all. if not, it could well be the saddle... even if it has been professionally fitted, etc etc etc, sometimes certain horses just do not like the feel of certain saddles. at the very least i'd put a prolite under it and see whether that helps too.

 

[Nari]

Annret I didn't think you sounded patronising & certainly the nathe had been my first try in case a "less is more" approach worked. He doesn't have to have a full cheek, it's just I like them for greenies, so if I try the kineton then I'll use a normal ring. I really do think that may be useful for him.

Kerilli I'm not convinced the neckstrap will work but I don't suppose there's any harm in trying it. I'll bear the Myler combination in mind, but to be honest I'd rather get something cheaper! And I'm not getting on him bareback to school - unless it makes a huge I'll end up pulled up his neck then getting bombed off with round the school at a flying welsh cob trot. Ouch!!!! Interestingly I've tried the Prolite idea already & it didn't make the slightest difference to him.

 

[Nari]

Well I borrowed a friend's wilkis & long reined in it a couple of times then rode him today. The difference was remarkable - well it was after he threw a tantrum in the long reins, lunged forwards & hit himself on it! He didn't think much of that at all & has been very polite ever since ;D. Seriously though, he lost so much of the muscle bracing in his neck & jaw it was like riding a different pony & because he's softer the lack of full cheeks for steering is less of an issue. Ok it's a bit all or nothing at the moment but that I can live with because I'm now in a position to school him without fighting & I'll be able to use my leg without worrying about leaving the country.

Thanks for the ideas everyone, I may still need some of them because I think he could have some interesting moments before we're finished! Welsh cobs, who'd have them?!