Bloody spanish horse

[traceyann]

My lastest posts he been really good in fact to good now hes decided to go back to his old ways again. Iv run out of his calma and waiting for more hope it comes soon He rear and boxed at me in his stable and out in the field. Bloody horse i really thought he was getting better Back to square one again. Hes got the hump because he dosent like bad weather then gets the hump because he stuck in his stable there no pleaseing him. We did have a breakthough he bit me really hard on my leg without thinking i smacked him on his neck and he didnt come back at me which is a first Sorry im feeling sorry for myself and having a rant.I dont make a habit of smacking this horse but it really hurt

 

[*hic*]

He's hardly responsible for ordering the calmer is he? Why blame the horse for YOUR inadequacy?

 

[traceyann]

Yes i know im beating myself up about that also i cant believe im so stupid to let myself run out.

 

[lynne_macleod]

Sounds like you have personal space/ leadership issues as the breed is typically not like that or needing a calmer. My PRE stallion cant go out in the winter where we are at all but he would never think of doing that. Hope you're ok? don't beat yourself up try and get to the route of the problem, what have you tried other than the calmer? what's he like to ride / handle? How long have you had him? May be worth while investing in a session or too with an accredited ground trainer to reinstate the boundaries and teach you how to deal with him. Where abouts in the country are you?

 

[littlescallywag]

Maybe have a couple of containers of calmer floating around in case of emergencies,easier said than done if its the dear stuff.
Don't be too hard on yourself at least now u know that the calmer is working and spanish boy needs it.
I know you don't make a habit of smacking him when he bites you but you have put him in his place so maybe he will start respecting you abit more now.
This weather will make even the sanest horse grumpy so don't be too hard on yourself

 

[Miss L Toe]

I know you don't make a habit of smacking him when he bites you but you have put him in his place so maybe he will start respecting you abit more now.

I think you should make a habit of smacking him if he bites you, its what he needs, fluffy cuddles don't work with all / many horses, they are herd animals and will accept this sort of "punishment"

 

[lincolnlady]

He's hardly responsible for ordering the calmer is he? Why blame the horse for YOUR inadequacy?

thats a bit rude!! we have all ran out of the things we need but i suppose you are oh so perfect and never run out!!

 

[Farma]

I think you should make a habit of smacking him if he bites you, its what he needs, fluffy cuddles don't work with all / many horses, they are herd animals and will accept this sort of "punishment"

Totally agree!

 

[Milanesa]

I have read your other posts tracyann and this horse has been difficult for a long time. OP is trying to do best by this horse. Did you manage to speak to any specialist breeders/ owners of other Spanish horses to help you with him?

 

[Tinsel Trouble]

It's very old school and I know that people won't agree with it, but (in the '80s) when my mum bought her first proper dressage horse she used to take a wooden spoon in the stable with her as he would lunge, box, kick out and it used to be very dangerous. after 3 days of realising that he was not going to be the herd leader by using one sharp smack every time he went for her he settled down. In the end I had him as my first horse.

These difficult strong animals need to know where in the herd they stand, for your safety you need to be the top of the pecking order so assert yourself. Don't get angry and beat him- but the occasional strong smack won't do any harm! They do much worse to each other in the field!

 

[TigerTail]

I would have a Recommended Associate out from the IH lot - they'd teach you and him different ground work techniques to sort out the pecking order but without resorting to wooden spoons. It may work in some instances but most horses will come to expect it very quickly and work out ways of dodging the hit or getting you back twice as hard.

Spanish breeds are incredibly hot and fast, and if he was imported hes used to a completely different way of life and usually its only men who deal with them over there!

No matter the weather id be having him outside as much as possible, providing he is in a waterproof rug with a bit of wool in it he will be absolutely fine and then hopefully slightly less frustrated in the stable.

http://ihdg.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=ihra heres a list of them

 

[Elsbells]

He sounds a very unhappy horse.

 

[tallyho!]

The Spanish horse is very intelligent and quite arrogant. If he thinks he can manipulate you because of your inconsistencies, he will because he is frustrated by the lack of order. If you think about it from his point of view, he is asking you for things but you fail to respond or give him alternatives or compromise. So he is shutting you out and trying to get you out of his life because he feels he cannot communicate with you.

A calmer will not do anything for a frustrated horse. It is for nervous horses and he is far from nervous.

My advice would be to call a breeder from the BAPSH. Turning him out and ignoring him is one way of dealing with it but you have lost his respect and he will carry on manipulating you.

 

[YasandCrystal]

I would have a Recommended Associate out from the IH lot - they'd teach you and him different ground work techniques to sort out the pecking order but without resorting to wooden spoons. It may work in some instances but most horses will come to expect it very quickly and work out ways of dodging the hit or getting you back twice as hard.

Spanish breeds are incredibly hot and fast, and if he was imported hes used to a completely different way of life and usually its only men who deal with them over there!

No matter the weather id be having him outside as much as possible, providing he is in a waterproof rug with a bit of wool in it he will be absolutely fine and then hopefully slightly less frustrated in the stable.

http://ihdg.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=ihra heres a list of them

^^ This. Also I haven't seen your other posts but what are you feeding him? No sugar or mollasses I hope. If a calmer is making a difference then he is very likely to have a nutrient imbalance. Most calmers which are competition legal are magnesium based, so why not buy pure magnesium oxide online - it's cheap and it will make no difference if he has no imbalance.
My WB was very aggressive and rude - he has bitten me many times and if I would dare to smack him back I got it 100% worse back. He double barrelled and broke a groom's arm in 3 places. It transpired he was in immense pain - horses are not naturally aggressive to people. Mine is no longer aggressive now, but can be rude with forgotten respect for my space. NH methods consistently used on the ground easily sort that out and I only need to be firm and fair. Oberon knows so much about feeding - I really recommend you look at some of her posts and feeding suggestions. A naturally 'hot' horse seriously needs a forage diet and you wouldn't believe the difference diet can make to temperament. Good luck!

 

[Herts05]

I have a fabulous PRE. He was gelded late and is still very stallion like. I've not followed your other threads, so apologies but here goes:

My boy is really hot but all he gets is 1/2 scoop of Good Doer per feed. Other than grass when in the field and hay that's all he gets. Would suggest you cut down his feed if you haven't already done so.

Treats - DON"T feed by hand. If you must give them then feed from the stable floor. Make sure that others on your yard know that he's not to be fed treats - put a note up on his door

Work - how much work are you giving him? This breed need to work their body and their brain regularly. I know I can't get away with just lunging mine, he seriously thinks I'm short changing him. Regular hacking, and jumping in addition to good schooling is necessary to keep them sane and sensible. You may never truly tire him out but you want him to go back to the stable after his work looking contented.

Trainer - not sure where you are but there are some great UK based trainers who have experience of handling Iberians and many have trained in Spain/Portugal. If you want to PM me I can give you some suggestions based on personal experience.

It does sound like your boy is testing you, handle him like a Stallion and establish the ground rules then stick to them. He has to know that you are the boss - every day.

 

[noblesteed]

Yep Tally ho is quite right! BAPSH are very helpful and helped me in the past.

I am not afraid to say, if mine does ever attempt to nip me (VERY rarely but he can be mouthy) he gets a sharp smack in the face! Likewise if he raises a hind leg (he has done this when having a bath) he also gets a wallop. Simple. He respects that. I also use a 'sharp thumb' to move him over if he doesn't move when asked verbally. As a result he absolutely lovely for me, and anyone else who is firm with him. However he can spot a 'fluffy' person a mile off and exploit them to kingdom come - I often have to apologise for him headbutting, toe squashing (he does this on purpose), barging...

Is you have run out of calmer, then cut his feed back to soaked hay til you get some more!

Have you tried watching your Spanish horse in the field with his mates? It will give you a really good insight into his personality. Mine is hilarious, though very worrying sometimes. He is basically a complete wind-up merchant and you can see him taunting the others to get them to chase him - they put up with so much and then he gets a good beating! As a result he is covered in little scars and his rugs are regularly torn. HOWEVER does it stop him doing it? NO!!!!!! Conclusion - he is an arrogant cheeky disrespectful thug who feels no pain!

So I feel NO guilt whatsoever in giving him a wallop as well! He would happily trample all over me/splatter me all over a wall if he got the opportunity to - and has done in the past - the difference is I DON'T let him. I suppose if he reared up and lashed out at me I would probably get mad, stick his bridle on, drag him out of his stable regardless of the weather or what the other horses are doing and lunge him til he is ready to drop. I have done this when he has bucked me off in the past and hurt me and it worked very well. You have to think 'what would his field mates do?' - I guess if he reared up at them they would chase him away - you need to think of how you can do the same, so maybe that's why the lunging might work...

As an aside, have you read 'Horses Never Lie' by Mark Rashid? REALLY helped me!

 

[traceyann]

I have been down the expert route and the vet route they all say he dangerous and have wrote letters stateing the fact as he has so many fear issues. Since he came back from the vets apart from once hes been excellent not put a foot wrong then all of a sudden hes exploding again I dont normally smack him because he comes back at you with his front feet and teeth and means it I started feeding him simple system and hes been good on it as he can have no sugar what so ever. Im so disappointed as i really thought we was over the worst and could move forward with him I even decided to do dressage with this year. But im worried he could attack someone at the showground. Just so dissappointed with him.

 

[SaharaS]

Sorry to cut in with no direct experience of Spanish horses, but having read thru, I have a small suggestion. Others have suggested a trainer etc and feed, some mention pain. I have recently become interested in Zoopharmacognosy which is a natural approach to be used in conjunction with but not in replacement of vets. You are using a calmer-to those who were cross with OP, I have previously been let down before by suppliers and it may be the Season & weather/post to blame as much as her not ordering, so OP, set a phone reminder to alert you 2 weeks minimum before next calmer is needed in order to prevent it happening again...I use feedmark.com who do many different supplements & they do free next day delivery-products are excellent...but in addition to assistance on the ground, I would strongly recommend you contact Caroline Ingraham or another zoopharmacognisist in your area if you can't get her. The principle is allowing the horses to self medicate-we already know they cannot always tell us what is wrong...and many of us feed herbs...it would be easy to think we are doing our best for them(calmers included) but if he is unhappy physically or mentally, zoopharmacognosy allows the horse to select the oils/herbs HE needs to make him better/happy. If we randomly feed a miture, we can actually do more harm than good & unbalance the horses natural well being by feedign the wrong herbs. My friend is a student zoopharmacognosist tho is fully insured 7 trains under caroline ingraham, if funds are tight, pm me & I can put you in touch.Look it up, you will not regret it.Best of luck

 

[coen]

Don't beat yourself up for running out of calmer, that isn't going to fix his behaviour anyway, but by all means continue using if it helps.
I would have him turned out as much a possible during the day to help him chill, cut out his feed, up his exercise.
And make sure you smack him whenever he attempts to bite you, you don't have to beat the horse up but being too nice will only make him worse. He certainly isn't worried about hurting you.
Definitely get some help and do lots of ground work with him.
Best of luck I am sure you will get through it

 

[coen]

Sorry just seen your latest reply, in that case don't focus too much on this one negative experience, if what you have been doing has been working then just continue with it. Think of it as a minor set back.

 

[rockysmum]

Am I remembering correctly, is this the horse you were considering having PTS as he was so dangerous. The last I read he had attacked someone at the vets?

If so I know you have tried absolutely everything from reading previous posts. Even if he is good on calmers I dont think you should risk taking him out in public.

There are always lots of people and children at any event, it would be irresponsible to risk their safety.

You could also end up being sued if anyone is hurt, he has a proven history of this behaviour, it could be considered negligence on your part.

I have said previously I think he should be PTS before he kills or seriously injures someone, and I would normal be saying give a horse a chance.

 

[TigerTail]

When i said turn him out, i didnt mean turn him out and ignore him I mean make sure he is getting enough turn out and interaction with other horses to satisfy some of his need to play and occupy his brain a bit.

OP you need to get a professional in to help you and I really cannot recommend anyone higher than RA's.

Where abouts are you in the country?

 

[YasandCrystal]

Sorry to cut in with no direct experience of Spanish horses, but having read thru, I have a small suggestion. Others have suggested a trainer etc and feed, some mention pain. I have recently become interested in Zoopharmacognosy which is a natural approach to be used in conjunction with but not in replacement of vets. You are using a calmer-to those who were cross with OP, I have previously been let down before by suppliers and it may be the Season & weather/post to blame as much as her not ordering, so OP, set a phone reminder to alert you 2 weeks minimum before next calmer is needed in order to prevent it happening again...I use feedmark.com who do many different supplements & they do free next day delivery-products are excellent...but in addition to assistance on the ground, I would strongly recommend you contact Caroline Ingraham or another zoopharmacognisist in your area if you can't get her. The principle is allowing the horses to self medicate-we already know they cannot always tell us what is wrong...and many of us feed herbs...it would be easy to think we are doing our best for them(calmers included) but if he is unhappy physically or mentally, zoopharmacognosy allows the horse to select the oils/herbs HE needs to make him better/happy. If we randomly feed a miture, we can actually do more harm than good & unbalance the horses natural well being by feedign the wrong herbs. My friend is a student zoopharmacognosist tho is fully insured 7 trains under caroline ingraham, if funds are tight, pm me & I can put you in touch.Look it up, you will not regret it.Best of luck

^^ good suggestions. You can also try aromatherapy - my WB had various rags tied in his stable with anxiety releasing oils like lavender, rose and neroli, camomile and he self medicted. Caroline Ingraham has written an eye witness booklet on aromatherapy in horses. Worth a go. I used everything I could as fear aggression is the most dangerous and unpredictable - my advice is don't ever hit him as you will just reinforce that you are something to be fearful of. That is NOT being fluffy - anyone who has not encountered a fear aggressive horse does not understand how they think and reason.

 

[LaurenBay]

Have you got a trainer out yet to look at him? This may sound harsh, but I really do think you need one, as you don't sound like your very experienced and he could seriously hurt you soon! Please get a trainer out to him. The sooner the better.

 

[traceyann]

So far 7 trainers and five vets all came to the same conclusion dangerous because he is scared of everything iv had far more experienced people handle him than me properly trained and even had some of them working together with him hes worse as he has no trust of them and how often do you keep putting people lifes at risk He was doing so well i dont know what has triggered the last lot of problems. If im honest im not sure he does. I will start from beginning again. He not the type just to keep sending away its taken him a year to trust me to a point.

 

[Goldenstar]

traceyann I am so sorry to hear this I hoped you had got though the worse.
please be careful It's a horse it's not worth anyone health please don't get your self hurt you have been lucky so far . having a horse is supposed to be fun not all this heart ache sadly you can not turn the clock back for all of them no one could have tried harded I will be thinking of you please pm me if you wish to as I have been where you are now. Lots of hugs.

 

[littlescallywag]

((((Hugs))))
I second the zoopharmacognosy suggestion , he might surprise you with what he chooses.

 

[Brandy]

Look at it as a set back - everyone has them especially where horses are involved! Its normal! Not so long ago he was on his last chance and pretty much booked to be PTS, so it sounds as though he has come a long way. Get the calmer into him again as it seems it was helping, and carry on as you were. At least you now know he is capable of good behaviour, and the fact that he didn't savage you when you told him off speaks volumes.

Good luck.

 

[Pedantic]

Blimey, a swear word and racist title, careful, the offendrgasmers are out in force, you will get a smacked botty

 

[Milanesa]

Such a sad story, tracyann you have tried everything for him by the other posts etc, it is ultimately down to u to decide if you can carry in with him and hope for more improvement. It sounds like he has been better and improved, but it is ultimately his mental state that is the problem and what sort of a past you are trying to help him get over. The problem is whether he ever will, how long have a had him ??