Bizarre Hack with friend, advice wanted.

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Mystery1989

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Will try and keep this short and basic.
Today I went on a ride for 30mins, I have my own horse and plenty of experience, it was booked at a riding place, and was mainly for my friend who hasn't rode in over 30 years and wanted to give it ago. She has a lot of health problems, but are manageable, but also something that we make anyone aware of when we've looked round these stables.
When we arrived we were greeted by a woman who we had seen a few days before, and then a bloke who we never met before, and he was very loud. We realised he was the one who was taking us out. As we got on and went to set out, I was stuck at the front, now for me this isn't an issue, but I didn't know the area, and normally when you book one of these rides in the woods, or anywhere, your normally following not leading. I thought the bloke would over take and take over but this never happened. Obviously my friend very nervous, and unsure was in the middle of us. The first 5 minutes, were ok, but the bloke never shut up to put it politely. He was still very loud and we almost thought he was showing of and maybe trying to break the ice and lighten the mood, but as time went on I was still in front, and I had to keep asking where we were going, with little effort from him to inform me which direction, he started making comments of going hunting and being so drunk his horse would drag him home, making very inappropriate remarks, sexually as well as other remarks of how of his head he can get. He said he didn't know the horses very well that we went out on, which we later found out he has worked at this place for 6months and rides them all every week. He wasn't holding onto his horse, carrying how he or we were riding. His arms were all over the place and he was letting his horse constantly run into and push my friends horse, which as my friend was the one who needed the reassurances was very of in it'self. When we got near the ride and myself making several remarks and hints of I had no clue where to go, and some responses would be, he didn't really care, or he forgot he was riding. As we came out of the woods, there was a tree and then a patch of grass, I stopped my horse once we reached almost to the grass to wait for direction and my friend, then the bloke let his horse yet again for probably the 20th time, go up to my friends horse, and his horse then swung his back end at my friends, which caused her horse to get out of the way and the only place to go was a tree, and as it was a big tree, very low down, my friend fell of, not a bad fall, but a fall in my opinion shouldn't of happened.
My friends foot got stuck in the stirrup so she was on the floor with one leg in the air, I paused for a second in almost disbelief that this had been allowed to happen, and saw the bloke was just laughing, so I through myself of and ran to my friend to get her foot out of the stirrup, it wasn't until then, that the bloke casually came of his horse and said don't get of its fine I'll sort it. At that point it was to late, and far to long for someone to be stuck in a potentially dangerous situation, seeing he still had his horse close to hers.
He didn't check if she was alright, and I was worried a bit as my friend can go in to anaphylaxis shock sometimes out of no where or from a sudden shock etc.. so I was concerned for her, which the bloke should of been made aware of. Which we had done. He then said we should walk back, my friend insisted on getting back on, after making sure she was ok, he eventually after me prompting him to let me hold his horse as he was looking completely out of it, so he could help my friend back on. Once back he made a prompt exit of the horse and out of our sights.

Now on this whole ride he didn't stop talking once, he made some very rude remarks, sexual, out of line on other subjects and had his arms all over the place, hardly holding onto his horse, his horse was very jumpy and worked up which for me would be from the guys behaviour. He was loud, swearing almost every other sentence and didn't make any effort to take the lead, ride properly and even said we shouldn't worry how we ride, and that position didn't matter.

I just want peoples opinion on this situation, I have talked to the woman, and told her most of it but going back up this week to have a good chat over the situation, nothing was said about my friends fall when we got back, we were pretty much ignored and no one asked if she was ok apart from myself. We also found out this bloke does all pony clubs and deals with the kids a lot and apparently never shuts up. We had no apology from the bloke and we feel almost like it was surreal and that maybe he had taken something. I have never experienced anyone like this for the many years Ive done lessons, and hacks and everything else.

What would your opinions be and advice? Thank you if you read all that!!
 
He doesn't sound appropriate for pony club or anything really. Was he drunk?
What an awful experience for your friend.
I hope you didn't pay.
 
sounds like a very sticky situation to be in.
You are right , he sounds like he's taken something or he's just not experienced enough to be on the job. Did the fall get written down in the accident/fall book?
I hope you got a full refund and i certainly would make sure to warm friends/family about the guy that took you out incase they book in future :( , let us know how you get on and i hope your friend is okay x
 
Thanks for your replies, no it wasn't wrote in any book, we were basically ignored, I had to put the horse I was on in a stable and sort her out, and we didn't see the guy once we were of, so we just left to get our heads round what had happened, as it was just something you never expect to experience. It is meant to be registered, this is why we are going back up on Thursday, can't tomorrow as work but we don't feel we can live with the feeling of how he acted with us and him looking after kids for pony club, he wouldn't even get near my child. My friend was ok, I made sure of it, but the fact it happened, I felt awful for it myself, which is what the guy should of been feeling surely? I'm still quiet be-wilded and feeling like, did that really just happen?
 
If that had been a member of staff at any of the trekking centres or riding schools I've worked at he wouldn't have lasted 6hrs let alone 6mnths! Hid behaviour sounds completely inappropriate and completely incompetent. I would report everything to the owner/manager of the establishment. With his lax attitude it was lucky nothing worse happened. He may have taken something, he may have been nervous or whatever but he doesn't sound responsible or capable enough to be in that position in the first place.
 
Mystery1989 said:
Thanks for your replies, no it wasn't wrote in any book, we were basically ignored, I had to put the horse I was on in a stable and sort her out, and we didn't see the guy once we were of, so we just left to get our heads round what had happened, as it was just something you never expect to experience. It is meant to be registered, this is why we are going back up on Thursday, can't tomorrow as work but we don't feel we can live with the feeling of how he acted with us and him looking after kids for pony club, he wouldn't even get near my child. My friend was ok, I made sure of it, but the fact it happened, I felt awful for it myself, which is what the guy should of been feeling surely? I'm still quiet be-wilded and feeling like, did that really just happen?
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This is pure negligence on behalf of the yard, I'll be willing to wager the escort has no qualifications, first aid training etc. I would write a letter of complaint (and send it by recorded delivery so you know they cant just ignore it), State all the facts as they happened and that you are very unhappy with the service. Also if they are BHS registered please do report it to the BHS site, not filing an accident report is inbreach of the law and the BHS will take a dim view of it. Also leave a negative review on trip advisor if possible to warn other potential clients, nect time it may not be a little accident that happens because of their negligence.
 
kez81 said:
This is pure negligence on behalf of the yard, I'll be willing to wager the escort has no qualifications, first aid training etc. I would write a letter of complaint (and send it by recorded delivery so you know they cant just ignore it), State all the facts as they happened and that you are very unhappy with the service. Also if they are BHS registered please do report it to the BHS site, not filing an accident report is inbreach of the law and the BHS will take a dim view of it. Also leave a negative review on trip advisor if possible to warn other potential clients, nect time it may not be a little accident that happens because of their negligence.
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Sorry to stalk you OP, but you are quite near me according to your profile, would you PM the name of the place you went to please? I would like to know if its the same place that popped into my head the second I finished reading your post!
 
Was he drunk ? He sounds like he might have been.
I am sorry this happened to your friend I hopes she's ok and has another go at a better managed place.
 
Report the RS to the licensing authority - your LA. They must by law keep an up-to-date accident book and if they don't are breaking the terms of their licence. It sounds as if the 'escort' was not in a fit state to be on a horse, never mind in charge of a ride. You could also report them to the HSE. They really should not be allowed to charge people for this 'service' or to be anywhere near children.

A RS near me got into so much trouble because of not recording an accident properly that they stopped being a RS and concentrated on the livery side of the business.
 
What a horrible situation. I would think the bloke was under the influence of something and should not have been in charge of anything! If he is in this state when in charge of children, a call to children's services would be warranted. Inform the owner/manager but be prepared for them to make light of it, as they must know.
 
Gosh OP, what an awful experience. I can't think what the owners of this place are playing at (unless the man is an owner, hope not!). There are so many rules about Health and Safety,not to mention hefty insurance premiums and they seem to have broken nearly every rule and regulation there is.

I think Bizarre is a mild term - alarming and frightening would be my reaction.
 
You need to both write down what happened. Concentrate on using facts, not emotive words. You must make it very clear that the accident was not recorded. Send to council, HSE, pony club (it doesn't sound like he is appropriate to be in charge of adults, let alone children) and the trekking centre.
 
Write an official complaint to the riding school, detailing all events, things that were said, and the actions (or lack of) he took.

Report the same details to your local authority. It sounds like he should have in no way been in charge of anything let alone horses and customers, and I have a sneaking suspicion that he may lack any of the appropriate qualifications.....

Report to HSE also, as it sounds like negligence on the companies behalf, especially if they did not record it in any accident books, or take any necessary precautions in terms of whether your friend would need any first aid treatment etc (I would assume not at this stage, but still, there are processes to follow when accidents happen, and with every good reason!).

If his behaviour was that lewd, and that out of hand, I wouldn't be adverse to reporting him further as an individual too.
 
I am very interested and glad you took the time to post on this and am sorry about your friend and the fall.
I am an RS rider and especially in the earlier days liked to visit and hack from riding schools when away from home,or to enjoy new places.
I have had some extremely good and well led hacks from BHS recognised centres. But I have also encountered what I regard as inadequate and even risky hacks. My OH and I made it a rule to visit yards before booking, if we possibly could.Just a visit is enough to see clients setting off on a group hack with no attention paid to the way tack is fitted or stirrups adjusted.
Anyone visiting a yard just for a one off hack, is likely to be fobbed off with any old escort or horse. You wont be returning so what happens doesnt much matter. If you make it clear that you can already ride, you will probably be regarded as competent to manage the hack yourself, and may even be expecting a fast and demanding ride. If you are elderly or novice like my OH and me, your status is at once lower. On one occasion we were segregated from the "real riders" and went on a hack which might well have ended like yours did. The escort gave no supervision or support and a third lady on our "easy" hack eventually decided she wanted to give up and return to the yard. Of course your friend could have done the same?
My OH was far more of a beginner than the lady who gave up because she could not stop her horse grazing and make him move on - I showed my OH what to do, circling and backing up our horses and keeping them firmly occupied while we waited for the hack to resume. The RS escort with us could have done the same and helped and supported the unfortunate lady who lost her money, was humiliated and didnt get a nice ride.
Even worse than the escort who simply ignores the problems is one who shows off by leading a hack of beginners over obstacles and sharp turns. My only jump ever (over a fallen tree) was done on such a ride and (riding bitless for the first time in my life) I was hit by the arm of a signpost as the leader wove and zigzagged ahead of me without warning. You were pretty lucky to ride first!
Sometimes one can go to a RS to hack and have a great time with an experienced instructor, then return for a second hack and be taken out by another member of staff. If staff are sick or absent for family reasons, casual staff can step in and they will certainly take you for a nice ride, tho often with hairy moments. That is because the qualified RI I wanted was needed in the school to give lessons. Hacking is the poor relative in the UK.
The attitude seems a bit different in the USA where trail ride centres cater for a mass public and the Wranglers are knowledgeable about horses and take some care.
Above all in the USA, I have been taught to keep a safe distance between my horse and the horse ahead. In the UK they apply a different rule which makes me nervous - they want the horse to stay almost touching the one in front of it in case the horse behind decides to make a dash to catch up the one ahead. Like your friend, several of my own falls have been caused by spooks with a horse too close behind or my horse being too close in front to allow me to take evasive action.
I was a car driver before I was a rider and I like a safe distance.
I am concerned too that your friend had her foot caught in the stirrup. I dont wear safety stirrups in school riding lessons but I do wear them hacking and in future I may take them whenever I am hacking away from home.
It is really nice to assume that the insurance and local authority might intervene. My experience is that the client is always wrong. As a visitor to a riding centre, and hearing riders talk, one may see it is high risk and decide not to ride there. But even if a client gets killed, it seems to be put down to the general high risk nature of riding, or the rider is assumed to have made a mistake. All that one can do is vote with one's feet and not ride at that place again. And if you want to continue riding at any school, be careful not to complain about it.
In your case for example the school might easily complain that you should have asked to go out with two escorts, one to lead and one to bring up the rear.
As for the recording of falls - that may vary from yard to yard. You dont know that the fall was not recorded, you only know that your friend did not countersign. Luckily there was no recorded injury and the recording of falls in which no one is hurt seems a grey area. However, I cant really comment on this as I am super fussy about safety and in spite of my sour opinion of some hacks and some RS treatment of visiting riders over the years, I have never yet fallen off when hacking as a visiting rider away from home.

At least by posting this you have drawn attention to what seems to me quite an issue. Tho the last thing we want to do is to discourage hacking and drive all riders into the safety of the school.
 
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Skib said:
As for the recording of falls - that may vary from yard to yard. You dont know that the fall was not recorded, you only know that your friend did not countersign. Luckily there was no recorded injury and the recording of falls in which no one is hurt seems a grey area.
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The law in England, which is where I assume this accident happened, is that any accident which occurs during the execution of a business must be recorded in an official Accident Book. Failure to do so runs the risk of negating the business insurance and is counter to the provisions of the RS licence. I would have expected the RS to have to ask the rider who had the accident and any witnesses to provide their personal details, including full name, address and d.o.b. which is information that is unlikely to have been given just to book a ride. The accident has to be recorded in case of a subsequent deterioration in the person's condition e.g. no apparent/visible had injury but the victim loses consciousness later in the day.

I was surprised to see that you are not encouraged to keep one horse length between horses by RS that you have experienced in UK. When I was first learning to ride, I was always taught to do so and more recently when my horse was off work, I had a few lessons on school horses and again that distance was the norm.
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Pearlsasinger said:
Skib said:
As for the recording of falls - that may vary from yard to yard. You dont know that the fall was not recorded, you only know that your friend did not countersign. Luckily there was no recorded injury and the recording of falls in which no one is hurt seems a grey area.
QUOTE]

The law in England, which is where I assume this accident happened, is that any accident which occurs during the execution of a business must be recorded in an official Accident Book. Failure to do so runs the risk of negating the business insurance and is counter to the provisions of the RS licence. I would have expected the RS to have to ask the rider who had the accident and any witnesses to provide their personal details, including full name, address and d.o.b. which is information that is unlikely to have been given just to book a ride. The accident has to be recorded in case of a subsequent deterioration in the person's condition e.g. no apparent/visible had injury but the victim loses consciousness later in the day.

I was surprised to see that you are not encouraged to keep one horse length between horses by RS that you have experienced in UK. When I was first learning to ride, I was always taught to do so and more recently when my horse was off work, I had a few lessons on school horses and again that distance was the norm.
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I was about to respond with similar.

Businesses may think they don't have a duty towards reporting accidents and near misses and will shirk their duties out of ignorance or laziness, but actually it is legislation that they do so. Failure to comply, if then reported by another person, would usually mean further follow up from HSE or other relevant authority, and action taken where necessary.

ALL businesses have a duty of care not only to their staff, but to customers and visitors, to provide a safe working place, or safe place for delivering services. That is non-optional.

Of course the RS may claim that you inherently know the risks involved in riding simply by mounting, BUT there are many rules and guidelines in place for Health and Safety to ensure this is keep to a minimum, and by failing to follow procedure such as reporting accidents, they have already left themselves open to being at fault simply by the failure to act. In either instance, I would still report the RS for serious lack of care, as you may not be the only one to have experienced a similar thing there.

ETA- OP did the riding school fill out any forms or get you to sign an agreement before your first lesson? Usually covering things like name, contact details, emergency details, any existing conditions, riding ability etc and then a disclaimer that you are aware of the risks of riding? Most riding schools and liveries will have something similar to prove that the discussion has taken place and to ensure that they have your understanding of the risk (I am not sure if these are now mandatory as part of insurance/H&S etc?). That does not however mitigate them from their health and safety duties. I just wonder, because if none of that took place, again that goes against their efforts towards a safe environment and ensuring customer safety.


Just to state- I have always lived in the UK, and wherever I have ridden and been taught, I have always been reminded that when riding in succession it is one horses length between each horse. I would assume that most riding schools follow similar to avoid any potential accidents!

See here for an overview: http://www.hse.gov.uk/contact/

Hope your friend is ok btw.
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A formal letter of complaint written and sent recorded delivery to the riding school owner/manager, CC BHS licencing department (or whatevr the relevant section of the BHS is - ring them to find out who best to send a copy to). Or ABRS if it's registered with them.
 
I would certainly be talking to the yard manager but fairy lights that's a bit over the top.
No wonder riding schools are all closing down !
 
concorde said:
I would certainly be talking to the yard manager but fairy lights that's a bit over the top.
No wonder riding schools are all closing down !
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Do you really think that it is acceptable for someone who, for whatever reason, was not in a fit state to accompany a hack, to do so? The 'escort' may have been drunk, drugged (either illegally or by prescription), or ill bu he definitely was NOT, according to OP, fit to be on a horse, never mind in charge of a group of paying customers on horses and the YO should have recognised that.
What on earth do people think that talking to RS will do? They must have known that he was not fit to do the job but they left him to it, putting customers in danger.
BHS do not license RS, they may approve them but the local council is the licensing authority. There is no point complaining to BHS if they do not approve the RS and many are not approved.

It does concern me that so many posters, who I would have expected to do so, do not know their rights/RS responsibilities
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Do you really think that it is acceptable for someone who, for whatever reason, was not in a fit state to accompany a hack, to do so? The 'escort' may have been drunk, drugged (either illegally or by prescription), or ill bu he definitely was NOT, according to OP, fit to be on a horse, never mind in charge of a group of paying customers on horses and the YO should have recognised that.
What on earth do people think that talking to RS will do? They must have known that he was not fit to do the job but they left him to it, putting customers in danger.
BHS do not license RS, they may approve them but the local council is the licensing authority. There is no point complaining to BHS if they do not approve the RS and many are not approved.

It does concern me that so many posters, who I would have expected to do so, do not know their rights/RS responsibilities
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Perhaps the Yard Manager/owner wasn't there that day and was unaware of how bad this ride leader was. So I would be writing anyway plus OP would been seen to do the formal thing. A copy to the council is essential, and to be honest, I'd be visiting the council and asking to speak to the person doing the licencing personally. As to sueing for damages, the OP states no-one was actually hurt so that would be a waste of time and could be seen as attempted fraud. Trading Standards might also be interested so cc them in as well.
 
Mystery1989 said:
She has a lot of health problems, but are manageable, but also something that we make anyone aware of when we've looked round these stables.
When we arrived we were greeted by a woman who we had seen a few days before, and then a bloke who we never met before, and he was very loud. situation, .............. Once back he made a prompt exit of the horse and out of our sights................



I just want peoples opinion on this situation, I have talked to the woman, and told her most of it but going back up this week to have a good chat over the situation, nothing was said about my friends fall when we got back, we were pretty much ignored and no one asked if she was ok apart from myself. !
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fatpiggy said:
Perhaps the Yard Manager/owner wasn't there that day and was unaware of how bad this ride leader was. So I would be writing anyway plus OP would been seen to do the formal thing. A copy to the council is essential, and to be honest, I'd be visiting the council and asking to speak to the person doing the licencing personally. As to sueing for damages, the OP states no-one was actually hurt so that would be a waste of time and could be seen as attempted fraud. Trading Standards might also be interested so cc them in as well.
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Well I certainly read OP as this woman was in charge, whatever her official title. I can see no point in any further communication with this RS except copying them into a letter to the licensing authority (local council) and HSE, both of which will definitely investigate.

I agree that there were no compensatable damages done.
 
Thank you all for your many comments. My friend has pulled her ligaments in her left arm, but other than that is fine today. We have talked this over and both made notes of what we thought were unacceptable and we are planning to go to the yard tomorrow to see the woman in charge. Hopefully to go through things and find out whether or not the accident was written down.
The bloke who took us, I found out from the woman in charge that he normally rides this horses, is normally so careful and safe, more so in the situation we were in, with my friend having health issues but also for not riding so long. She also doesn't understand why he left me at the front and didn't take the lead, never mind not care about giving me directions. I wasn't fussed riding wise as I have the experience, and my friend liked the horse she was on and the scenery and it hasn't put us of.
Our main concern is the bloke that took us and his behaviour and the things he was saying, which if he took kids out with that language I was be disgusted, or out with just one lady on there own with him, with how he was, I'd be worried for her. We did go up before we booked a ride to see the place, and we saw the woman who were seeing tomorrow, and she was lovely, and we thought she was the one taking us for our ride. She has said that this bloke normally doesn't shut up and is told a lot to wind it down, I couldn't work or have someone like that working for me, so how he's gone 6 months does make me wonder what other rides and things have gone wrong, or inappropriate things that have been said.

My friend herself said last night she wanted to go back up to speak to who was in charge, so we have wrote down our facts ready to take them up in the morning in the hope something will be done over this.
 
Also the length inbetween each other normally stands where ever I go also, even when I hack my own horse out with a friend or anything we do this automatically, so it was bizarre the bloke let his constantly run up my friends horse's backside all the time. Because my friend was enjoying the ride she didn't overly think much of it, obviously putting her trust in a bloke she thought, knew what he was doing, hence not going back.
 
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