bitting dilemma..

I think that those vids are pretty good proof that it can be done.

I think so many people are just convinced that to ride your horse to top level you have to put a metal device in their very sensitive mouth.

I wish i could (legally) make riders wear a bit, then i think they may be more open to bitless options. But until then, most people are perfectly happy to let an animal that they 'love' wear something that can and is so painful.

Sorry if my post offends any one, its just my opinion.
 
I may be about to ask a very stupid question here so please humour me... I've just looked at the Dr Cook website and read the article on how it works. It appears to me that, just like a bit, the Dr Cook could be just as cruel in the wrong hands as a bit can be. If I've understood how it works correctly, there is a crossover underneath the jaw which acts as a pulley to tighten the noseband, which sits on a sensitive part of the face. In fact the noseband seems to be positioned in the same place as the rope on a Dually headcollar, which when it is tightened, is designed to be harsh and give you control.

So I can't see that the Dr Cook is actually as "kind" as people are saying. There also seems to be the potential to really crank the jaw tightly shut, as if you pull on the rein, you tighten the noseband. I also don't understand the statement regarding putting pressure on "areas of special sensitivity behind the ears". Isn't this where the Parelli headcollars have knots, designed to hurt when the horse pulls?

I don't mean to provoke an argument here but I'm genuinely confused as to how people can lecture those of us who use bits when it appears that the Dr Cook bridle could be just as cruel if used inappropriately?

And for the record, my horse goes in a loose ring sweet iron french link...without a noseband.
 
chestnut cob said:
I may be about to ask a very stupid question here so please humour me... I've just looked at the Dr Cook website and read the article on how it works. It appears to me that, just like a bit, the Dr Cook could be just as cruel in the wrong hands as a bit can be. If I've understood how it works correctly, there is a crossover underneath the jaw which acts as a pulley to tighten the noseband, which sits on a sensitive part of the face. In fact the noseband seems to be positioned in the same place as the rope on a Dually headcollar, which when it is tightened, is designed to be harsh and give you control.

So I can't see that the Dr Cook is actually as "kind" as people are saying. There also seems to be the potential to really crank the jaw tightly shut, as if you pull on the rein, you tighten the noseband. I also don't understand the statement regarding putting pressure on "areas of special sensitivity behind the ears". Isn't this where the Parelli headcollars have knots, designed to hurt when the horse pulls?

I don't mean to provoke an argument here but I'm genuinely confused as to how people can lecture those of us who use bits when it appears that the Dr Cook bridle could be just as cruel if used inappropriately?

And for the record, my horse goes in a loose ring sweet iron french link...without a noseband.
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I actually agree with you regarding Dr Cooks bridle. I dont think its the best example of a bitless.
One of my horses goes really nice in it, but when i put it on another pony, she really hated it.

I think its ok for certain horses and riders. I know a lot of people who love them.
I actually just ride in a rope halter. Its what i train my horses in, and i put a fleece covering on the nosepiece. I do this so the knots on it dont push into the horses nostrils. It doesnt have any knots on the head piece tho, so there is not pressure excerted to the poll.

There are a lot of good bridles out there that do not tighten when the reins are used, like a sidepull. These are just like headcollars with reins. Mild unless used roughly, as with anything.

We can abuse the horse with any piece of tack, either a bit or a halter/bitless. Its up to each individual how we use our equipment.

A lot of people dont like the rope halter because its finner than a standard halter. But it shouldnt be used to create pain for the horse.
Is basically so you can refine ur aids by using them as light as possible.

If its causes the horse pain, its not being used correctly.

I would rather see someone riding light in a bit than heavy in a bitless. And i would rather see someone ride light in a bitless than light in a bit.
 
Back to the original post iv borrowed a waterford bit and a cherry roller both different bits and have different uses so shall give them a try and see which one suits her best and which one she is comfotrable with..
 
Jennyharvey said:
This is the bridle i would love to have. I think its ideal, doesnt tighten around the head, only acts wen the reins are pulled, then releases when the rein is released.

Abit expensive tho.

http://www.naturalhorseplanet.com/shop/bitless-bridles/nhp-bitless-bridle.html
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It looks great - is there anywhere with better pictures though? I'd like to understand more about how it works, presumably there is more to it than what could be made with reins coming off the rings on a drop noseband?
Are any of the governing bodies looking at allowing bitless dressage? I think that's the huge stumbling block, and can't understand it - I think it's more difficult to ride a test bitless so why would they disallow it?
 
chestnut cob - the dr cook does not tighten the nose band, the nose band is similar to a cavesson, except that is has a ring either side, these are where the reins go through that work on a figure 8 that hugs the whole head (they are not tightening the nose band).

Dr W R Cook, a UK-trained equine vet, first marketed The Bitless Bridle™ in the USA in 1999. It is the only bitless design that has been developed and physiologically validated by a respected veterinary surgeon, one who has focussed 50 years of his research on the mouth, ear, nose and throat of the horse, particularly unsoundness of wind, the cause of bleeding in racehorses and the harmful effects of the bit method of communication.

I bought my daughter a pony that competed successfully on a regular basis, but was very stressy (box walked almost continually, would not stand when tied up and barged through people) and although he had been successful in competition, he would not hack. Experienced people had tried to get him to hack, they even sent him to a horse whisperer, hoping that he could help with this and with handling (apparently for 6 weeks). Eventually they sold him on, which is when he came to me. This pony had a gag, a flash and a martingale, would box walk so badly he would drip sweat and if tied would constantly move from side to side, he would tongue loll really badly. I removed the gag, flash and martingale and tried a double jointed loose ring snaffle with a roller centre/lozenge, once he got used to me, if i was riding him, the tongue lolling was almost non existent, so i began to try to hack him out, it took a few weeks but we got there, happily, but if someone else rode he would begin again (i think through anticipation of pain), so i thought that maybe i could go one step further and get him a bit more comfortable. I eventually tried the dr cook bitless and never looked back.
Not only was he happy to go on a long hack, but he was so chilled to handle, i could tie him up and he would stand perfectly, the box walking improved more and more over the weeks, to where he would only walk at feed times, or anticipation of turn out and he was the only pony that the YO's 3 year old grandson (had been raised with horses), would groom or handle. I eventually had a situation where he could be brought in on his own and be happy to stand in the stable with a haynet, you could open the stable door in the morings during turnout and he would wait until asked to come out.
The YO could not believe the difference in this pony, the tongue lolling, refusing to hack, stress and bargyness had gone and i believe it was all down to not having the pain from a bit. The physical and mental torture of having a bit put in his mouth, his mouth strapped shut, so he was now in pain and also could not swallow, on a regular basis was causing all of his problems. He was eight/nine when he came to us and it makes me want to cry at the thought of how long he suffered.
Im not saying that every horse suffers this, but his one did, the bit just did not suit him and bitless has improved his life.
 
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crazycoloured said:
Back to the original post iv borrowed a waterford bit and a cherry roller both different bits and have different uses so shall give them a try and see which one suits her best and which one she is comfotrable with..
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from what you say, your mare isnt strong and has good brakes, so it just sounds like she is uncomfortable in her mouth because of the pressure from the bit.
cherry rollers and waterfords are used because the bit has movement and therefore the horse can not lean and from what you say, your mare doesnt do this.
Also, a cherry roller is single jointed, therefore, like the first bit that you used, it will be uncomfortable on the roof of the mouth and i cannot see this making your mare any happier.
The waterford has a lot of movement, so maybe in THEORY more comfortable for your mare, but not when the reins come into play, it is then very harsh on the mouth, particularly if someone rides her that moves the bit side to side.
The Shires catalogue used to have a tel number in their bit section, for advice on bitting, tell them that your mare is neither strong nor leans and just seems uncomfortable with a bit (but you choose not to go bitless) and get something that has movement, is double jointed and loose ring.
Be careful if a french link is advised, because although it has all these qualities, it can be harsh on the tongue if the centre link is the wrong shape (they vary enormously and can be too long, too flat and also too lumpy on the connections of the joint).
 
If she isn't strong then I would try a loose ring snaffle with a thin mouth piece, or a myler snaffle with a small port (04 mouth i think) to give her room for her tongue.

there are a couple of bit banks that you can hire from so you can try before you buy!
 
crazycoloured said:
Back to the original post iv borrowed a waterford bit and a cherry roller both different bits and have different uses so shall give them a try and see which one suits her best and which one she is comfotrable with..
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Sorry we have hijacked your thread. Hope you find a suitable bit for your horse.

If i were you, i would stick to a mild a bit as possible. Both bits you have borrowed i think are for the stronger horse, or one that grabs the bit.

But saying that, if your horse goes well and stops well, these shouldnt be to strong for her.
 
soloequestrian said:
It looks great - is there anywhere with better pictures though? I'd like to understand more about how it works, presumably there is more to it than what could be made with reins coming off the rings on a drop noseband?
Are any of the governing bodies looking at allowing bitless dressage? I think that's the huge stumbling block, and can't understand it - I think it's more difficult to ride a test bitless so why would they disallow it?
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If you can imagine riding in a standard head collar, its pretty similar.
Just that its got a brow band.

The positioning if the noseband is important. If its to high, you wont have enough control because the higher up the nose you g, the less responsive the horse is.

If its too low, you can effect the breathing. The noseband should be in a good place so as not to effect breathing, but still have enough control with a light contact.

You can ride in a bitless the same as with a bit. When you start a horse, you long rein them to get use to steering and stopping with the bit. Same here for a bitless. Its just taking the point of control from the mouth to the nose, its not that hard.

Im not sure what you mean about the drop noseband? You wouldnt want it so low. And you dont need it very low.

I dont tend to long rein my horses tho. I prefer to do ground work so that they know how to bend. So when i get on them, they already steer. I generally do a one rein stop on my youngsters because is much easier than pulling two reins. Once i can move them around the arena, steer, backup then the horse should be fine to halt of two reins.

The bridle in the picture is probably one of the simplest bits, and most effective. You dont need anything to tighten on a bridle. If the horse is taught right, all you need to do is lift the reins for the horse to halt, or do a one rein stop. the horses nose isnt as sensitive as the mouth, but it can be just as responsive to the cues.

I rode in this bridle in NZ where the kids used them on their ponies, and really its just like riding in a bitted bridle, its pretty simple.

http://www.bitlessbridle.eu/artikelen/On The Bit_A Misleading and Mischevious Phrase.pdf

This article explains a bit of the the reasons why the FEI dont allow bitless bridles.
This i beleive is a big problem and a good reason why many dont think you can do dressage bitless. I think that if the FEI were to recognise and allow it in competitions, maybe we could move on with the evolution of horsemanship. It would open many doors for bitless riding, for all levels.
 
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I tried her in the waterford tonight with a plain noseband and she was much better.I took her for a hack and had a loose rein and she didnt grind her teeth on the bit she was playing with it a bit and mouthed up really well.She isnt a strong horse and has exellent brakes. and the mouthpiece isnt jointed which the previous bits were and she didnt like them.i had her in a jointed snaffle and also a jointed happy mouth and she disliked them both.
 
Having just looked at the websites posted by Jennyharvey I am quite intrigued about these bridles. I don't want to sound facetious but when your horses are working on the bit do you call it on the nose?!! It's very interesting to hear that you can work them in an outline and perform lateral moves and school your horses as well as you can a horse that has a bit in it's mouth. I will continue to read some more
 
Aces_High said:
Having just looked at the websites posted by Jennyharvey I am quite intrigued about these bridles. I don't want to sound facetious but when your horses are working on the bit do you call it on the nose?!! It's very interesting to hear that you can work them in an outline and perform lateral moves and school your horses as well as you can a horse that has a bit in it's mouth. I will continue to read some more
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Glad to hear you are interested in thse bridles.
We just call it, 'in an outline' i guess, but i still sometimes say 'on the bit' because im so use to it.

I dont really like the phrase 'on the bit' anyway. It gives a false representation of what is actually achieved. Riding a horse in an outline correctly has nothing to do with the horses mouth.

Its about getting the horse to carry himself in a outline, using your body and seat aids, more so than your hands. Its not about asking the horse with your hands to come onto an outline, its about allowing the horse to find the outline with good prep and training.

If you want to know more, feel free to pm me.
 
Neue Schule Loose Ring Demi-Anky

Price: £39.95
Although single jointed, the demi anky is ergonomically designed to eradicate the nutcracker action and subsequent problems that the traditional straight armed single jointed snaffle can cause. The cleverly curved mouthpiece eliminates upper palate interference and it also prevents it from lying too far forwards in the mouth causing pressure on the thinner more sensitive part of the tongue. It sweeps slightly away from the corner of the lip to lessen any chance of rubbing and the curvature down towards the bars achieves a gentle even weight bearing surface across the bars. When a contact is taken the mouthpiece forms a channel for the tongue giving relief over the thinner more sensitive outer edges.
We find this design is very beneficial for horses that back off or only offer an intermittent contact or for the very rare occasion when a horse does not find a lozenge comfortable.

I found this on a web-page and sounds like it could be worth a go..
 
But it is still a single jointed bit, even if it is kinder than some others, and you've worked out your horse doesn't like single jointed bits.

I'd stick with a french link, or a low port or the waterford you've borrowed if all is going well with it.
 
crazycoloured said:
Neue Schule Loose Ring Demi-Anky

Price: £39.95
Although single jointed, the demi anky is ergonomically designed to eradicate the nutcracker action and subsequent problems that the traditional straight armed single jointed snaffle can cause. The cleverly curved mouthpiece eliminates upper palate interference and it also prevents it from lying too far forwards in the mouth causing pressure on the thinner more sensitive part of the tongue. It sweeps slightly away from the corner of the lip to lessen any chance of rubbing and the curvature down towards the bars achieves a gentle even weight bearing surface across the bars. When a contact is taken the mouthpiece forms a channel for the tongue giving relief over the thinner more sensitive outer edges.
We find this design is very beneficial for horses that back off or only offer an intermittent contact or for the very rare occasion when a horse does not find a lozenge comfortable.

I found this on a web-page and sounds like it could be worth a go..
Click to expand...

Why don't you try her in their french link, the one with the lozenge? Or a copper french link with loose ring? I'd also try her in a drop noseband, just done up fairly loosely so that it encourages her not to open her mouth (so she can't get tongue over the bit) but doesn't stop her from mouthing and relaxing her jaw.
 
i shall give the bit a go chesnut cob its worth a try,im not keen on drop nosemands due to there location on the horses nose as they sit quite low down..
 
crazycoloured said:
I tried her in the waterford tonight with a plain noseband and she was much better.I took her for a hack and had a loose rein and she didnt grind her teeth on the bit she was playing with it a bit and mouthed up really well.She isnt a strong horse and has exellent brakes. and the mouthpiece isnt jointed which the previous bits were and she didnt like them.i had her in a jointed snaffle and also a jointed happy mouth and she disliked them both.
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im really pleased to hear that you have done away with the grackle and are now using a plain noseband (take it you mean cavesson) and that you have decided not to use a single jointed bit, just doing this will have given her a lot of relief.
I bet she enjoyed her hack.
She is one of the lucky horses that has found someone that listens to her.
 
the phrase "on the bit" came about from a bad translation, it should have translated into something more with the meaning of the head being carried in a particular position, it has now been used for so long that it is thought that it literally means, ON THE BIT and therefore cannot be used for a horse being ridden bitless, or that a horse being ridden bitless cannot be on the bit.
I think that this is one of the arguments for allowing bitless bridles in dressage.
 
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beautruman said:
the phrase "on the bit" came about from a bad translation, it should have translated into something more with the meaning of the head being carried in a particular position, it has now been used for so long that it is thought that it literally means, ON THE BIT and therefore cannot be used for a horse being ridden bitless, or that a horse being ridden bitless cannot be on the bit.
I think that this is one of the arguments for allowing bitless bridles in dressage.
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In racing we say on the bridle when the horse is on the bit. That's when it's fully on the steel and towing you along. I only mentioned it out of interest as now a days, a horse which is unshod is barefoot I wondered if the bitless followers had a term for their horses!
 
Aces_High said:
In racing we say on the bridle when the horse is on the bit. That's when it's fully on the steel and towing you along. I only mentioned it out of interest as now a days, a horse which is unshod is barefoot I wondered if the bitless followers had a term for their horses!
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I would just say that my horse is barefoot and bitless. Or a metal free horse. Both the same really.
 
Jennyharvey said:
What is it that you dont like about bitless? Surely something that will make a horse more comfortable is a good thing?

I suppose its such an alien thing for most people to take the point of control from the sensitive mouth to the nose. I just wish it was more widely accepted. At least we wouldnt have these questions about finding the right bit for a certain horse, because the answer would be quite obvious.

Maybe instead of trying to find a KIND bit, maybe more people should understand that the bit is the problem.

If your horse has a small mouth and big tounge, then a thinner mouth piece may be more suitable. But a thinner mouth piece will also be more severe because of less surface area.

If i were has to train a horse in a bit, i would use the micklem multi bridle so i could attach the bar guards and tranfer the rein fressure from the mouth to the nose. I would also use a french link snaffle, because there is much less nutcracker action.

But my horses all go very good without the bit, so i dont have much need for a bit. Its kinda weird when i go to shows and all horses wearing bits.
Its just not neccesary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0a-aV0Rsxmg

This in an interesting video.
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Im just adding my 2 cents here :P

Not ALL horses accept bits and yes it is kinder to use bitless however you keep referring to the bit as the problem, (as in all bits) however can you imagine showing in a bitless bridle?? im sure its been done but i certainly wouldn't. If you can find a bit that your horse is happy with it, why not ride in it? it can be something as simple as thickness of mouthpiece or 2 joints rather than one.

I fully understand that for some horses it is the only answer but i think with quite a few people (not saying you at all here btw as i dont know you :).) it is more of a fashion, or trend. There horse may have been fine before but they went bitless anyway. If i ever needed to i would, but i wouldnt unless i needed to.
 
ilovecobs said:
Im just adding my 2 cents here :P

Not ALL horses accept bits and yes it is kinder to use bitless however you keep referring to the bit as the problem, (as in all bits) however can you imagine showing in a bitless bridle?? im sure its been done but i certainly wouldn't. If you can find a bit that your horse is happy with it, why not ride in it? it can be something as simple as thickness of mouthpiece or 2 joints rather than one.

I fully understand that for some horses it is the only answer but i think with quite a few people (not saying you at all here btw as i dont know you :).) it is more of a fashion, or trend. There horse may have been fine before but they went bitless anyway. If i ever needed to i would, but i wouldnt unless i needed to.
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Why not show in a bitless? Whats wrong with it?

So you dont think bits are used for fashion, or tradition. This is mostly the reason people use bits in the first place.

I do beleive the bit is the problem. Its a medieval device created in the days when no regard was given to the horses welbeing.
If you look a egyptian pictures and carvings of horses, they have a bit in them with their mouth open.
Im not against any one who uses bits at all, i just dont see the point in them. Like i said, their use is based on tradition, (on causing pain, as was there original purpose), and i am all for changing traditions.
 
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