Bitting an old tank/cow

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Lakeside1988

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I have had a 25 yo Dales x (in good shape) since 2016, she came with 15 years worth of tack and from photos seems she's done everything in a flash, running martingale and Dutch 3 ring gag always.
I've replaced all old battered tack and ditched the martingale, now riding in a flash with said Dutch gag changing to a French link snaffle for schooling.
I'm at the stage now where I know her tricks and I'm attempting to deal with them through regular lessons. I'm not the most confident rider but I try really hard to catch up on the ten plus years between riding gaps (I'm 29).
I have begun to turn down all offers to hack out with more than 1 other horse and fun rides as I don't enjoy being tanked off with by an old cow bag with a thick set neck, no brakes and a must win mentality.
I was nervous posting this so please be kind I am genuinely looking for a new bit to feel safe in. I understand I need to sit back but easier said than done when she grabs it and runs. I'm desperate to join my friends and say yes to all new experiences but this is holding me back and causes me worry.
I've just spent the last 2 hours trawling through old threads but some don't apply and some are so old I wonder whether they still hold weight?
I tried a friends Waterford and made no difference what else can I try that could potentially change everything? Can be taught to use new kit by instructor if necessary.
Many thanks
 
Lakeside1988 said:
I have had a 25 yo Dales x (in good shape) since 2016, she came with 15 years worth of tack and from photos seems she's done everything in a flash, running martingale and Dutch 3 ring gag always.
I've replaced all old battered tack and ditched the martingale, now riding in a flash with said Dutch gag changing to a French link snaffle for schooling.
I'm at the stage now where I know her tricks and I'm attempting to deal with them through regular lessons. I'm not the most confident rider but I try really hard to catch up on the ten plus years between riding gaps (I'm 29).
I have begun to turn down all offers to hack out with more than 1 other horse and fun rides as I don't enjoy being tanked off with by an old cow bag with a thick set neck, no brakes and a must win mentality.
I was nervous posting this so please be kind I am genuinely looking for a new bit to feel safe in. I understand I need to sit back but easier said than done when she grabs it and runs. I'm desperate to join my friends and say yes to all new experiences but this is holding me back and causes me worry.
I've just spent the last 2 hours trawling through old threads but some don't apply and some are so old I wonder whether they still hold weight?
I tried a friends Waterford and made no difference what else can I try that could potentially change everything? Can be taught to use new kit by instructor if necessary.
Many thanks
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it sounds as if you are finding out why she brought with her the tack that she did! I found a NS Universal, with 2 reins and a curb strap, worked very well with a set in her ways very strong Draft horse. The two reins mean that the rider can ride on the snaffle most of the time but bring the curb rein into play if necessary. I always used a cavesson noseband with this bit. I really don't like strapping horses' mouths shut.
 
It probably isn't what you want to hear but schooling and lessons from a good instructor are the way forward. Sometimes less is more with bits, so ask your instructor to teach you how to use your core to slow her. You can practice this with a neckstrap. Making sure that your new tack really fits is crucial too as a horse can run away from discomfort. Has she had her teeth done recently? if not, I'd have that checked out before you go any further. Knowing everything is right with your horse can boost your confidence too and then you can concentrate on making progress with her. Once you are ready then ask a bit expert - Neue Schule or the Bit Bank are worth a try.
 
Yes I understand but unfortunately I think she knows exactly how to play the Dutch gag game by now! After all my reading tonight I was hoping for some double rein advice thank you so much. Excuse my ignorance but would it be acceptable to try the universal in my bridle with flash removed and stick another pair of reins on or is a new specific bridle required? I also don't like the flash much but have been told it should prevent her yanking me down when she's feeling rude/I'm concentrating on 9 million other things...
 
ozpoz said:
It probably isn't what you want to hear but schooling and lessons from a good instructor are the way forward. Sometimes less is more with bits, so ask your instructor to teach you how to use your core to slow her. You can practice this with a neckstrap. Making sure that your new tack really fits is crucial too as a horse can run away from discomfort. Has she had her teeth done recently? if not, I'd have that checked out before you go any further. Knowing everything is right with your horse can boost your confidence too and then you can concentrate on making progress with her. Once you are ready then ask a bit expert - Neue Schule or the Bit Bank are worth a try.
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I wish I could show you how hard I'm trying and how far I've come in two years! I love my old girl and I've spent the last year with a physio and lovely new saddle fitter getting that right, her teeth aren't great anymore but they are regularly maintained.
 
Lakeside1988 said:
Yes I understand but unfortunately I think she knows exactly how to play the Dutch gag game by now! After all my reading tonight I was hoping for some double rein advice thank you so much. Excuse my ignorance but would it be acceptable to try the universal in my bridle with flash removed and stick another pair of reins on or is a new specific bridle required? I also don't like the flash much but have been told it should prevent her yanking me down when she's feeling rude/I'm concentrating on 9 million other things...
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A flash holds the mouth shut and that ime is its only function, so the horse can pull down with its mouth shut. I can't say that I know many horses that pull/lean with their mouths open, although of course I am sure there are some.
I am not sure what you mean by the dutch gag game? That bit should be used with 2 reins. Your usual bridle should be fine but make sure that your reins are not too thick, or you will struggle to hold both sets. You need to be able to distinguish between them quickly too, if you are not used to using 2 reins, so perhaps have one set plaited.

ETA some horses past experiences mean that in order for the average owner/rider to have any success, they need a different bit from a simple snaffle. the most important thing is being able to stop, for the horse's safety as well as the rider's.
 
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Pearlsasinger said:
A flash holds the mouth shut and that ime is its only function, so the horse can pull down with its mouth shut. I can't say that I know many horses that pull/lean with their mouths open, although of course I am sure there are some.
I am not sure what you mean by the dutch gag game? That bit should be used with 2 reins. Your usual bridle should be fine but make sure that your reins are not too thick, or you will struggle to hold both sets. You need to be able to distinguish between them quickly too, if you are not used to using 2 reins, so perhaps have one set plaited
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I just meant that she's been in the same bit for more than half her life so may not have the desired effect anymore?!
I have only used one set of reins as didn't know differently and interestingly all old pictures show the same. I will of course pop another pair on straight away and thank you I've never ridden with two reins before and like the plaited idea
 
I'd try a kimblewick They tend to work well on these sorts of horses. At 25 there really is a limit to how much you can do schooling wise, so you need something that works now so you can get on and enjoy her!
 
ozpoz said:
It probably isn't what you want to hear but schooling and lessons from a good instructor are the way forward. Sometimes less is more with bits, so ask your instructor to teach you how to use your core to slow her. You can practice this with a neckstrap. Making sure that your new tack really fits is crucial too as a horse can run away from discomfort. Has she had her teeth done recently? if not, I'd have that checked out before you go any further. Knowing everything is right with your horse can boost your confidence too and then you can concentrate on making progress with her. Once you are ready then ask a bit expert - Neue Schule or the Bit Bank are worth a try.
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This ⬆️
 
I used to pop a Pelham on my draft for hacking. He had a French link normally but that enormous Ardennes neck could tuck itself into his chest and off he'd tank. He'd never go far (too unfit and arthritic), but the lack of manners p'd me off.

One ride with 2 reins on a Pelham and he realised that the curb was uncomfortable if he tanked. Within a week I could have the curb rein loose.

Mine was just being rude. Retired now but I've still got his super sized bit because if I ever take him out for a potter it's going back on!
 
Leo Walker said:
I'd try a kimblewick They tend to work well on these sorts of horses. At 25 there really is a limit to how much you can do schooling wise, so you need something that works now so you can get on and enjoy her!
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Yes had the set in her ways conversation with a few people now, will add kimblewick to my list brilliant thank you!
 
Leo Walker said:
I'd try a kimblewick They tend to work well on these sorts of horses. At 25 there really is a limit to how much you can do schooling wise, so you need something that works now so you can get on and enjoy her!
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Kimblewick or my favourite, a Cambridge snaffle.

FWIW a properly fitted flash does NOT "hold the mouth shut", it drives me bonkers when I hear this!!! Fitted correctly it allows movement of the jaw but prevents the horse from OPENING the mouth and evading the bit/aids.
 
SEL said:
I used to pop a Pelham on my draft for hacking. He had a French link normally but that enormous Ardennes neck could tuck itself into his chest and off he'd tank. He'd never go far (too unfit and arthritic), but the lack of manners p'd me off.

One ride with 2 reins on a Pelham and he realised that the curb was uncomfortable if he tanked. Within a week I could have the curb rein loose.

Mine was just being rude. Retired now but I've still got his super sized bit because if I ever take him out for a potter it's going back on!
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Sounds very familiar! She's also a little arthritic now but just loves to work and thoroughly enjoys bombing off at lightening speed with her friends. Another issue now will be finding a suitable mouth piece in the pelham, why are there so many!!...
 
Rowreach said:
Kimblewick or my favourite, a Cambridge snaffle.

FWIW a properly fitted flash does NOT "hold the mouth shut", it drives me bonkers when I hear this!!! Fitted correctly it allows movement of the jaw but prevents the horse from OPENING the mouth and evading the bit/aids.
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Thank you for the suggestions.

I'm not entirely convinced she does open her mouth actually and perhaps therefore she doesn't need a flash. I'm on a small private yard with friends and they've known my pony longer than me so brilliant for advice however it was all shock horror when I took that bloomin martingale off!
 
Leo Walker said:
I'd try a kimblewick They tend to work well on these sorts of horses. At 25 there really is a limit to how much you can do schooling wise, so you need something that works now so you can get on and enjoy her!
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My sentiments really as I don’t think schooling will make much difference in an excited horse set in its ways, although certainly if you are more secure in your own seat and learn to use your core effectively that will help enormously.

I recently went to a bitting clinic locally which was great, the lady doing it was very knowledgeable, not at all pushing any kind of bit and I learnt a lot. Worth considering if you have someone good local to you.
 
Sussexbythesea said:
My sentiments really as I don’t think schooling will make much difference in an excited horse set in its ways, although certainly if you are more secure in your own seat and learn to use your core effectively that will help enormously.

I recently went to a bitting clinic locally which was great, the lady doing it was very knowledgeable, not at all pushing any kind of bit and I learnt a lot. Worth considering if you have someone good local to you.
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Love stuff like this, how did you find it? Local tack/farm shop has a fabulous three buts to choose from so I doubt they'll ever be host!
 
Lakeside1988 said:
Love stuff like this, how did you find it? Local tack/farm shop has a fabulous three buts to choose from so I doubt they'll ever be host!
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My local riding club organised it. If you join one suggest it or even offer to organise one. She also did individual consultations but not sure what she charges.
 
Rowreach said:
FWIW a properly fitted flash does NOT "hold the mouth shut", it drives me bonkers when I hear this!!! Fitted correctly it allows movement of the jaw but prevents the horse from OPENING the mouth and evading the bit/aids.
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So it holds the mouth shut when a horse tries to open its mouth then? Can't see the difference myself. Do bolts keep doors shut, or stop them from opening?




OP, I'd go straight for a Pelham, with roundings if you can't manage two reins.
 
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IME arthritic horses often get strong and bolsy it stronger and bolsy than they where before .
I spend a lot of time with hunters where this comes up a lot they often get worse as the day goes on
My usual answer is to do less with the horse I think it’s a warning it’s time to not to get them into the situations where it happens so I put them onto half days .
 
She's probably well set in her ways. A kineton noseband may give her pause for thought when she is tanking with you.
 
Goldenstar said:
IME arthritic horses often get strong and bolsy it stronger and bolsy than they where before .
I spend a lot of time with hunters where this comes up a lot they often get worse as the day goes on
My usual answer is to do less with the horse I think it’s a warning it’s time to not to get them into the situations where it happens so I put them onto half days .
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Something to seriously consider thank you, it seems a shame as physio thinks she's fine to continue but I will keep my eye on any other signs that she's ready to call it a day
 
ycbm said:
So it holds the mouth shut when a horse tries to open its mouth then? Can't see the difference myself. Do bolts keep doors shut, or stop them from opening?




OP, I'd go straight for a Pelham, with roundings if you can't manage two reins.
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Been online shopping all morning and had just finally put a cambridge kimblewick in my basket!
I'm now feeling guilty as I realise a jointed bit is probably all wrong for her. They also do a Cambridge Pelham, would I see much difference between the two do you think?
 
I had a cob who was very strong. She wouldn't bog off but she did lean really heavily. I borrowed various bits through the bit bank and ended up with a Swales Pelham which is milder than a standard pelham as it's loose ring. It really helped enormously - she started to carry herself much better and was light in the hand.
 
Lakeside1988 said:
Been online shopping all morning and had just finally put a cambridge kimblewick in my basket!
I'm now feeling guilty as I realise a jointed bit is probably all wrong for her. They also do a Cambridge Pelham, would I see much difference between the two do you think?
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Try the kimblewick to see what she thinks of the mouthpiece. Kimblewicks are very useful and under-rated bits for native ponies. If Dales are like Fells then they will appreciate some tongue room from the cambridge mouth. There are a few snaffles with curved mouthpieces that give tongue room as well that might be worth putting on your 'investigation list' if needed (myler, neue shule and sprenger all have some - look out for second-hand as they are spendy new)

She's an older lady who will have her own ideas of what is best bit-wise, don't be afraid of using a non-snaffle bit - just learn how to use it properly.
 
catkin said:
Try the kimblewick to see what she thinks of the mouthpiece. Kimblewicks are very useful and under-rated bits for native ponies. If Dales are like Fells then they will appreciate some tongue room from the cambridge mouth. There are a few snaffles with curved mouthpieces that give tongue room as well that might be worth putting on your 'investigation list' if needed (myler, neue shule and sprenger all have some - look out for second-hand as they are spendy new)

She's an older lady who will have her own ideas of what is best bit-wise, don't be afraid of using a non-snaffle bit - just learn how to use it properly.
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I've just left the saddlery slightly terrified armed with a second hand Myler combination and Pelham on a weeks trial. I couldn't find a kimblewick in right size so I'll see how these go first. Now to take my bridle apart... oh god!
 
Rowreach said:
Kimblewick or my favourite, a Cambridge snaffle.

FWIW a properly fitted flash does NOT "hold the mouth shut", it drives me bonkers when I hear this!!! Fitted correctly it allows movement of the jaw but prevents the horse from OPENING the mouth and evading the bit/aids.
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Ok, then, it holds the mouth so that the horse cannot open it (not sure how that is different from 'shut', :D). I agree that most horses who open their mouths do it as an evasion. The problem is that most horses who do it as an evasion do it because they are uncomfortable in the mouth with the tack arrangement that they have, that is what they are trying to evade/avoid. The owner/rider needs to check teeth etc and if the cause of the discomfort isn't found, try a different bit. IMO many horses are in bits which are too thick for their comfort.
 
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