Blumin' eventing claims another horse, poor thing.

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and training for this phase is now a thing of the past but i know Yogi is a great believer in getting his prodigies to school for racehorse trainers.

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Maybe something alot more people should think about!!!
I've ridden full time in racing yards for 10+ years now, so have ridden alot of racehorses.. up the gallops i can ride anything!!
However not many yards will let you school (over fences), so i've only schooled about 10 times in those 10 years..
Having ridden to 2* level, i'd say i still have ALOT to learn about schooling a racehorse peoperly over a fence!!
(in my defence, i was riding far too short
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under the beliefe that that was how the jockeys did it, i rode alot better when i put my irons down a few holes
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by short i mean knees on the withers )
 
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and training for this phase is now a thing of the past but i know Yogi is a great believer in getting his prodigies to school for racehorse trainers.

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Lars hammers this home too, but then they are kind of both singing from the same hymn sheet!

We mostly have Flat trainers round here, and I am on the tall and heavy side to be riding out for flat trainers but will definitely try to sort out something, even if it's taking pointers to the gallops, for this winter.
 
I'm not really an expert but I do think the numbers of non-Thoroughbred horses moving up to the top levels of eventing probably has something to do with it. My own experience of TBs is that they tire less easily and are by and large very quick thinking beasties, who will help you out of trouble without having to be asked for it, which is what you need for eventing. They often do not have the movement of the warmblood horses for the dressage, it's true, but they do have the staying power and are able to make the times necessary at the upper levels. IMHO the average warmblood would struggle to make the time at 3/4 star level and be more tired, physically and mentally, than the average TB and that would increase the likelihood of a bad fall. My friend's KWPN mare doesn't really gallop and has had to be taught and they looked a bit at sea at the Weston Park **. I thought it was interesting that of the British Olympic horses, the one that looked like it had the most staying power over the full 3 days was Miners Frolic, a very classy full TB. And lo and behold, he won the bronze!
 
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as it happens claire horse can jump A LITTLE naturally in the same way that cats CAN swim but horses are not built for this as their primary function. they are supposed to outrun predators in the first place!! if you look at the relative heights that can be jumped by cats and dogs and deer in comparison you will see what i mean.
apparently it is something to do with the anles of the hips and femurs and their distance from the ribs ie dogs and cats have long 'loins' which is considered a weakness in a horse.
someone who has done more anatomy than me is going to come on here and explain it better. But it is a test of our training methods and the horses willingness to follow them that makes the sport isnt it, not wheterh they ar natural jumpers or not.

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Yes, in the wild, horses go around obstacles rather than jumping them. They are flight animals and will try to outrun predators. They do not willingly put themselves in unnecessary danger - they cannot know what is the other side of the jump - and jumping also requires more energy than running. So, jumping is not a natural thing for wild horses, but our domesticated versions prove more than capable! And after hundreds, nay thousands of years of domestication, breeding and selection, we have equine athletes that enjoy doing it.
 
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Yes, of course at the lower levels any amount of schooling is going to help no end
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.... but at 3*/4* the level of submission is huge!!
A good XC horse should be able to think for itself in a split second.
A good dressage horse should totally submit to its rider..
A contradiction don't you think.

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Which is why when you have a xc clinic with Lucinda Green, she gets people jumping ditches out of a walk on a slightly loose rein so that the horse has to think for itself, rather than go "mum what do I do now?"

I was always told that one of the most needed and best qualities you could ask for in an event horse is one that can think for itself instantly as it's the one thing you can't train them to do. If it doesn't bend round corners, then that can be worked on and sorted. You can't train them to use their 5th leg or get you out of sticky situations...

I loathe jumping horses that trip over their own feet on the flat as it's a subconcious *well if you don't know how to sort yourself out now, what are you going to be like if I put you on a dodgy stride by over/under riding*?
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I will never forget witnessing a turned out pony suddenly deciding to jump the field fence for no reason I could see, catching a hind leg, somersaulting and breaking its neck. It has always made me think that us asking horses to jump is nothing they won't do themselves. We had several ponies and horses at the yard that regularly jumped field fences/ gates. The one that died did so on its first attempt.

The cost of keeping horses in eventing and racing mean that if they don't want to perform and don't enjoy it they are not there long. I know in racing the weekly livery bill of (low end yard) £180 before shoeing, vets, entry fees etc is rather a lot of money to waste.

You can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink - same with jumping.

I also know race horses that love the game so much there owners are worried about retiring them - if they fall in a race they carry on including jumping the fences - it is what they are bred for and in their blood.

I wonder if one of the other reasons there are more problems cross country is due to the change in the horses you see competing. At one time nearly all of them had a high % of thoroughbred blood in them if not pure. These were the horses bred to go cross country quickly - don't forget we have now lost the steeplechase in 4*s - I suppose the increasing need for higher dressage marks may be a reason why there is more and more of the heavier warmbloods appearing as that is their speciality along with the show jumping.
 
Just for interests sake, as we did this list for a related discussion, percentage of TB blood in the top ten horses at the last Olympics:

Marius is more than 1/2 T'bred.
Mr. Medicott is 3/8 T'bred
Butts Leon is 7/8 T'bred
Abraxxas is 7/8 T'bred
Ringwould Jaguar is 1/2 T'bred
Ben Along Time is 3/8 T'bred
Tankers Town is 1/2 T'bred
Parkmore Ed is 1/4 T'bred
Miners Frolic is a T'bred
Mckinaigh is 1/2 T'bred

Of course this is not a complete list but if you look further it's fairly clear there are very few horses near the top of the rankings without a hefty percentage of TB blood in them. And, to make it pertinent, that unfortunate horse that started this thread certainly had no shortage of TB blood.

What is interesting as well as the TB blood in the German bred horses (3 in the top 4) is from horses approved for warmblood breeding, not random racing "cast offs".

But how much does that differ from the percentages in the past?? It would be hard to get accurate statistics for all sorts of reasons but when you think back to Priceless, Night Cap, Murphy Himself, The Irishman, many of the Welton Horses etc etc. while they had a high percentage of TB blood - usually in the 1/2 to 7/8 range - there were lots that weren't pure TB.

By the way, I DON'T think they type of horses increasingly found in eventing now is completely immaterial to the subject BUT I don't think it's as easy as numbers on a page or gross generalisations about breeds. If we're using horses that can't cope with the task then surely we have to look at the individuals? But then people often don't seem to want to do that because then they would have to accept that successful results, especially at the lower levels, may have very little bearing on judging a horse's suitability or safety to continue. It would also mean, of course, that people might have to accept that certain horses have limitations, no matter how many ribbons it may win when the stakes aren't as high. which is not a socially acceptable position these days. (Not even touching that good riding can only make up for so much and that poor riding/judgement might be a contributory factor in some cases but not always in the obvious ways . . .)
 
Just a snippet from what I found in scientific literature whilst doing my disseration...

...the cross-country phase of eventing poses a huge risk to horse and rider. Murray et al (2006) studied the situations which enhanced the risk of a fall in the cross-country phase, he found that an increased risk of a horse fall was associated with jumping into or out of water; taking off from good-to-soft, soft or heavy ground; fences with a drop landing; non-angled fences with a spread wider than 2 metres. Other risk factors were associated with when the rider knew they were in the lead, riders who had received cross-country tuition and riders who approached the fence too fast or too slowly. From these falls 1 in 3 of the horses that fell incurred an injury and 1 in 100 horse falls resulted in a fatality.

I am a believer in the horse can lose its 5th leg and the ability to think for itself the more they are trained, in the early days of eventing the majority of riders weren't as stylish it was a gungho attitude leaving the horse to jump the fence and the rider to navigate where the next fence is, there is too much emphasis on looking pretty over a fence.
 
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I was always told that one of the most needed and best qualities you could ask for in an event horse is one that can think for itself instantly as it's the one thing you can't train them to do. If it doesn't bend round corners, then that can be worked on and sorted. You can't train them to use their 5th leg or get you out of sticky situations...

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I think you can train them in this. there are lots of ways, and Lucinda teaches some of them.
fwiw i've had a wb x tb who, i believe, was just as quick-thinking as the irish x tbs that i have favoured in the past for eventing. he also had an amazing amount of scope and athleticism to get us out of jail if it was ever necessary.

i am a bit shocked by that statistic, that 1 in 100 horse falls results in a fatality.
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it is interesting that those who have had xc instruction, according to that study, are in the more "at risk" category. what a nightmare! there is a lot to be said for a lot of practise to get the feel for how to do it. it isn't a case of learning how to ride specific fences as if from a manual, it's very much about feel imho.
 
very interesting sarah but it seems to me that the study of murray et all only really established that any horse could fall because the list of factors that apparently increased risk was so long. however it is an interesting study but i do not think in any way conclusive.
and tarr, that data is also interesting. how would your figuures differ if you included trakeners as 'blood' horses? because though classed as warmbloods they are almost entirely descended from lightweight barbs, arabs and TB crosses used by the cavalry in Prussia, unlike most warm bloods whose descent was from draft stock, selectively bred to be lighter and with flashier movement to look better in carriages and provide more speed to that sort of conveyance. Hence very good fronts and plenty 'toe flick' but often prone to 'straight' hind limbs and the associated problems because carriage horse pull from the front and a good hind leg not so essential.
 
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I think you can train them in this. there are lots of ways, and Lucinda teaches some of them.

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As does Jimmy Woffard. There's lots of noise made about how horses and riders don't necessarily hunt anymore and that's one of the problems but in the absence of that "real world" training - and attrition - there are other ways to help horses develop the necessary skills. Maybe, relatively speaking, eventers at the lower levels don't jump enough now?

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i am a bit shocked by that statistic, that 1 in 100 horse falls results in a fatality.
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About the same for NH horses, isn't it? Pretty grim. But I wonder if the percentage has actually changed from the "good old days" given how many more horses event now.

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it is interesting that those who have had xc instruction, according to that study, are in the more "at risk" category. what a nightmare! there is a lot to be said for a lot of practise to get the feel for how to do it. it isn't a case of learning how to ride specific fences as if from a manual, it's very much about feel imho.

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Those statistic again.
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It still doesn't say why that result is produced. Maybe people who don't get training go without because they've grown up hunting or ridden since birth and don't consider that "instruction" in the technical sense? Maybe a little knowledge is a dangerous thing and if more people got more help the numbers would change? Maybe a little experience means that a horse would go, however badly, when the same horse with no experience would stop? Not the same as jumping safely? Maybe people with less training fall off six fences before the horse might fall? There's no way of really saying because there is no accurate control. It would be interesting to know how a horse and rider with no prior xc instruction OR experience would fair going straight in at, say, Novice against a properly prepared rider.

Sorry, that looks like I'm arguing, which I'm totally not. Just expanding on the points.

As to counting in Trakehners, I would say they're "blood" horses and have certainly been bred for centuries now to go cross country. As a group they tend to be good with their front ends jumping form wise and inclined to look after themselves, which one could say are desirable xc horse traits. They certainly don't traditionally jump like some of the Dutch and German lines do. But then again Darren got schmucked by one . . . but then again, it had other issues . . .
 
My hubby was at a Novice comp when Zara and Tsunami were there and she was beautifully behaved and schooled even as a baby (that's horse and rider)!
I can see everyones point on here and I think the fact is that most horses enjoy their job most of the time but mistakes happen - I'm perfectly capable of walking down my field and ducking under the fence everyday, so why today did I whack my head?!?
This is not a funny subject and I'm not trying to take away from the seriousness of it but why does everything have to analysed and someone be to blame? Sometimes things just happen and no one would leave their house if they thought 'what if?' all the time.
Just my opinion ...
 
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