Bitting Dilemma - RIs disagreeing!

Ample Prosecco

Ample Prosecco

Still wittering on
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I am a tack dork. I don't know how bits work really apart from the very basic issues like leverage. (This is a genuine issue - I have a part of my brain that does not work relating to spatial awareness. I can't describe my own house layout. I can't put a bridle together and I never will be able to).

So when an RI tells me I need a particular bit I tend to go along with it.

My personal philosophy in all riding is to focus on schooling and communication so my preference has always been a snaffle bit with a plain cavesson - or no cavesson at all. But Amber is a very enthusiastic onward bound horse so my YO who is also my regular RI said I needed better brakes and lent me a happy mouth straight bar gag bit. RI says she went brilliantly in it. And I did certainly have more control. So I bought my own. But over time she has gone less well in it and we are fighting a lot. RI has added in a curb chain and flash. Plus cranked the nose band up tighter - I had it barely done up before and Amber is NOT going that well at the moment in it. She is strong and opinionated. RI thinks this is due to Spring grass/ her being in season. And it's even more important I have control while she is like this.

The crank and flash do not sit well with me. But my RI has decades of experience and it is hard for me to object to a suggestion she is very confident in. She's not saying 'what do you think about' she is saying 'you need'. And she is right - I have more control with the curb etc. But I don't want to achieve control via bitting!

I had an offsite lesson with another RI yesterday. I ditched the curb and flash but was still in the straight bar happy mouth. She got me to ride with much softer hands and by the end Amber was much more relaxed and willing. She said the bit was too severe and that straight bar bits were quite harsh. (Not sure why). She said Amber clearly didn't like it so I should change it for something like a Wilkie. (No idea how that works).

I like the idea of a milder bit and no curb/flash. But how do I raise this with my YO? She will definitely notice so I can't just not tell her! Last time I made a suggestion that came from another RI (the same one as yesterday) which I personally agreed with but which was different to how she teaches I was told that the other RI did not know Amber anywhere near as well as the YO does so I should trust her and stop getting opinions from other people as it will just confuse me! Which may well be true!! In any case it is clear that me going against her advice will genuinely cause offence. Which I don't want at all as I really like her, respect her experience and skill and I know she absolutely has my interests at heart. And I am not even sure I am right anyway so I don't have the courage of my convictions. Maybe I DO need better brakes at least in the short term. Maybe my YO is absolutely right in her assessment of what bit suits Amber best

WWYD??
 
Oooh awkward when your instructor is also your YO!

I must admit it raises my hackles when people tell others not to seek other opinions... there's often not a single right way to do things and how else do we learn to form our own judgements but by listening to different POV and weighing it up :rolleyes:

She probably has your best interests at heart but it does sound a bit misguided, if you had a good lesson with a different approach then it's likely that with a bit more training your mare will be quite responsive without starting a bitting arms race.

I think you either need to try and be more questioning with your YO - explain that you'd like to teach your horse to respond to your aids without upping the bitting and you're happy that might mean you need longer to achieve that. Or seek out someone who suits you and your mare better permanently and who you feel you can ask questions of to improve your own understanding.

FWIW I don't think straight bar bits are harsh, it depends on the bit and the horse's mouth conformation but they are often well accepted (but can be a bit of a blunt instrument). I don't think I'd go for the wilkie as a direct alternative though!
 
milliepops said:
Oooh awkward when your instructor is also your YO!
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Yes exactly!!


milliepops said:
FWIW I don't think straight bar bits are harsh, it depends on the bit and the horse's mouth conformation but they are often well accepted (but can be a bit of a blunt instrument). I don't think I'd go for the wilkie as a direct alternative though!
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From what little I understand- she said some horses like the straight bar and some don't. And she thinks Amber is in the 'don't like it' category. The wilkie was to replace the gag I think. She said it has a small amount of action that works like a gag but not as severe as the one she is in now. But this is the thing - if my YO says 'no you definitely don't want a wilkie' then who am I to argue. I know nothing! All I know is that I want as mild a bit as possible without loss of control. So what might a small step up from a snaffle be?
 
And this is precisely why I would never be based on a yard and use them as my trainers! Awkward.

From what you have said I think the other instructor will work better with you.
I’d be inclined to put your brave pants on and not use YO for lessons anymore.
If you need to say something then I’d tackle it along the lines with your YO of ‘yes you are right, having 2 different opinions is confusing me. I’d like to see how I get on with X for a while’
 
Straight bar bits place a lot of pressure directly across the tongue. Basically they behold the tongue down if they are applying pressure to the bars. In some horses, that either causes pain/irritation, or it actually pinches the sides of the tongue between the bars and the bit.

Some horses love them, and a curved mullen mouth is, imo, a much under used old fashioned bit.
 
Ooh something curved was another suggestion from yesterday. So does that also have better brakes than a snaffle as well as being more comfortable in the mouth?
 
Ambers Echo said:
Ooh something curved was another suggestion from yesterday. So does that also have better brakes than a snaffle as well as being more comfortable in the mouth?
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The thing is, better brakes can be a result of 'more comfortable' so unless you try things you'll never know. If I have a strong horse come to me, the first thing I try is less bit, not more.

Your YO escalating would worry me - where do you stop? Twisted Liverpool driving bit on bottom hole?
 
ihatework said:
If you need to say something then I’d tackle it along the lines with your YO of ‘yes you are right, having 2 different opinions is confusing me. I’d like to see how I get on with X for a while’
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Ouch! Not sure I am brave enough for that. On the other hand my husband says it's my horse do whatever I want! I do like my lessons. She is a good teacher and very patient and encouraging. It's just the bitting that is causing me anxiety/doubt about the direction we are going in. I think I just need to say exactly that. I like the lessons but I am not happy riding her in a gag, curb, flash - especially as until, recently I only ever rode her in a snaffle. So we keep needing to add extra pressure and that feels to me like we are going in the wrong direction. I like the 'bitting arms race' phrase MP used. That is exactly how I feel it is going.
 
Ambers Echo said:
Yes exactly!!




From what little I understand- she said some horses like the straight bar and some don't. And she thinks Amber is in the 'don't like it' category. The wilkie was to replace the gag I think. She said it has a small amount of action that works like a gag but not as severe as the one she is in now. But this is the thing - if my YO says 'no you definitely don't want a wilkie' then who am I to argue. I know nothing! All I know is that I want as mild a bit as possible without loss of control. So what might a small step up from a snaffle be?
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I have know very few that like a straight bar, even less that would go well in a happy mouth, gags are a bit I dislike and would avoid until I had tried others so I am in the ditch that bit camp even without seeing you in action other than the odd video you posted.

We had one experience event horse that went really well in a wilkie for xc and it is a bit I like when used as a step up not as a "snaffle" in the show ring, your mare has the odd stop even though you say she is keen and bold and often overbitting will contribute to them not building up genuine confidence so they end up rushing even more, being able to ride softly will help build the trust and it is not always a case of stronger bit means you do less which is probably what your YO is aiming for and it is not working with this horse or you as a rider.

You need to take a bit more control and trust yourself more, the YO may disagree but it is your horse and you are riding her, an outside point of view may not be welcomed but she should see the results and will have to accept it.
 
Ambers Echo said:
Ooh something curved was another suggestion from yesterday. So does that also have better brakes than a snaffle as well as being more comfortable in the mouth?
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Curved or with a port (Cambridge mouth) can be a lot more comfortable for many horses, and because they accept the bit better it gives the impression that you have more control - without it necessarily being a "stronger" bit, if that makes sense?

Personally I detest anything that is single jointed - they pinch, and given that the two sides of the bit are completely different, there is no logic to them whatsoever to my mind.

This is the problem with bitting OP, you are going to get a LOT of differing opinions, so you may end up even more confused :)
 
Ambers Echo said:
X-posted but yes. This is what is bothering me. Where does going for control-via-bit lead?
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This isn't going to be an answer you like, but from what you've said I think you need to stop lessons with the YO, and unless she is an unusual person, I think that both of you may end up so uncomfortable that you will end up moving yards. Sorry!
 
Ambers Echo said:
Ouch! Not sure I am brave enough for that. On the other hand my husband says it's my horse do whatever I want! I do like my lessons. She is a good teacher and very patient and encouraging. It's just the bitting that is causing me anxiety/doubt about the direction we are going in. I think I just need to say exactly that. I like the lessons but I am not happy riding her in a gag, curb, flash - especially as until, recently I only ever rode her in a snaffle. So we keep needing to add extra pressure and that feels to me like we are going in the wrong direction. I like the 'bitting arms race' phrase MP used. That is exactly how I feel it is going.
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Ok and that’s fine, but if YO reaction is a bit dismissive or they don’t seem to be ‘buying in’ to your request I do think it would be best to back off and move to someone else.

Some people just are of the opinion the horse needs strapping down and they rarely change their mind. I’m not actually against the strategic use of increased bitting or tightening/changing nosebands but it has to be done with careful thought within a longer term training plan
 
'This was suggested to me and I thought I would try it for a while as Amber seemed to respond well initially. If it doesn't work, I can always look at going back to the other bit, but if I don't try, I won't know.' Additionally if you would like 'Would you support/help me through trying this out, I'd really like to give it a good go for x amount of time but some guidance from the ground would really help too.'
 
ycbm said:
This isn't going to be an answer you like, but from what you've said I think you need to stop lessons with the YO, and unless she is an unusual person, I think that both of you may end up so uncomfortable that you will end up moving yards. Sorry!
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As a YO who trains their liveries, although not in many gadgets, I agree and having read most of your threads recently have been thinking this for some time, she sounds very controlling and not always in a good way.
 
Personally I detest anything that is single jointed - given that the two sides of the bit are completely different, there is no logic to them whatsoever to my mind.
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This is a blindingly good point, that has never occurred to me before, !!

They are asymmetric. They can't be made symmetric, it's not possible. So the most sensitive part of the horse is the only one where we would ever put something asymmetric???

I'm about to go and throw out all my single jointed bits.
 
I wouldn't be happy going with your YO's recommendations. In my horse owning days I didn't school in an ever stronger bit. I have bitted up to go hunting to give me control! But in everyday riding I would be working on getting the horse light in the hand but working into a contact.
 
haven't read all the replies but agree with the fact that if the YO has taken you out of a snaffle and cavesson into a crank with flash and gag for more control and that the control is now getting worse so needs upped further then the training system is at fault not the bit and it's worrying your YO wants to up the bitting further. Sounds like you had a positive experience with the other instructor and like others i'd probably not go to a wilkie either. What type of snaffle did you have before? It could be you need a different type of joint (from single to double, from french link to lozenge or vice versa) so that your horse is more comfortable and therefore more accepting of the bit and therefore more rideable.
 
Why don't you phone The Bit Bank and explain your horse to them and see what they advise? They will hire bits out for you to trial, which might be a less contentious discussion with your YO.
 
I do also think that the YO leant you the bit but that means that it had to be one she had, and there are probably hundreds of bits out there that she doesn't have that might work better for your horse.

I do also think happy mouths should be considered differently to a standard straight mullen mouth as their tongue pressure situation is quite different.

I think you have good logic to show (to yourself and YO if you wish) that the current set up has not long term resolved the problems and you need to look at it again. Unfortunately they don't often read the book, F loves his single jointed loose ring snaffle and hates a lozenge :p.
 
These are the two key points i get from your post.
But I don't want to achieve control via bitting!
You are 100% along the right lines - training means achieving control via signals, not increased bitting. There are times when you might need something else, but daily schooling should be in something very mild that your horse is happy in.
She got me to ride with much softer hands and by the end Amber was much more relaxed and willing.
Regardless of how many other instructors you have and what they say, your horse says she likes a milder bit and soft hands.
So, you and your horse are in full agreement about the direction to take.
Have no idea how you convince other people of this though - good luck with that!
 
ester said:
I do also think that the YO leant you the bit but that means that it had to be one she had, and there are probably hundreds of bits out there that she doesn't have that might work better for your horse.

I do also think happy mouths should be considered differently to a standard straight mullen mouth as their tongue pressure situation is quite different.

I think you have good logic to show (to yourself and YO if you wish) that the current set up has not long term resolved the problems and you need to look at it again. Unfortunately they don't often read the book, F loves his single jointed loose ring snaffle and hates a lozenge :p.
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Yes absolutely - happy mouths really are a weird tool.

OP, I agree with others, I'm not sure your RI has got you going down the right path and she sounds pretty single minded about her approach. Up biting has already caused Amber to up the ante - if you keep doing the same, so will she.
 
You could always buy or borrow a bit, ride your horse in it without the instructor being around to see, and if Amber goes well put her in it for the next lesson. As you get on, say to your instructor "Oh, I've borrowed/bought this bit to try, I rode in it yesterday and Amber really seems to like it. Could you have a look while we are riding and let me know what you think? I'd value your opinion." That way you aren't actually rejecting her suggestion and you are bringing her in on the decision. So if your horse goes well she won't really be able to argue with you continuing with that bit.

Then find a new instructor! I'm not very experienced with bitting, but I've read enough to be pretty clear that if you have to strap a horse's mouth shut there is something wrong with the bit/bridle set-up.
 
Honestly I don't understand why people feel the need to pussy foot around the original RI. Why cant she just be told the truth - 'I don't like how the lessons are progressing and the increasing use of force via bitting and nosebands etc and I want to try something else'. Simple.

Are we all so afraid of offending? If someone is doing a bad job they need to know! Maybe that's all she has been told?

At the end of the day the horses welfare and comfort should come before her pride.
 
I think it is because she is the YO, I suspect too many people have seen the consequences of upsetting your YO.
 
She's your horse- use whichever you like riding with best. Other people can only 'suggest' and offer opinions. The choice of bit is up to you.
 
Ambers Echo said:
From what little I understand- she said some horses like the straight bar and some don't. And she thinks Amber is in the 'don't like it' category. The wilkie was to replace the gag I think. She said it has a small amount of action that works like a gag but not as severe as the one she is in now. But this is the thing - if my YO says 'no you definitely don't want a wilkie' then who am I to argue. I know nothing! All I know is that I want as mild a bit as possible without loss of control. So what might a small step up from a snaffle be?
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I know you are saying you know nothing but I just wanted to say - dont sell yourself short! So you had a lesson with another instructor and you were able to tell the difference in your horse from riding softer & more connected... so that tells me you know alot! You know the difference in your horse being relaxed softening & not responding well to the bit. I think the best approach you can go with to your YO is that you have to go with how your horse feels. And a good instructor wont dispute that - my YO is my instructor aswell & she didnt like the bit was riding my horse in but she agreed that if he felt better to me in it then she obviously has to go with that, but we always have an open discussion about it & always make suggestions to each other - she lends me bits, I get her to ride him & see what she thinks & we have worked through a few options until we are both happy now that my horse is happy - which is the most important think.

So just because you feel you dont know much about bits - dont let that put you off being confident with how you know your horse feels, not all of us know all the bits or all the right things to try so you can only go on what your horse is telling you, not anyone else :)
 
Ambers Echo said:
But this is the thing - if my YO says 'no you definitely don't want a wilkie' then who am I to argue.
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You're the owner of the horse... And that really is the end of the story - your horse, your decision.

Loads of good advice here on bitting, but fwiw, I agree with the general consensus that your YO's approach isn't what I would do. How is your area off for yards?
 
Gosh thanks for all the replies. Lots and lots of very helpful advice. I will read through it all again and try and decide where next. I have already decided that I am not sticking with the current gag/curb/flash so at least that is one thing you have all helped me be clear about. It is awkward because I don't want to cause any offence but at the end of the day I would rather annoy my YO than ride my horse in way that does not feel right to me! I am not saying she is wrong but everyone has personal preferences and mine happens to be minimalism when it comes to tack/gadgets etc. So there is no need for her to take offence. I am just trying something else. So I just need to be upfront and non defensive and take it from there.

I love my yard and do like my YO. She probably wouldn't have an issue anyway with me playing around with other options. Hopefully I am just overthinking it all and it will all be fine.

A call to the bit bank sounds like a good idea. Thanks again.
 
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