Bobby Roberts' Circus

bwpre said:
Not at all, i'm saying, don't make a vendetta out of something you don't understand. FYI elephants don't think like people! she wont think oh thank god you came and rescued me, she will see everything she has ever known and then she will see something completely alien to her "which is scary''!

also whilst on the point, people seem to have absolutely no apprehension when smacking there horse on the nose or using a whip on the flanks (Personally i never under any circumstances use any force whatsoever! JSYK), An elephants skin is an inch thick so an ankus has the same level of severity as your index finger on your horses nose, if i came into your yard and said you have been cruel to your horse for the last 50 years you would probably find it hard to accept that.

My most blunt point is that if you yourself have never come into contact with an elephant it afflict me that you feel you are apt to debate the topic!
yes you saw a video! this elephants life is 50 years long! how long was the video!
Dont get me wrong i think any amount of cruelty is awful and must be stopped, but taring with your brush would have me boxing up and 'rescuing' a lot of horses!
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I think there is a bit of difference between a mahout controlling an elephant for the safety of everyone, and what goes on behind the scenes in some circuses/other establishments.

When I first came across elephant handling I was 7 and thought it "cruel", although I was quickly educated. I loved watching the mahouts with their elephants, how one tiny man can control such a large animal was beyond me. :) However, I was appalled by what I saw happening to this specific elephant (Anne) and it went beyond reasonable force IMO.

Elephants (asian, don't fancy those peoples chances with an African elepgant! :o ) have always reminded me a bit of horses in the way they will work with humans, and put up with the rubbish we throw at them, but there are limits.
 
As a bit of an aside but I think of interest to the discussion is at what point does an animal become domesticated instead of wild?

Elephants have been utilised for a very long time, a quick google search suggest their use 4000 years ago. But that they are generally still taken from the wild because of the economic issues of breeding in captivity.
 
Well, I apologise Skewby if i have "chuffed you off". My point was that people see a video clip of such things - and I am in no way condoning any animal being hit or abused in any way - but come people then feel it is their right to threaten other people's lives. I don't agree with that and in my mind makes them no better than the abuser themselves. Also I think Bobby and his wife/partner at least faced up to what had happened to some degree. They didn't have to I am sure.

No, i don't think circuses these days should have animals in but 50 years ago it was the norm. I sincerely hope Anne can have some comfortable years of retirement ahead and I am sure the staff at longleat will do their best to make the transition as easy as possible as i would be concerned the major change could cause her a lot of stress.

At every horse competition i go to i see 'cruelty' when people belt their horses with whips, smack them across the faces etc etc. Plus, many top level competition horses are kept in a 12 x 12 'prison' for the majority of their lives, only to be taken out and to be forced to work and strain in unnatural positions in the name of elegance. they are also fed high energy feeds but then doped as they are deemed too hot to handle otherwise.

Is that treatment any less cruel?

My point is, although i do not disagree that the abuse this elephant suffered was horrible and maybe we only saw a small part of it - what would we see if these same animal rights people put cameras up and secretly filmed horse yards instead. There are low lifes everywhere who abuse animals, not just in cicuses
 
ladyt25 said:
Well, I apologise Skewby if i have "chuffed you off". My point was that people see a video clip of such things - and I am in no way condoning any animal being hit or abused in any way - but come people then feel it is their right to threaten other people's lives. I don't agree with that and in my mind makes them no better than the abuser themselves.
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Yes absolutely, but as you say, this was SOME people. A minority, and at the end of the day, a result of Bobby Roberts' actions. No, not right, and shouldn't remove focus from what actually happened. But I don't have an awful lot of sympathy either really.

ladyt25 said:
Also I think Bobby and his wife/partner at least faced up to what had happened to some degree. They didn't have to I am sure.
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Yes they did! They were going to be prosecuted otherwise. In some ways although it's wonderful Anne has been rehomed, I am concerned it lets the circus off the hook now, and what about all the other animals there, who were seen being abused in the footage too?

ladyt25 said:
My point is, although i do not disagree that the abuse this elephant suffered was horrible and maybe we only saw a small part of it - what would we see if these same animal rights people put cameras up and secretly filmed horse yards instead. There are low lifes everywhere who abuse animals, not just in cicuses
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Who said it was just circuses? Again, I don't really get your point. Does the fact that cruelty is everywhere make it ok? None of it is ok. One animal has been freed from it, that's terrific. That's all anyone is saying.
 
Thankfully Anne is on her way (probably there by now) to a new home which she totally deserves.
Its pitiful to watch the footage on her being beaten I just wonder what has happened to the cretin that was supposidly looking after her?? why get a job working with animals if you dont really like them. He's probably fled back to his country of origin and disappeared.
But then this isnt the first circus to abuse animals, Chipperfields were done for cruelty with their chimps ending up at Monkey World.
 
Check out the pictures of Anne enjoying her new surroundings in the Mail today. I think it goes to show it was all worthwhile giving her a new start in life.
 
Well lets hope that the animal rights activists dont target livery yards/riding schools/competition centres........because the ONLY reason the circus's are being slated is that these activists target them, agreed its not right to beat an animal for no reason, but there are ways of dealing with serious issues the same as there are for child abuse for example, they dont NEED to put it on youtube..... so all of you so quick to criticise circuses per se (sic) as my opening comment, dont smack your horse, hit it with that nice sparkly whip, kick it, tell it off, shout at it because there just might be someone with a hidden camera watching!!!
 
viewfromahill said:
Well lets hope that the animal rights activists dont target livery yards/riding schools/competition centres........because the ONLY reason the circus's are being slated is that these activists target them, agreed its not right to beat an animal for no reason, but there are ways of dealing with serious issues the same as there are for child abuse for example, they dont NEED to put it on youtube..... so all of you so quick to criticise circuses per se (sic) as my opening comment, dont smack your horse, hit it with that nice sparkly whip, kick it, tell it off, shout at it because there just might be someone with a hidden camera watching!!!
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If they didn't post the videos then ordinary Joe public wouldn't know what horrendus abuse goes on would they?! I'm not an animal rights activist, but I have studied into and researched circus animals, and it makes my blood boil! I also don't agree with violence towards animals full stop, not just in circuses. There is a huge number of people now who want animals in circuses banned, they probably would be none the wiser if these horrific videos weren't posted, so I for one am glad they post them! It is evidence!

You're right, you never know who is watching so treat animals with respect they deserve.

Also do you not think there are people who target child abusers! More so than circus animal abusers! There will always be some people who target those who abuse.
 
viewfromahill said:
Well lets hope that the animal rights activists dont target livery yards/riding schools/competition centres........because the ONLY reason the circus's are being slated is that these activists target them, agreed its not right to beat an animal for no reason, but there are ways of dealing with serious issues the same as there are for child abuse for example, they dont NEED to put it on youtube..... so all of you so quick to criticise circuses per se (sic) as my opening comment, dont smack your horse, hit it with that nice sparkly whip, kick it, tell it off, shout at it because there just might be someone with a hidden camera watching!!!
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Indeed you have a point there,even the most innocent action could be made to appear terrible by these people. Bobby Roberts had NO IDEA that the worker was abusing Anne,the guilty party has scarpered.Speak as I have found ,circus people put most of us to shame with their animal care,and cannot be blamed for a casual workers acts.
Anne ,however looks to be enjoying her new life,albeit still roped fore and aft for hosing down,so some things have`nt changed.
 
How do you know he had no idea? Because he say's so?

The amount of abuse videos I have watched and you tell me that all circus people love animals! I think not.

Anne has to be tied with the ropes as she could be unpredictable due to years if abuse by circus abuse freaks. Hardly the same as the chains spent her days in.

Defend him all you like, but the evidence is there!! for ALL to see. End of.

BOYCOTT CIRCUSES WITH ANIMALS!!!!
 
Not to mention those who have worked in animal circuses and who have left because of the abuse, I guess they are lying?
 
EAST KENT said:
And how many circus people do you personally know??
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Thankfully none. BUT I have read articles written by ex circus workers and I have SEEN! the undercover footage of many many different circuses abusing their animals. Ok I can't say all do, but from what I have SEEN many do.


Defend them all you like, I will have to agree to disagree, and continue to show the footage to those who can see for themselves what goes on, and not take the word of a circus worker who is extremely unlikely to admit what goes on. UNTIL they are caught out.

Agree to disagree I think.

ACtually I know one circus worker who did juggling in our shop. But he said he wouldn't work in a circus with animals. Only in a circus with people, which I think in this day and age is all we need.
 
I didn't see the Roberts on The One Show, did Matt Baker ask them how did they sleep at night?

After seeing that video of the abuse of Anne, I certainly couldn't sleep.

The Romanian who dealt out the daily punishment deserves a similar fate but he will probably never be caught..he has to meet his maker one day though.

The Roberts were ultimately responsible for the welfare of their animals, they failed Anne miserably.
 
I have to side with Eastkent on this, people are talking as if they know these people first hand. Funny how attitudes towards people and the reports in papers like the dailymail differ depending where on this forum you read! One min they cant report facts right and talk shi*te when talking about 'country sports' and issues, next min theyve got every thing right and we should all be leading a mob to Mr Roberts door.
I for one cant stand cruelty to animals in any form i find what happened to Anne utterly terrible however i also see horses locked away in a stable all day etc just as wrong however is a livery owner whos groom whacks a horse for no reason to be hounded the same? Im sure these things happen on a daily basis but ive not seen the outrage that has been shown for Anne.
Interesting isnt it that Anne is the oldest elephant in europe and also interesting that i was a Twycross zoo recently watching the keepers there treating one of their elephants who was also shackled in a pen.
 
Just to add, i dont always think that the word of ex workers are always proof of someones wrong doings, how many times have you heard of people with an axe to grind over an ex boss??
i do agree tho that Mr Rooberts has most likely failed Anne in his duty toward her. Glad now tho that she will hopefully be able to live out her days in peace and yes those that do abuse do one day have to meet their maker! No better justice in my view! :)
 
People have different opinions and that is fine. I will agree to disagree. No point in keep repeating myself.

I feel passionately about this subject. But that's not to say others don't too. I appreciate that.
 
I posted earlier that my first impressions of a circus had been that it looked down at heel - and that was through the eyes of a child - it was probably much worse. Here is the rub - people in low paid jobs are generally not the most inteligent - couple this with the fact that the path to a circus for many of them has probably had many ugly turns - you then have a recipe for turning out unfeeling, resentful people down in life's dumps - you ain't going to find many of them tree hugging or soul sharing with animals. I think the job actually attracts low life animal abusers rather than lovers and this type will always take the shortest cut to earning their crust and if that involves cruelty so what!

Now the top circus folk have cleaned up their act of late and put on Horsey extravaganza without other animals - better - but I wouldn't leave many of them in charge of a dead cat.
 
EAST KENT said:
Indeed you have a point there,even the most innocent action could be made to appear terrible by these people. Bobby Roberts had NO IDEA that the worker was abusing Anne,the guilty party has scarpered.Speak as I have found ,circus people put most of us to shame with their animal care,and cannot be blamed for a casual workers acts.
Anne ,however looks to be enjoying her new life,albeit still roped fore and aft for hosing down,so some things have`nt changed.
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Absolute garbage! This video clearly shows that the piece of scum knew all about the abuse!!

Thank goodness Anne's in a better place. It's a shame the same can't be said about the rest of the animals.
 
Sorry but i find your reply utter crap 1stclassalan, i have personel first hand knowledge of many traveling circus/ showmen and the people i have met have mostly had higher moral standings than many of the 'normal' folk i grew up with. Yes there are good and bad in every walk of life but i also know many people who have shunned a normal life to travel the world in a low paid job for the love of what they do and their animals and children are better cared for than most i have met else where, at the end of the day their lively hoods depend on them. Scum who abuse dont have to just come from a hard lifestyle!
There will always be the bad in every walk of life but we should all be careful of taring people with the same brush, and target the abusers not the people around them.

Sarahsum1 i get what you are saying i too believe in things but hate to see groups of people being tarred because of a few peoples actions. Im not disagreeing with everything you have said but on some points yes i think we will have to disagree....on this one! :)
 
I watched the interview with Mr and Mrs Roberts on the One Show and one thing Mr Roberts said didnt sit well with me, it was something along these lines

"All we were trying to do was entertain the public, whats so wrong with that?"

I feel in todays society we are now more in touch with the fact exotic animals are not put on this earth to entertain humans, times have changed and animals natural behaviour is more important to us.

I say lets leave human to entertain human, it can be done so why bring in exotic animals who clearly were not designed to soley 'make us laugh'.
 
But then ..what about horses?They evolved to wander 24 hours grazing etc ..and for our amusement,and other`s entertainment, we coup them up 23 hours a day ,make them do ridiculous dressage for a half hour or so ..and then coup them up again.Is that right?
Humans use animals ,fact,circus animals have to be kept looking good,that is good business. If you want to see a circus family born trainer watch Tanya Larrigan,her horses and her parents horses want for nothing,they used to work for Chipperfields. They came out of circus to allow their daughter a settled education..oh and to home one of Marion`s High School stallions,which sadly they never traced.
Never met anyone who has concentrated on keeping horses comfortable and in great form as much as that family.I do not believe they are that exceptional among circus folk.
Do not judge them all on ONE casual worker.And next time you say "get over" and smack your horse on it`s bottom..think how that could be construed on film.
 
It's not just one though, there are several undercover videos of circus animal abuse.

Please don't think it's an isolated case, I could put up another ten or more undercover footage videos like it, all in different circuses (ones in this country too, Great british circus, ringling brothers etc) but I know you won't watch them.

Anyway, as previously said I agree to disagree. I appreciate other people may have different opinions.

ETA Chipperfields had abused monkeys in their care which were taken to a monkey sanctuary.
 
ladyt25 said:
I am not saying that it is right for aan elephant to be in a circus. I didn't see the horses being abused, I didn't see the conditions they were kept in
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So why don't you watch the freely available video showing it all clearly, that started all this off?

Or did you just watch the The One Show episode?

Would you like a link?
 
1stclassalan said:
That was as I said a very different era but the Spanish Riding School Vienna still trains Lippanzannas to capriole by some extremely doubious methods involving the animal being severely constricted between strudy fixtures. Is this O.K. because it's done in more salubrious surroundings?
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I am terribly shocked at this claim, have read up a lot on the Spanish Riding School and have tickets to see them this winter. If this is true I definitely need to know more details?

And it's Lipizzaner, would never normally pick up on spelling but as you are making such a big accusation, I expected you to get the spelling right. If you've really looked into something, and know fundamental facts about it, it would be so familiar to you, that its correct spelling would come naturally.
 
Sarah sum1 said:
Please don't think it's an isolated case, I could put up another ten or more undercover footage videos like it, all in different circuses (ones in this country too, Great british circus, ringling brothers etc) but I know you won't watch them.
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Why wouldn't we watch them?
 
skewby said:
Why wouldn't we watch them?
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Ok

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bta6UxBX6xM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2KE...ry=ringling+brother+abuse&aq=f&has_verified=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4NNiWbfB38

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-xwKJgL534

Ok a few there, but all you need to do is google circus cruelty etc and it's all there.

ETA Just a few off you tube, but if you google you will fond more. This is the last time i'm posting on this thread as it's getting me down. This and my dad is not putting my head in a good place. I repsect others opinions and all I can say is research into it a bit. I appreciate that I can;t say all circuses treat their animals in that way, But the evidence I have seen is enough to think they should be banned.

Over and out :)
 
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how sad those videos were ( but not seen bobby roberts ones but have been stables with his brothers horses the palominos for a few month over winter while they were doing a theatre and i can 100 per cent vouch those palomoinos were treated like gods waited on hand and foot and watched over like precious jewels immaculate fed groomed and watered and loved happy horses i used to walk past one and he used to kiss your ear or grab your coat gently of his own accord they kept there part of the yard spick and span i dropped a top off a pen one day and was handed it back the next lol did i feel bad !I was shocked by high standard of care i was nt expecting it but was impressed my horse learnt to bow with no aids or physical just a carrot and kindness from them i never jeard a raised voice once only to staff now and again
 
Ive read through this thread and the thing that confuses me is why some ppl are not making the distinguishion between domesticated animals and exotic animals.

For those who are comparing keeping an elephant/tiger to a horse/dog please remember these type of animals are very different, its been proven that domesticated animals do well living under the care of humans however for animals such as elephants, bears and tigers (just 3 exotics ive used as example of what may be used in a circus) they thrive and live much better in their own habitat away from human.

Please note im not speaking about breeding plans or sanctuaries here, im speaking about using animals for pleasure of the human.
 
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