Bitting for more collection?

J

Jingleballs

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Just a pondering.

My HW cob really struggles to come back onto his hocks in esp in canter – he prefers to get fast and long and flat as it’s easier for him to be on the forehand.

I really want to improve this and am working on lots of transitions, trying to hold him a bit more in my hand to get him to make the canter more collected.

I’ve got a new trainer who is helping with this and we had a fab lesson last night using transitions, canter poles and also some jumps and really focusing on not firing him at the jumps but making him wait and get back onto his hocks.

We had mixed success! The biggest issues for me is how strong I need to be in my rein to contain him. He likes to try to run through your hand/lean if you try and collect him and it felt like my arms were getting ripped out of their sockets.

He currently goes in a loose ring revolver and is fine in this - except when you try and work on collection and balance. Last night I popped his flash on which did help a bit but I’d really like to not feel as though I’m hanging on his mouth to get him off the forehand. – incidently, we did focus on flexing him/getting him rounder which had some affect but he generally did just want to charge at the jumps!

Would a different bit make a difference? It has been mentioned that a dutch gag might allow me to ask for collection without having to use so much hand? I would always prefer to use schooling rather than immediately use a stronger bit but could a straight bar dutch gag help me improve this issue in addition to the schooling or by occasionally schooling in the stronger bit (which is what I’d do rather than use it constantly), would that make the issue harder to deal with in a snaffle?
 
Sometimes cobs or cob x's can have fairly large tongues, so you may find that there is too much bit in his/her mouth.

I had this problem with a 3/4tb x WB, she had the fine tb head, but had a large WB tongue! My trainer suggested a Myler comfort snaffle, it has a slightly raised port so allows room for the fleshy tongue, and can be used as a regular snaffle, or it has holes for the bridle and reins, than can be used as & when needed for slight poll pressure, and as with most myler s it has lots of moving/revolving parts - mine goes really sweetly in it - I was dubious at first but it made her much stiller in the contact, and you can have more communication with a more subtle rein aid. I paid £90 for it a few years ago which is a lot, but has been worth its weight in gold for this mare - if you look on ebay there will probably be one for half that.
 
Hmmmm are you sure you didn't ride my horse ;)

I have been working on the same issues, to be honest with my big lad I don't think they affect the collection massively, unless your talking going from the snaffle to the double for showing?

I have used lots of transitions, shoulder in, shoulder fore and leg yelding. I've swapped to the NS Verbinden and though I'd say his acceptance is better, I wouldn't say it has helped collection. I find as he's also a HW, when my trainer get on, it makes me realise how good he looks with a fella up there-mind you, as it stands he'll just have to cope with me most of the time :D
 
Might be worth fiddling around with snaffle type bits, but not dutch gags/pelhams etc
 
wench said:
Might be worth fiddling around with snaffle type bits, but not dutch gags/pelhams etc
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Interesting - can I ask why non a gag out of interest? I've heard examples of horses who like to run through the bridle going well in a gag for jumping.

What other snaffles would offer a better solution and allow me to be lighter in to contact when asking for collection?

Oscar - that's interesting and something I'll have a look into.

I've never really noticed if he has a huge fleshy tongue - he's not a fan of having his mouth touched and the dentist has never flagged an issue but I'll have a look for some finer month pieces!

Sportshorseindisguis - no wouldn't be looking to switch to a double for showing, just looking for something to play with to see if I can get better control of canter without having to hold quite so strongly!
 
Sorry perhaps I was rambling :rolleyes: what I mean is, the collection I've achieved has only come through schooling, not noticably from a change in bits. With the only acception being when the double is in for showing, however this is only as this must be the tack used for this sport, not as a quick fix to the collection.

Certainly, the type of horse you/ I have are not traditional dressage/ flatwork types so it may be harder for them to maintain collection work as easily as other breeds. That is not to say they aren't capable of it, just that it may need more time to establish. I think the only way to true collection can be through schooling, have you considered acute transitions to assist you? These also help my boy- wow! sorry for the essay :D xx
 
I have more bits than Derby house!! If you want to raid my collection your more than welcome, I have a full cheek snaffle with a cooper roller which might help a bit?
Q
 
Collection doesnt come from the hand.
Remember it is the final scale of training so everything else must be in place first, and it sounds like it isnt! First you need to school him to carry himself in balance, ryhthm and with straightness. There is no quick fix through bitting as you will just be creating an artificial way of going.
If the question you're asking is how to get his to lighten in front, then transitions, little bits of on then back and shoulder fore will all help.
 
I appreciate schooling is the only real proper fix but I had this same issue. I use a ported Pelham but check the roof of your horses mouth that it can accommodate the port. I then alternate between this and a loose ring snaffle and it has made a big difference. I'm only 5ft 2 and my lad is 16.2 sports horse so can sympathise with your issue I have tried lots of bits and that's the only way you really know a Wilkie snaffle is also a useful bit. A flash made my horse worse as he hated his mouth shut. Hope this helps a little.
 
Thanks for the responses.

Just to clarify, I'm not looking to put a stronger bit in his mouth as a quick fix. We are working on all the exercises you have mentioned but I do fiind I need to be very strong in my hand to collect him.

Upwards transitions are ok - sometimes he can be a bit head tossy because he wants to run onto the forehand and I won't let him but is generally ok.

Downward transitions are much harder - you need to back up any hand aid with a lot of leg to ensure he doesn't just drop off at the back end but you then have the issue of trying to contain the hind propulsion in your hand without just letting him run through the rein.

This is why I was looking to try another bit - to see if it can improve the quality of the transition work while ensuring that I'm not needing such a strong hand aid to contain him.

If that makes sense?

Horse*21 - thanks for that - I don't have quite an issue with height - I,m 5'7 ish and pony is 14.3 but he is a heavy cob with a big thick neck and he loves nothing more than to set his neck and jaw against you - he also dislikes the flash!
 
Putting a stronger bit in is simply going to make him back off the bit, not collect - shorter steps from a stronger bit does not equal collection. Collection comes from the seat and the weight, not the hand.

Nothing to do with the type of horse either - my trainer has been working on collection with me and my hefty ID to help shift the weight back. It's easier for most horses to be on the forehand and it takes a lot of training to keep constantly moving the balance back. We can now collect, albeit not sufficiently yet to score highly in a dressage test, with loops in the reins.

There is no quick fix I'm afraid if you want actual collection, rather than something that will appear to be collection to the untrained eye.
 
paddy said:
Putting a stronger bit in is simply going to make him back off the bit, not collect - shorter steps from a stronger bit does not equal collection. Collection comes from the seat and the weight, not the hand.

Nothing to do with the type of horse either - my trainer has been working on collection with me and my hefty ID to help shift the weight back. It's easier for most horses to be on the forehand and it takes a lot of training to keep constantly moving the balance back. We can now collect, albeit not sufficiently yet to score highly in a dressage test, with loops in the reins.

There is no quick fix I'm afraid if you want actual collection, rather than something that will appear to be collection to the untrained eye.
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So Paddy, did you just persist with the stronger hand aids to encourage this collection and through time the horse learned to work off the lighter aid?
 
BeauBear said:
So Paddy, did you just persist with the stronger hand aids to encourage this collection and through time the horse learned to work off the lighter aid?
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I suppose if you ignore the rest of my post, at a push you could interpret the sentence I posted regarding collection and loops that way, but in the context of the rest of the post, why would you?

I've spent about a year and a half working with my trainer on shifting the balance through weight aids, seat and patterns, until my horse is sufficiently balanced and strengthened to collect when I ask him through my seat, leg and weight aid. Strong hands haven't featured.
 
paddy said:
I suppose if you ignore the rest of my post, at a push you could interpret the sentence I posted regarding collection and loops that way, but in the context of the rest of the post, why would you?

I've spent about a year and a half working with my trainer on shifting the balance through weight aids, seat and patterns, until my horse is sufficiently balanced and strengthened to collect when I ask him through my seat, leg and weight aid. Strong hands haven't featured.
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I wasn't ignoring the rest of your post so no need to get snarky!

I know how to use weight aids but when you have a horse who likes to ignore all of these things, your hand does have to come into it at some point - or would you prefer I just let him run into a fence?

Thanks for your "help".
 
No snarkiness - although I don't know what it is I'm afraid. I'm just confused as to what you were getting at with your response to my post, which seemed rather odd. The 'help' is there - patience, weight, seat, leg and patterns. Small circles, transitions, direct and indirect. With a horse who ignores all of those things, I'd continue working on them on the flat until he didn't ignore them, and then ride him to a fence when he was listening to me and balanced.
 
Firstly, dont jump a strong horse who is running at the fences until you can use a more subtle aid to control him.
Next, you need to school using lighter aids. Pulling hard will only school him to make you have to pull harder. Horses are very good with repetitive exercises- make trot-walk-trot transitions on a circle every 4 seconds. Count them to yourself and ask for the transitions from the seat. They always get this pretty quickly and it starts to re-build that foundation of seat aids acting first.
 
That's part of the problem though - on the flat I can use a light aid. He's always been ridden in a snaffle. He knows what a weight aid is and will generally respond to a weight aid when I ask for a downwards transition ( upwards transitions can still be a bit sticky but after a few repetitions he gets it but is sometimes too keen to please and you end up doing lots of walk/halt to canters).

If you put a pole on the ground or a fence up he just wants to jump it - he's so keen and not at all nasty with it but when I'm trying to sit and steady with weight aids it's difficult as I end up bouncing like a sack of potatoes as his trot/canter gets too fast and unbalanced and hence I have to resort to flexing him or "sliding half halt" as my instructor calls it but you do have to take quite a strong check to get him to listen which is why I was wondering if a different bit might work well for pole work/fences to allow me to ask him to steady and balance with a lighter aid!
 
Going to see if I can remember this exercise correctly as worked great with my big lad (17.1 ID) for improving the canter.

In walk down long side towards the corner marker, do turn on the haunches (180 degrees) then immediate walk to canter and feel them sit for few strides before they lose it circle and/or downwards transition then go again....
 
Jnhuk said:
Going to see if I can remember this exercise correctly as worked great with my big lad (17.1 ID) for improving the canter.

In walk down long side towards the corner marker, do turn on the haunches (180 degrees) then immediate walk to canter and feel them sit for few strides before they lose it circle and/or downwards transition then go again....
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Thanks for this! I imagine we'll ace the upwards transition but the downwards one will cause some problems!

Will add it to my schooling routine - we spend most of our time doing transitions these days!
 
Echo all of the above; circles, circles, circles, changes of direction, loops and serpentines, more circles, leg yielding, repetitive transitions both direct and indirect will encourage your horse to "sit back" on his hocks and take more weight behind.

You say he sets his neck, so work on loosening his neck with bending and stretching during the warm-up so he is not fixing against your hand and is not holding his neck up (cobs tend to use the muscle on the bottom of the neck to 'prop' themselves against the hand and then consequently tip onto the forehand).

Putting a stronger bit in will make your horse curl up behind the bit or worse cause him to pull harder, so you enter a spiraling circle of stronger bits.

For what it is worth, after a serious shoulder injury I now school all mine to be very light in the hand as I cannot take much stress in the upper body for prolonged periods. I can do this after schooling in just plastic snaffles; I may need more finesse at events or out hunting but the basic principle of not yanking my arms out is the same!

Good luck :)
 
Thanks Vermillion - that's exactly what I'm aiming for - a light contact!

I think part of the issue has been caused by my general lack of contact - I've always been prone to letting the rein slip through my fingers (or most linkely, pony pulling the reins out of my hands).

I've only recently started focusing on improving this after one instructor really called it out. As expected, pony does resent this as for the first time he's being asked to work in a contact.

Once he's warmed up he will settle and accept it but understandably it does take him a while (and lots of stretching breaks) to settle.

I do however feel that it takes it toll on me more when he does try and lean because I'm now trying to maintain the contact and use flexion/bend/half halts to stop him leaning rather than just subconciously slipping the reins!

I'm wondering whether even changing the snaffle might help - i.e. from a loose ring to a french link (which he used to ride in) - or even an eggbutt although I always thought that the point of the loose ring was that they would be less included to lean!
 
I'd focus on the lightness, using all the exercises you just mentioned, before worrying about "collection." The horse already needs to be in self-carriage, light in the hand, and bendy before he can properly flex his pelvis and sit back on his hocks. This is true for most horses, but especially these drafty types, who don't have the most uphill, collected builds like an Iberian or dressage-bred warmblood, say, and who's natural tendency is to lean and dive down on your hand.
 
BeauBear said:
I'm wondering whether even changing the snaffle might help - i.e. from a loose ring to a french link (which he used to ride in) - or even an eggbutt although I always thought that the point of the loose ring was that they would be less included to lean!
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Yes... thats why I suggested playing around with different types of snaffle.

I had a horse whole was generally ok whatever snaffle he was in. I then tried him in a single linked cheapo sweet iron bit, and he was totally different in it...

This cheapo bit "in theory" wouldnt have been very good. Single link/cheapo bits often have one side longer than the other, but he loved it!
 
wench said:
Yes... thats why I suggested playing around with different types of snaffle.

I had a horse whole was generally ok whatever snaffle he was in. I then tried him in a single linked cheapo sweet iron bit, and he was totally different in it...

This cheapo bit "in theory" wouldnt have been very good. Single link/cheapo bits often have one side longer than the other, but he loved it!
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Thanks Wench - where to start though!! There are so many to chose from!! And then there are the ported ones or tongue saver ones!

Think I'll see if I can dig out his old french link hanging cheek - although from memory he tended to lean on this more!
 
Might be worth having a poke around the net and see if there is anyone around you that offers bitting clinics.

If not, when is your dentist next due? They can give a good idea of mouth confirmation. Failing that, have a good look in his mouth yourself, and make a note of what you can see. At a guess he's got a fleshy tounge.

You say you have some basic bits at home. Try those, and note what happens. Ring a bit bank (theres a really good one in Leicestershire), and you will probably find something that suits.
 
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