Bitting trouble - Dutch Warmblood

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Hoppa

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I got a rescue horse last year, amongst many other problems.. he would shake his head violently when being ridden/ lunged, violent enough to bring both fronts off the ground.Had his teeth checked and he had a very small wolf tooth, which had been smashed, shallow roots and very wobbly. After having it removed he was much better.

He has a typical Dutch warmblood mouth, low palette, enormous tongue, very short from lips to corners of mouth.

I'm bringing him back into full time work now, and as he is very fussy in the mouth (understandably) am searching for a bit which he will relax in to get him going forward into the contact.

I've tried:-

single joint eggbutt snaffle, he liked the fixed rings, but would go berserk with any contact as I think the single joint was poking his palette and/or pinching. tongue over bit or hanging out side of mouth.

french link eggbutt, as above

equiport, straight bar nathe, he chewed it and also started a different type of head tossing and dribbling, i think the mouth piece was too thick for him to swallow properly.

Nathe with peanut joint, as above.

Neue Schule starter bit with lozenge, as above the salox made him salivate ALOT and i think the lozenge is so big again he couldn't swallow.

with all the above, he evades the bit by pushing on it with his tongue, tongue over bit or even trying to get it between his teeth.

Just been lent a Pee Wee, which is supposed to stop all evasions.... not too bad, the sweet iron is encouraging him to be over active in the mouth, salivating, drooling, plus he pushes it around a lot. I can sometimes here it knocking on what i imagine is his upper canine.

I'm sure someone will suggest, I stick an eggbutt snaffle back in and strap his mouth shut with a flash, until he submits to it... good theory however he is so stressed, uncomfortable and starts head shaking and rearing. So I've decided thats not a sensible option.

And yes, I have had his teeth checked/ worked on regularly and no there is nothing unusual.

And yes, potentially I could ride in a hackamore/ bitless once he is back in work for schooling, but for lungeing/ long reining, ground work he is much safer handled in a bit. Hes been out of work for a long time and needs reminding what it is all about.

Anyone have any suggestions for me?

Thanks x
 
myler might be worth a look contact a bit bank....

mine is also funny about tongue pressure, also has low palette huge tongue and fleshy lips!! not much going for her!! - she is in a 14mm neue shule training bit with full cheeks. seems ok in it at mo - and boy we have tried some bits - mylers didnt work for us but think thats just us - mylers do work well for lots of horses - go down a size though mine takes 5.5 and their 5.5 is massive.
my horse does go well in hartell pelham too - but dont think you should go down that route.
you need something that fits the mouth nicely but small lozenge -

i do also use a drop noseband it doesnt strap mouth shut and only comes into action if she opens her mouth to evade (she can open it enough to chew and take a treat so not too tight.

ooh just had thought someone did once suggest demi anky??? possibly might work?
 
Have you tried a basic myler. I have my horse in one and he is really fussy, sensitive, he would head shake a lot on the lunge/ ridden and in a normal snaffle he was really sharp you could hardly touch the reins.
He seems much better now.
It could be worth a try, quite thin, curved, small roller on the joint.
 

Thanks Kezimac, he has a 14mm NS starter.. but it is loose ring, you are right it might be worth trying something like a full cheek. He seems to prefer the stability of a fixed ring over loose ring. I'll have a look on ebay... I keep getting bit bank bits.. but he tends to leave teeth marks on and i never send them back! :-)
 
Sorry I have no suggestions but will be interested in replies. I have GWB who I still havent managed to fidn the right bit. A rugby pelham - the rubber is too big for his mouth.

Uncomfortable in the jointed snaffle but like yours seemed to like the fixed ring

French link loose ring cyprium, I might as well have cotton wool in his mouth. Thankfully i dont have the tongue over bit problem, had a racehorse that did it was a nightmare


ETA have you got a link for bit bank?
 
im not going to say strap his mouth shut but.....one of the horses i regularly have at mine for schooling for a client has a very *nervous*mouth-she was ridden in a happy mouth and loose caveson noseband but almost pushes it side to side in her mouth,flapping her tongue at it and nervously grinding, she would panic and headshake if she couldnt flip it back to central.you could barely take any contact.

a snug flash noseband stopped her pushing it side to side thus stopped the panicking because it STAYED central.a metal bit (NS starter) also moved more easily in her mouth without dragging on her lips-et voila, a settled mouth,and a nice steady contact.

i want to highlight the fact that in the HM and loose noseband she ran round looking stressed and tense and in the snug flash has floppy ears and relaxed muscles-im not tying her mouth shut to force submission she is genuinely happier when the bit is held still in her mouth.

wouldnt worry about the drool, some hores produce a lot, some barely any.

so, id try i think-lozenge, eggbutt snaffle and a snuggish flash noseband.
 
Sorry i know its off topic but what other problems did you have? could they be connected or adding as to why your horse is uncomfortable in the mouth?

Just thinking out of the box that’s all, excessive drooling can be a sign of pain...but I agree some horses do produce more anyway, but some horses express discomfort through their mouths, the problem as such may not just lie with what bit your using perhaps?

Have you tried a bitless bridle just to see if there is a difference when being ridden? I know its not an answer if you use one for a while just as a trial to see if there is any difference, if you horse has suffered badly in the past with this wolf tooth, it may just take some time until he realises that there is not going to be any future pain and see if he settles more when being ridden.
 
Have you tried a thin straight bar with a port? Our mare also has a typical warmblood mouth much the same as you described and we found that she was much happier in a thin straight bar with a small port. Obviously not everyone likes using straight bar bits though.
We also ended up in a bit that is on the small side for her but she seems happier with as little movement as possible. Other then that, a full cheek or fulmer snaffle with a french link / oval link may be worth a try, again we found this suited our mare as she liked the support and snug fitting of full cheeks which stopped her moving the bit around so much in her mouth. We also found that thinner mouth pieces were a lot more comfortable for her then thicker and anything shaped or mullen mouth styled were a very bad fit and very uncomfortable for her. Hope you find a bit that suits
smile.gif
 

Thank Prince33sp4rkle, thats an interesting point of view. And I've taken your advice on board.

Seeing as bit design has moved on so much in terms of what we know about horses mouth anatomy in last 15 years, as he has had such a hard life, I'm determined to treat him as sympathetically as possible.

I'm just acutely aware of the 'old school' who grew up riding in an eggbutt or a pelham (I was one of them!) but thats probably needs a seperate post! I get frustrated by people who won't try new things, even if it could make their riding experience better. Ha ha although i notice they've all given up on big canvas/jute rugs... LOL

Sport horse breeding has become more prolific in that time period too.. so we are now dealing with new conformations which weren't as abundant 20 years ago. The average joe public, couldn't afford one back then!

I should have perhaps mentioned that I have tried various noseband combos too.. he hated the drop, not keen on a flash, but was oddly content in a grackle.. at the moment he has a plain caversson.

Summerleft...
www.horsebitbank.com - good
www.thehorsebitshop.co.uk - little bit slow
 
fab thanks for the links


I know what you mean, when I grew up with horses it was snaffle, kimblewick, pelham end of

I do think we shouldnt go soft on horses as it can have serious repercusions but I do think with the advances available we should be more open to them
 
Mine was like this, had no end of bitting issues, he is in a vulcanite loosering snaffle now with a fairly tight drop noseband and is is brilliant in it. Never looked back.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Have you tried a thin straight bar with a port? Our mare also has a typical warmblood mouth much the same as you described and we found that she was much happier in a thin straight bar with a small port.

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly what I was going to suggest. I had a Dutch warmblood with a similar, + a low palate, and he hated any bit that was not absolutely straight.
 
I have a very similar problem (DWB).

Tried Myler, tried Nathe, tried pelham (yikes!), tried hackamore (double yikes!), tried French Link.

Currently in the Myler.

Have found that working her in the Pessoa has helped to stop her arguing with the bit. Because the Pessoa does not react as it were to her throwing her head around, she tends not bother: I am learning to replicate the Pessoa's action (or rather lack of it) and she is improving and is softer and more accepting of the bit. The only time we really get a discussion now is coming back down a transition - but that could just be a big, daft, young DWB thing!
 
How high do you carry your hands? If you already carry them fairly high, then ignore me- but an Eggbutt won't put any pressure on his tongue, and shouldn't pinch his tongue or damage the roof of his mouth if you have a high hand carriage. It will point forwards in his mouth and act on the corners of his mouth.

Someone once told me that it isn't so much the 'old style' bits that are the problem, it's that people are promting a lower hand carriage of late (because people stress much more about being 'on the bit') and therefore the bits exert a different action and have become a 'problem'.
 

Thanks Mrs Mozart, what model of myler are you using?

Is she the horse in your signature? what a beauty, similar shape to my lad, except he has a freakishly huge head :-)

ooh I forgot about what happened when i tried a pelham! LOL... dribbling was the lease of my worries!
 
I have a Dutch WB with the same kind of mouth conformation and a similar incident with a tooth (his was sharp and pressing on his lips with the noseband which made him bridle lame). He loves the NS Demi-Anky and he is happier without a flash at all. For a while after his tooth was sorted I had to ride him in a drop noseband until he forgot about the pain, but now he is fine again.
 
try Sprenger - my warmblood was a nightmare to bit -tried so many brands and types really fussy - but he liked the sprenger KK bit (pricy but worth every penny for a happy horse!)
 

Alesea, a single joint bit such as an eggbutt works using a "nutcracker" action. This is what he objects too. Put one over your forearm and ask someone to take up a contact. then vary the contact higher or lower as you are suggesting and see if it feels better...

add to that an enormous tongue.. which forces the joint to push against his pallet. A fleshy mouth, which when pressure is on the corners.. pushes the flesh into his teeth..

I'm just struggling to get him happy enough to long rein/ lunge with side reins. He been out of work for a year and if I do ride him, which is rare I wouldn't even be able to take up enough pressure to point the bit down in his mouth LOL
 
Mine won't go in a flash but is fine in a drop. He would go like this
059-1.jpg


Then snatch at the bit and fling his head about. he would get into the above frame by drawing his tongue back from the bit.
He is now going more like this:
IMG_5987.jpg


IMG_6020.jpg
 
Hi Hoppa,

I would deffo recommend trying a myler, I ride my warmblood in the comfort snaffle (dressage legal) and she is fab in it, she was very very fussy in the mouth before hand.

If you do decide to try one please be aware that it will feel very odd for your horse the first time you use it, due to the independant side movement.

My girl had a bit of a major frap out first time it was in her mouth, but settled very very quickly and we have not look back since,

I hope you find a solution very soon, its a difficult and frustrating thing to resolve.

Gem
 
[ QUOTE ]
.

Just been lent a Pee Wee, which is supposed to stop all evasions.... not too bad, the sweet iron is encouraging him to be over active in the mouth, salivating, drooling, plus he pushes it around a lot. I can sometimes here it knocking on what i imagine is his upper canine.


Anyone have any suggestions for me?


[/ QUOTE ]

I like my PeeWee and in fact am now on my 2nd. I use it on draft horses with similar mouth conformation to your WB. I suggest that if the bit is banging on his canine teeth it is too low in his mouth, so it would be worth putting it up a hole at each side. If the other bits (which I agree can have lots of drawbacks for this type of horse) were also too low that might explain why you have had so much difficulty. I think it can sometimes be difficult to see exactly how a bit should fit with very fleshy wrinkly lips. I loaned a myler bit from a bit bank and halfway round a hack realised that it was too low when she started literally throwing the bit back in her mouth. If you can get the bit in the right position it could well stop all the unwanted activity. Do let me know if this works.

ETA I really wouldn't shut his mouth with a noseband. He is telling you as plainly as he can that his mouth is uncomfortable, fastening it shut will not make him more comfortable, that will just stop him being able to be able to tell you about it. Unless of course he decides that in order to communicate he will have to throw his head around even more.
 

Thanks Pearlsasinger,

When I got to the yard tonight I used the Pee Wee to long rein him, but this time I put it in the standard position (usually use the corrective one) he went much better... still spent ages not concentrating on where he was walking and more on opening and closing his mouth and trying to get his tongue over it. But still.. no head shaking! Then I just got in and read your post... :-)

Too true. I stopped half way to try and see why he was fussing with it.. parted his lips and could only see acres of flesh.. LOL

Also anyone whos interested, I found a nice lady who runs a website called www.thehorsebittrader.co.uk defintely worth a look if you go through bits like i do :-)
 
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