Bloods positive for liver failure

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dozzie

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Posted a few days ago in NL about my old boy (32 yr old) who I suspected had liver failure. Well the blood test has come back and there are signs of liver problems. The vet has explained that it could be old age, it could be an infection or it could be cancer (in simple terms)

He convinced me to try antibiotics and B12 supplement first although in my mind it is just delaying the inevitable, harsh as it may sound. Basically he has dropped a lot of weight and due to severe redworm damage as a youngster he doesnt maintain or gain weight easily, so naturally i am concerned as to whether i can get enough weight back on him for the winter- IF it is an infection. (personally i think it is just old age or cancer)

So I think as i have agreed to this perhaps i should try to get weight on him somehow. He is incredibly finnicky.

This is what hasnt worked in the past...

Blue chip
pink powder
equilibra
sixteen plus
veteran mixes
barley (boiled) (it used to work but doesnt now)
Alfa a- doesnt like it
Vegetable oil-doesnt like it

What has worked

Build up cubes soaked and sugar beet(has only maintained his weight not put any on)
linseed (cooked- keeps him eating as he loves it)

Good grazing. At the moment he is in during the day due to photosensitisation.

Whatever I give him has to be extremely palatable and easy to eat. Mixes are out completely. If there is anything in his dinner he doesnt like he wont eat his dinner.

I think he may go for the milk thistle as it is herbal. So i am definitely up for trying that. Not sure he will go for yea sacc.

Any other suggestions. Dont want to overdose him on B12.

Just sort of looking for something i can feed him which is safe.

If i can get some weight gain then i am prepared to go on but realistically it has to be an affordable and manageable diet. Weight wise, on the 1-5 scale he is between 1.5 an 2. Worm count is clear. Teeth ok, bit wobbly in places but ok!

Just one last thing, he will only eat 2 small feeds a day. Anymore and he stops eating.

Having read through this post i think I should just call it a day! But he has lovely eyes...
smile.gif
Is my heart ruling my head here?
 
Bless you, what a hard decision for you! Is he the one on the right in your siggie? Whilst he is bright and cheerful in himself, I should persevere with him. If his quality of life is not good and he starts to lose his 'sparkle' then you will know the time has come. He has had a fantastic 'innings' by the sound of it. It is so hard for us owners to play 'God'. Good luck with him.
 
baileys top line conditioning cube put the weight back on my old boy really well. however i was feeding nearly 1 1/2 bags a week, which if you boy will only eat small feeds i don't think you will get him to eat enough to put the weight back on. sadly i had to let my boy go as i had to be realist (sp) as i couldn't carry on feeding him so much and he was happy in the end.
 
Sorry - that was a bit of a short post!!

It's an old racing trick to get weight on horses.

I have an 18hh who is a fussy eater. I have tried multiple feeds and he gets bored of them. I am currently on a selection from Baileys mixed with Alfa beet.

I was recommended that I try Guiness and it really improved his coat and weight. It wasn't a massive difference but it was a start. At 18hh nothing was going to happen overnight. I fed 1 can a day, but I don't see why you couldn't give a can with each feed.

Another suggestion made to me was an egg in his feed.

Why not give a company such as Baileys a call. They have dedicated nurtitionists that you can speak to on the phone or depending where you are they may send someone out free of charge to your yard to see your horse and do you a diet.

Good Luck with it.
 
No he is not in my siggie.Although i suppose he should be really! The hairy one in siggy is my sec B! LOL! Does she really look 32? She is a youngster!

If i cant get any weight gain, at a sensible cost, then he will be pts this summer.
 
Have you tried Topspec super conditioning flakes? very palatable and Pidge loved them
grin.gif
You could ring Topspec and ask for Nicola she is very good, and I'm sure they'd send you a sample so you could try it first?
Good luck with whatever you decide to do xx
 
I second the Guinness (can be any stout) and the eggs; both well known as appetisers but need to be very small amounts first in case he doesn't like them (try singly, too sickly together I think). The Guinness is full of iron so very good for a pick me up.

There is also a supplement called Kossolian which has B12 in which is very good.

There are also Barley Rings that can be soaked down to a mash, they have added linseed and are good for weight gain and coat condition. There's also Bailey's Number One, which is like breadcrumbs and mixes well.

Have you seen these feeds, I've heard very good reports on them and they might send you samples to try too.
http://dobbinsden.com/html/rowan_barbury_feeds.html

For what it's worth, I think you're admirable for trying but I think you have in all fairness to both him and you, to set a time limit by which if there has been no improvement, that you should call it a day before the weather gets colder and more miserable; but that is my thoughts for what they're worth. I know it's incredibly hard and if new feeds don't help, I can't see any future, I'm sorry, not what you want to hear.
 
if it is any help my friend feeds her old mare calm and condition (allen and page) you have to soak it before you feed it. she drops weight really quick, but when she started her on this it was amazing. good luck with your old boy
 
[ QUOTE ]
For what it's worth, I think you're admirable for trying but I think you have in all fairness to both him and you, to set a time limit by which if there has been no improvement, that you should call it a day before the weather gets colder and more miserable; but that is my thoughts for what they're worth. I know it's incredibly hard and if new feeds don't help, I can't see any future, I'm sorry, not what you want to hear.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all. That is actually exactly how I am feeling. He doesnt help himself. He is on six acres of good grazing with one other horse and doesnt eat. I will give him a chance but if he hasnt picked up in the next few weeks he will be pts this summer. The vet wants me to do this that and the other and tbh I am thinking no. Let him go this summer.
 
dozziesmummy - gonna PM you this as well coz this is so important to know with horses with failing livers. Sorry if you know most of it already - just trying to help. The liver does so much in the horse's body that when it is damaged a whole raft of things can happen. Ned may develop severe photosensitivity as he can't break down the green stuff he eats. He may bleed more easily and bleeds may take a long time to stop. Toxins build up in the blood as the liver becomes increasingly unable to break them down. These toxins can produce neurological damage and the horse becomes depressed and uninterested in life. The horse can become terribly disturbed and may make strange vocalisations and strange actions, ie he may call piteously and either run around frantically or stand with his head pressed against a wall. In grave cases, the horse can self harm or harm the owner. He may develop jaundice and he may lose his appetite as he becomes increasingly unable to break down his food. This is the important part. You may desperately try to cram more and more calories into him as he loses weight but this will make the situation WORSE, not better. A failing liver cannot break down protein so your lad will need a LOW protein diet to reduce the work the liver has to do. However, ALL living things need some protein so what (low) protein you feed him must be the best quality you can afford. That's why you need to be very, very careful about trying "ordinary" weight gain tactics. You will make the problem worse. Milk thistle has been shown to support the liver though this obviously depends on how damaged it is already. B vits (either B-Sure or Yea Sac) will help hind gut digestion so that the horse can get the maximum benefit out of a low protein diet. Yea Sac also stimulates the appetite. I have a rescued mare - long story but her previous owners ignorantly left her with a foal at foot in a field empty of anything except ragwort. Same end result as liver cancer in that the liver becomes increasingly useless as the normal tissue is replaced by scar tissue. I spoke directly with Prof Derek Knottenbelt of Liverpool University who is a world expert in ragwort poisoning and liver damage in horses. The man is a saint. His e-mail is knotty@liverpool.ac.uk and he is always happy to try to help and advise horse owners. He has given me an amazing amount of common sense information and advice. He has worked closely with Dr Theresa Holland of D&H to develop diets to support the livers of damaged horses and if you ring D&H and specifically mention his name and ask for a detailed diet, they will work one up for you. Your challenge is to get weight on WITHOUT overloading whatever remaining liver function there is with high protein levels. My rescued mare has done brilliantly on D&H Alfalfa, sloppy wet Speedibeet, D&H milk thistle and Yea Sac. She also has a few handfuls of my veteran's Mollichaff Veteran Chaff as it is also low protein and packed with antioxidants, nettles and mint. All horses love the smell and taste. She has haylage over the winter and is out to grass from 5pm to 9am during the summer. She burns horribly if exposed to sunlight and no amount of sun cream will protect her. My girl is 12 so obviously there is a different prognosis from a 32 yr old but she has put on weight and is happy and interacting, albeit still a little distant with other people and horses, though I suspect that is more to do with her past experiences than her ragwort poisoning. DM - do PM me if I can help any more but I'm thinking of you. Prof K said I will know when or if my Angel has had enough and until then, he said whatever I'm doing now, keep doing it coz it's working! Please hug ned for me xxx
 
Rowan barbary do something which soaks up to a porridge like consistency, which is supposed to be very good for veterans. Sorry to be a bit vague, will try and find out more.
The mash is called soft n soak. A friend of mine used Sumo supplement on a very poor TB and it really put the condition on her. Hope you find something that helps, but would agree with you that if you can't get the weight on over the summer it is probably kindest not to put him through another winter. Such a hard decision.
 
Would second trying allen & page calm & condition. My horse was on enormous conditioning mixes over winter trying to get his weight up, half the amount of c&c and I honestly don't think he has ever looked better.

How about readi grass or similar when in stable..?
 
My experience with him is that he doesnt do well on mixes. He does much better on soaked nuts and sugarbeet. He is currently eating his hay which is very unusual but positive.
 
i have just lost a horse due to liver diease try him on ready mash extra it is with the soft and soak range it is a mash that is a soup diet give him vi sorbin witch is a vitiman b6 and b12 supplement. when you keep him in just damp his hay it will be easier to eat and digest try corn oil as well. dont forget it is all about low protin. if there is any chance for him grab it with both hands!
 
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