Bits and Bitting - Has it all gone OTT?

No I don't find it OTT, as it obviously works (whatever the reason) for many people.

I think that the hands at the end of the reins also make a massive difference to what type of bit works best. I know that I ride most effectively when using a French link, either eggbutt or hanging cheek. So everything gets backed and schooled in one of those unless their is some kind of issue or they are progressing to a double bridle. I can't abide the feel of a single jointed or straight mouthpiece without shanks and I ride like a tool with a loose ring. Also have never quite worked out what full cheeks are for :o

I like having fancy stuff available to play about with in a double bridle though
 
Wheels said:
Well the lips are soft and so is the tongue, they compress a fair amount. Studies have shown that the vast majority of jointed snaffles be that single or double joints behave in a very similar way. When a contact is taken the bit is raised in the mouth and the cannons begin to wrap around the tongue and lower jaw. Different lozenge size, angle and curvature will allow different parts of the tongue to receive more or less pressure but there is still pressure across all of the tongue.

The reason this is important is if there was no compression on the centre of the tongue then the bit would hit the palate
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Wheels, it makes exactly the same shape as my NS big ported Weymouth, which is why I originally bought it, so the two would match.

Have you got one? If you have and it's not working that way, you've got the wrong size!

It's a very cleverly designed bit, called 'the bent' for a reason.
 
As the mouthpiece doesn't lock into position then it cannot have the same action as a ported no joint bit. It might look like it has the same shape when you hold it in place but when in the horses mouth it will always bend at the joints. The only exceptions to this are the likes of the stubben control bits or whatever they are called that actually lock into place and make them more like a curved / Mullen mouth, sprenger do a similar one and I'm sure others do to but I don't think the verbindend works like that.
 
Wheels said:
As the mouthpiece doesn't lock into position then it cannot have the same action as a ported no joint bit. It might look like it has the same shape when you hold it in place but when in the horses mouth it will always bend at the joints. The only exceptions to this are the likes of the stubben control bits or whatever they are called that actually lock into place and make them more like a curved / Mullen mouth, sprenger do a similar one and I'm sure others do to but I don't think the verbindend works like that.
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Have you got one? Do you use one?

No, it will NOT 'always flex at the joints' if your contact is consistent and the bit is the right size for the bend to act as they are intended. It ports.
 
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Wheels said:
And what language does verbindend mean 'the bent'?

No I don't have one, have handled them and have used one
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My A Level German let me down :D

I suggest you get hold of one and do the thumb test I told you about several posts ago. I find it simple to demonstrate to people how it forms a stable port in the mouth, with the correct size bit and a consistent contact.
 
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Cortez said:
Ah, but that's the thing: these "professionals" are often not. As in they've done a "course", often only a few days, and with manufacturers, not real, practical horsemen, and don't necessarily have the actual experience to really know what happens in the long term, with the whole horse. By all means get help, but don't rely on what are in effect sales reps to really know very much more than you do. It's easy to spout lots of technical terms and theory without knowing how something works. I have listened with genuine interest to "Master Saddlers" and "Bit Fitters" but haven't heard anything which would convince me to start following their advice. I did let a saddler fiddle around with one of my saddles once but ended up taking out all the "adjustments" as the horse was not happy, and I could see that the shape was all wrong.

People really should educate themselves; it's not rocket science.
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Agreed. Some years ago a certain lady bit seller from England was flavour of the month with the BHS and came to NI several times to do talks (ie plug her wares). She sold a client of mine a bit which cost around £100. Client came for a lesson, and I have never seen a more unhappy horse or frustrated rider. Eventually I asked if I could change the bit, put in a simple bit costing £11.99 and the difference was instant and dramatic.

Unfortunately the client then thought that as her horse was now going so well she no longer needed lessons :D
 
Wheels said:
I'm not going to argue with you. You would state black was white if it suited you.
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I'm not arguing with you, I'm telling you to go and fetch one and try it the way I told you, with your thumbs as bars. I'm describing what I see with my own eyes, but you only want to talk theoretical action and tell me I don't see what I do see.

Had a bad day? What need is there to be rude?
 
Cortez said:
That is essentially a kimblewick with a 3-link snaffle mouthpiece. The hooks are flat polo hooks (very good if your horse gets pinched by the chain). I find that most cobs go better in some form of a curb, it helps them not only in the mouth but also with getting up off their front ends, but a broken mouthpiece in a curb can be very confusing for horses.
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But its not just a kimblewick with a link. As i said it all moves independently yet if direct pressure is on it it locks into a straight bar.

Theres a lot of waffle but from about 49seconds onwards you can see how it locks and unlocks, although this is the Stubben version, mine is Sprenger. They are exactly the same design wise though. Mine certainly doesnt go in this like he does in a butterfly with a single, double or mullen, only on the top ring so effectively a kimblewick action.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFY66wA-fAo
 
Photo for you Wheels.

My thumbs are the bars/lips, my fingers are pulling gently on the reins. The bit is ported, and remains ported if the contact is maintained. The port matches exactly the shape of the large ported 45 degree tilt Weymouth also made by NS. In not putting any strong pressure anywhere in that photo, it does that at a featherlight touch.


IMG_20180112_192317.jpg
 
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I'm done arguing with you Wheels. I've shown you what I mean about how the Verbindend works.
 
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On the fence about all the different bits... personally I feel more horrified at the lack of simple cavesson nosebands.... where are they all? Everything is a crank, flash and other "gobby horse" stoppers. Perhaps the horses wouldn't be so gobby if the hands weren't so grabby?
 
I already said I'm not arguing lol

I am trying to understand where you are coming from and what you mean but I won't partake in your experiment because it is flawed. It in no way mimics what happens in the horses mouth.
 
tallyho! said:
On the fence about all the different bits... personally I feel more horrified at the lack of simple cavesson nosebands.... where are they all? Everything is a crank, flash and other "gobby horse" stoppers. Perhaps the horses wouldn't be so gobby if the hands weren't so grabby?
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Or if they were comfortable in their mouths with appropriate bitting.
 
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