Bitting Advice

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elisha

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Hi all,

Was just wondering if any one could help me.. I have a 15.1 Warmblood X Irish Draft, I've had her over 3 years now and she never feels fully comfortable in which ever bit I try her in. She's currently in a Neue Schule loose ring turtle top snaffle. She can be very forward and very sensitive off the leg, which in turn she can become quite heavy. She has a high head carriage and constantly avaids any type of contact - but on a loose contact she still has her head in the air. She doesn't feel comfortable at all, I've had her teeth done and everything so its purely just a case of finding a bit that's right for her!

Just wondered if anyone could suggest trialling something that may be better for her?

Thank youuu!! :)
 
See if you can attend a bit clinic, there are so many bits to choose from it can be a minefield. We have recently had James Cooling run a clinic on our yard (East Yorkshire) he did an assessment of each horses mouth, saw them being ridden and advised on bits to try.
 
RhaLoulou said:
See if you can attend a bit clinic, there are so many bits to choose from it can be a minefield. We have recently had James Cooling run a clinic on our yard (East Yorkshire) he did an assessment of each horses mouth, saw them being ridden and advised on bits to try.
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Yeah I’ve had a look into these and arranged for someone to come and and got let down then never heard anything from them but this is something that I’m really interested in so will have a look for him as I’m in West Yorkshire. Thank you 😊
 
I’ve had her in various different snaffles, French link loose ring with copper lozenge, she’s had plastic ones and I had to replace them a fair bit as she just chewed on them constantly, as said above there’s so many I just don’t know where to go next 😊
 
For me this doesn't seem like a bitting issue at all. More like a tack / back or schooling one. What steps have you taken to rule out pain?
 
The Prima Donna has been a bit of an interesting one to bit. She hates lozenges, rollers or any sort of link in the middle. Happy mouths are too thick for her small mouth. She's not strong though but shes fussy in the mouth , and if she doesn't like a bit, she'll back off and buck/hump/you name it, but the quietest I've got her is in a hanging cheek single jointed.
She will actually go very sweetly in this and will only get a bit fussy if she gets tense.
 
Shay said:
For me this doesn't seem like a bitting issue at all. More like a tack / back or schooling one. What steps have you taken to rule out pain?
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it certainly isn't a pain issue, she's not the type of mare to suffer in silence, she would let me know if she was in pain. She is just unhappy in her mouth
 
scats said:
The Prima Donna has been a bit of an interesting one to bit. She hates lozenges, rollers or any sort of link in the middle. Happy mouths are too thick for her small mouth. She's not strong though but shes fussy in the mouth , and if she doesn't like a bit, she'll back off and buck/hump/you name it, but the quietest I've got her is in a hanging cheek single jointed.
She will actually go very sweetly in this and will only get a bit fussy if she gets tense.
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I've not tried her in a hanging cheek yet so might have to give that one a go.. she's had a single joint before and that just brings her head higher. I was thinking of trying something with a bit more poll pressure...
 
elisha said:
it certainly isn't a pain issue, she's not the type of mare to suffer in silence, she would let me know if she was in pain. She is just unhappy in her mouth
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She is telling you she is not happy which can be a sign of pain or discomfort elsewhere, the focus is on her mouth but in my experience it is rarely a mouth issue and is nearly always caused by tension somewhere, it is a schooling issue or a combination of both, horses don't constantly avoid any contact if they are totally comfortable, finding the "right" bit may help but the key is probably looking at the whole horse and going back to basics with the schooling, 3 years is a long while to be making no real progress on a horse that is uncomfortable even if it is just her mouth.
 
be positive said:
She is telling you she is not happy which can be a sign of pain or discomfort elsewhere, the focus is on her mouth but in my experience it is rarely a mouth issue and is nearly always caused by tension somewhere, it is a schooling issue or a combination of both, horses don't constantly avoid any contact if they are totally comfortable, finding the "right" bit may help but the key is probably looking at the whole horse and going back to basics with the schooling, 3 years is a long while to be making no real progress on a horse that is uncomfortable even if it is just her mouth.
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she's had her teeth done (and has them checked regularly) and her back scanned and checked with no problems at all, so I know for sure she definitely isn't in pain, ive had massages and things on her also. she comes from a damaged background and it has taken me 3 years to build the trust that I have got with her today. I have spoken to one of her previous owners has also said the same. she's a weird one and I think until you've met her people don't understand which is why I was just looking for advice. She is funny around her mouth anyway and is quite ticklish so if I undo her flash and leave it dangling she goes mad, hence why I tried a turtle top to stop the vibrations of the lozenge, she's more accepting of this one more than others I've tried but I'm still not happy with it.
 
I have to say that if the head carriage is unnaturally high when ridden even on a loose rein I'd assume some kind of (quite likely non mouth) discomfort.

What is her carriage like when lunged in a head collar? What about in her bridle? Saddle? With rider (but no contact, controlled by the person lunging)...

Of course you could always try bitless (in a safe place, maybe after she has got as settled as she does ridden, with someone else around, yada, yada, you can just pop two lead reins onto a reasonably well fitting head collar to try it out) to confirm for yourself that there is definite issue specifically with the bit.

In fact you can get very cheap (ie less than the price of some individual bits you might try!) endurance style convertible bridles where the bit can be clipped on/off so you can then try both with different bits and without any at all very easily.

Edited to add: just seen your reply OP - first thing I'd do is take the flash off altogether. If she isn't comfortable with a particular bit strapping her mouth closed onto it could def make her raise her head to try to avoid it and it isn't really fair on her. I mean if the flash was working there might be some point - but if you genuinely believe the bit doesn't suit her and she isn't going well in the flash I'd ditch it until you find a bit she can go nicely in.
 
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GirlFriday said:
I have to say that if the head carriage is unnaturally high when ridden even on a loose rein I'd assume some kind of (quite likely non mouth) discomfort.

What is her carriage like when lunged in a head collar? What about in her bridle? Saddle? With rider (but no contact, controlled by the person lunging)...

Of course you could always try bitless (in a safe place, maybe after she has got as settled as she does ridden, with someone else around, yada, yada, you can just pop two lead reins onto a reasonably well fitting head collar to try it out) to confirm for yourself that there is definite issue specifically with the bit.

In fact you can get very cheap (ie less than the price of some individual bits you might try!) endurance style convertible bridles where the bit can be clipped on/off so you can then try both with different bits and without any at all very easily.
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I don't know how to explain it really but she's more forward in the school than out hacking, its like when she's in a closed space she knows she's safe and becomes more forward, skittish etc. if that makes sense? out hacking you can hack her on buckle end and she's relaxed, stretched out etc. this is simply just discomfort in the mouth she isn't in pain I've had everything checked. as said above she didn't come from a brilliant home when I got her and can still be a nervous wreck today. she is a funny one but until you've met her or seen her you cant truly gauge what I'm trying to say. thank you I think I'm just going to have to keep trialling some bits.
 
For me this still suggests pain elsewhere. When you are not asking her to work "correctly" and just hacking her head comes down and she relaxes. You gather her up in the school - and you say you like dressage so I presume you are asking her to do at least basic movements - and she resists.

Absolutely take the flash off - that cannot be helping. Also you have said she has had her back scanned - but not if she has had a full lameness workup, or when her saddle fit was last checked. Yes a different bit might help - try calling the bit bank and discussing your needs. But perhaps also get a good instructor who an see what is happening and perhaps advise if there are any issues with schooling, ridden position etc. If you haven't had her saddle fit professionally checked recently definitely do that anyway. My hunch is that there is pain in the poll area - I had an Appie from an abusive background with a very similar issue. But I do take your point that on a written description it is hard to tell - I'm only responding from my own experience. But if not poll I would be wondering about hock issues.
 
My youngster was like this and I thought it was all to do with her mouth. Part of it was, as she has a very shallow bit seat so only very slim bits are comfortable for her. I now have her in a Myler. However, I felt she had problems elsewhere. But vet and physio said her back was fine and she had no pain issues that could be causing her problem. The saddler also checked her saddle (a close contact Pessoa jump saddle) and said it fitted her well and was not the cause of her issues. She would rear and buck and hold her head up high resenting any contact. But then I had a break through, I tried an old dressage saddle on her and suddenly she was a changed horse. No more rearing, no more kicking out in canter, and she accepted the bit and now works through her back in a nice outline. After experimenting with other saddles checked by the saddler, we realised that her problem was with any forward cut saddles. She obviously hated the panels impinging her shoulder. I have tried the Harry Dabbs future jump saddle which she loved, but it kept coming forwards on her and tipping back, so I am still looking for a forward cut saddle with cut back panels, but at least I know what her problem is now.

OP, I agree with the others who are saying the problem is probably pain elsewhere. Are you sure she is happy in her saddle?
 
Shay said:
For me this still suggests pain elsewhere. When you are not asking her to work "correctly" and just hacking her head comes down and she relaxes. You gather her up in the school - and you say you like dressage so I presume you are asking her to do at least basic movements - and she resists.

Absolutely take the flash off - that cannot be helping. Also you have said she has had her back scanned - but not if she has had a full lameness workup, or when her saddle fit was last checked. Yes a different bit might help - try calling the bit bank and discussing your needs. But perhaps also get a good instructor who an see what is happening and perhaps advise if there are any issues with schooling, ridden position etc. If you haven't had her saddle fit professionally checked recently definitely do that anyway. My hunch is that there is pain in the poll area - I had an Appie from an abusive background with a very similar issue. But I do take your point that on a written description it is hard to tell - I'm only responding from my own experience. But if not poll I would be wondering about hock issues.
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Thanks for the advice but until you have met this horse I don't think you quite understand my issue here. I would love to try riding without a flash but there would not be a chance, she takes the bit and runs, again not because she's in pain, because she has an attitude and likes to try it on. my issue here isn't pain she has had everything checked. I do have a very good instructor who has advised it is a bitting problem. I asked for advice on a bit as I know my horse and she is categorically not in pain. thanks :)
 
Wagtail said:
My youngster was like this and I thought it was all to do with her mouth. Part of it was, as she has a very shallow bit seat so only very slim bits are comfortable for her. I now have her in a Myler. However, I felt she had problems elsewhere. But vet and physio said her back was fine and she had no pain issues that could be causing her problem. The saddler also checked her saddle (a close contact Pessoa jump saddle) and said it fitted her well and was not the cause of her issues. She would rear and buck and hold her head up high resenting any contact. But then I had a break through, I tried an old dressage saddle on her and suddenly she was a changed horse. No more rearing, no more kicking out in canter, and she accepted the bit and now works through her back in a nice outline. After experimenting with other saddles checked by the saddler, we realised that her problem was with any forward cut saddles. She obviously hated the panels impinging her shoulder. I have tried the Harry Dabbs future jump saddle which she loved, but it kept coming forwards on her and tipping back, so I am still looking for a forward cut saddle with cut back panels, but at least I know what her problem is now.

OP, I agree with the others who are saying the problem is probably pain elsewhere. Are you sure she is happy in her saddle?
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I kind of get the feeling I need something that gives her more room in her mouth and was going to look at trying a myler, could you suggest one? I can assure you this horse isn't in pain, shes happy with her saddle, shes had her teeth done, back checked, the works. theres just something that isn't quite clicking in her mouth, ive spoken to the bit bank before at bramham this year, explained my issues (with my instructor there - hes known her for however long ive has her) and was going to get them to come out and do a clinic with different bits for me to try, they cancelled and haven't heard anything since, really disappointed as this is something id really like to do just to get a professional opinion!
 
elisha said:
I kind of get the feeling I need something that gives her more room in her mouth and was going to look at trying a myler, could you suggest one? I can assure you this horse isn't in pain, shes happy with her saddle, shes had her teeth done, back checked, the works. theres just something that isn't quite clicking in her mouth, ive spoken to the bit bank before at bramham this year, explained my issues (with my instructor there - hes known her for however long ive has her) and was going to get them to come out and do a clinic with different bits for me to try, they cancelled and haven't heard anything since, really disappointed as this is something id really like to do just to get a professional opinion!
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As mine's a youngster and only a few months under saddle, I opted for the Myler mullen barrel with full cheeks. I currently don't use any noseband as they tend to interfere with the end of the full cheeks, but I do use keepers. My girl is a lot happier which the keepers as the bit stays very still in her mouth and she doesn't fuss with it. Shee also chewed through a few plastic bits on my way to finding one she was comfortable with.
 
she doesn't buck/rear etc. she's not naughty. she is very forward and when asked to use that energy to work into a nice contact she just simply isn't accepting the bit. maybe I was misunderstood when I said she has a high head carriage, it isn't overly high its just when she comes into the school and she's "fizzy" and fresh and wants to go. cooling down after being schooled she will stretch out nicely. she has a very chunky neck and when I got her it was almost upside down (all muscle underneath - none on top) this was because her old owner didn't abuse her as such but she was a nervous wreck, constantly tense, head high in the air. I'm just stuck as to where to go next with a bit that might sit right with her and she will accept it. :)
 
Wagtail said:
As mine's a youngster and only a few months under saddle, I opted for the Myler mullen barrel with full cheeks. I currently don't use any noseband as they tend to interfere with the end of the full cheeks, but I do use keepers. My girl is a lot happier which the keepers as the bit stays very still in her mouth and she doesn't fuss with it. Shee also chewed through a few plastic bits on my way to finding one she was comfortable with.
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Thanks for that, I think I might have to give a myler a try, I don't think she likes the joints personally so something with no joint is definitely worth a try!
 
Try a mullen mouth hanging cheek. It made a big difference to my fussy boy. I have the Myler version as it was the only one big enough for him but there are cheaper versions. Having said that the Myler has a nice thin mouthpiece with quite a pronounced curve and I think this gives him plenty of room for his enormous tongue so I feel it is probably better (for him at least) than the cheaper makes.
 
annagain said:
Try a mullen mouth hanging cheek. It made a big difference to my fussy boy. I have the Myler version as it was the only one big enough for him but there are cheaper versions. Having said that the Myler has a nice thin mouthpiece with quite a pronounced curve and I think this gives him plenty of room for his enormous tongue so I feel it is probably better (for him at least) than the cheaper makes.
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She's also got a big typical Warmblood tongue so sounds like something similar... I think I'm definitely going to give something like this a go and see if she feels better in it! thank youuu :)
 
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