Body Cage Back Protectors and Rotational Falls

Fascinating thread - my only thoughts are: 1) I was riding at Windsor that year you launched them Alasdair, you jumped on me as well as famous people (it was your party trick, as I remember!) It was just a shell then, and I never really followed it up once they launched, don't know why, never seemed a priority, can't really explain it. But they have been increasingly in my mind recently with all that's been happening, and particularly now I have a daughter getting more serious about the sport.
2) There are a lot of rumours and misinformation on the circuit about them, I've no idea whether they are planted maliciously or just been allowed to take root and spread naturally. However, FWIW, I don't think anyone, WoofWear or whoever, have been particularly pro-active in counteracting them and spreading their version of the good news: sad that the first we hear (for me anyway) of a life being saved is at the same time as we hear of the company being under threat. I realise this is a good, big news PR story now but feel it is a case of "too little, too late"... (Who was in charge of your PR Alasdair? I hope you weren't paying them much
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I don't expect an answer to that, BTW)
3) If these things really are life-savers they need to be compulsory, end of. That would stop all the pros and cons arguments, weight etc, we'd all just have to get on with it, although fit is an issue (I also have a short back!) I assume the reason this hasn't happenend is all the vested interests which would lose out: BE not wanting to bite the hands that feed it in terms of sponsorship (Charles Owen, Champion/Toggi etc - big players!!), even more BETA politics: presumably rival manufacturers have been lobbying internally hard, people like KC Sports (Rodney Powell) also coming into play here? And that comes back to BE again because who sponsored was it the Int Champs at Gatcombe? Oh yes, BETA... So does the RDA holding the patent get over any of these problems of vested interests? Presumably, if they can grant licenses to more companies to produce the EXO protectors? Would love to know if any of these ramblings are close to the mark?
 
AutumnRose - we developed and owned the rights to the Exo, but licensed them to Woof Wear. The rights and licence are now owned by the RDA. I can't predict therefore what there plans will be, but both are good copmanies to be involved, so do talk to them and express your interest, I am sure that the more who express interest with those organisations, the more chance of things happening - but no longer in our control...

TableDancer, I couldn't possible comment on all your points
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say no more than it doesn't take too much effort to piece together who played what role, especially if you have followed some of the trade and other press over the last few years...

As I mentioned in my long and rambling post above, there will always be a challenge in commercial viability and desire to spread the technology, while I can't talk about how much Woof Wear have invested in bringing the product to market (not insubstantial), there isn't really the scope with this type of product to have a number of companies investing in its manufacture - the economics don't stack up if you have only a small share of the market. However I don't see an issue with only one manufacturer - as long as they don't abuse that position through charging silly prices (which they certainly don't!) then it is fair that the consumer pays a company to have their product - that money then allowing the company to do R&D to develop the product further... If one says that anyone should be able to manufacture it - the economics do not work...

We were told by various people 'in authority' that they would be happy to endorse the product / make it compulsory etc. if we released the rights and allowed anyone to make it... I am not quite sure how they thought we could afford the hundreds of thousands of R&D money! Perhaps they felt that we should pay for it out of the kindness of our hearts!

Plenty of other people out there making money out of products - so one has to look to why anyone might wish for us not to make money... the rest can be worked out...
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And as for jumping on famous people - Windsor was one of those places I was thinking of, there were many famous people I jumped on - consider yourself one of them
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Alasdair Kirk
Managing Director
Bodycage
 
This is an extremely interesting thread, well done SC for bringing it up.

Here are my own personal thoughts on the EXO...

I saw it at Badminton the year it was launched, took one look and told myself that it was far too bulky and would hinder my position and would be too heavy for me to carry around the xc course! I did not try it
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I'm not saying it's a bad idea here, I didn't give it much thought at the time.

After reading through the thread I do have some concerns about further neck damage, as we already have a Tetraplegic in the family (my brother) and paralysis is something that I am VERY aware of and would like to prevent at all costs. The way I see it, is the EXO sits a little too far away from the body or is bulked away from the body, so if you landed on your back, there would be room for the head to fall back at quite an angle, so if you sustained a neck injury it could be worsened by the fact that there is no support, whereas the normal body protector, in my case the Rodney Powell one, you may still incur a neck injury but as the body protector is a snugger fit, you would be more likely to have your head resting on the ground at not such an alarming angle, therefor the neck would be immobilised (Just my thoughts) But at the end of the day, this is a vital bit of kit, it CAN save lives. I personally think the design needs a bit of tweaking before I would wear one though.

I too think that if the EXO could be made of a lighter but sustainable material, competitors would definately buy them, I do think it comes down to weight, especially for the men.

And if everyone HAD to wear them, we would all look the same, so for those who are more worried about their image as opposed to their safety, well, they'd just look like everyone else
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[ QUOTE ]
After reading through the thread I do have some concerns about further neck damage, as we already have a Tetraplegic in the family (my brother) and paralysis is something that I am VERY aware of and would like to prevent at all costs. The way I see it, is the EXO sits a little too far away from the body or is bulked away from the body, so if you landed on your back, there would be room for the head to fall back at quite an angle, so if you sustained a neck injury it could be worsened by the fact that there is no support, whereas the normal body protector, in my case the Rodney Powell one, you may still incur a neck injury but as the body protector is a snugger fit, you would be more likely to have your head resting on the ground at not such an alarming angle, therefor the neck would be immobilised (Just my thoughts) But at the end of the day, this is a vital bit of kit, it CAN save lives. I personally think the design needs a bit of tweaking before I would wear one though.


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See I'm unconvinced about this - it only sits an inch or so away from the body - certainly no more than your skull does - so if you lie on the floor with a skull on and the BC on, I don't see how the neck can hyperextend/fall back at an angle? I am willing to be proven wrong, but I just can't visualise it.
 
"My reasons for not getting one are.
1) the fit, or lack of it.
2) due to the lack of fit, it will effect my ability to ride
3) weight
4) i know a very bad reason, but the cost. "

Just thought I would say...
1) & 2) I found it really comfortable, although different at the start I thought it was more comfortable than ordinary body protectors...also it didn't effect my ability to ride at all.
But perhaps this might differ from person to person, and obviously MdM you found it less comfortable.

3) The weight...yes it weighs more, but as a rider you dont feel it as it is designed to hang off your shoulders so the weight isnt felt very much. For the horse...like I say for bramham i used weights in training because of the length of the course and the endurance required. i didn't use weights for training for normal 1days though as the endurance phase is not as long and it i didnt seem to have that much of an effect on 1day's. it was the CCIs with the longer XC that needed greater preparation i found-and i also did fitness preparation and weight to prepare myself.

4) the cost...it is less than entering a 3day i guess!
but i see how that might intimidate people if they were not 100%sure about it.

it is interesting to here the reasons people dont get them
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Thanks to Alastair for addressing so many questions about the Exo. I've not worn one of them so am no expert but in answer to Spotted Cat's query about hyperextension:- the most dangerous fracture of the neck occurs just below the skull. The part of the brain that controls breathing is at that level of the spine therefore spinal damage above that level is invariably fatal. A lower fracture that compromises the spinal cord will result in paralysis. If you ever get the chance to look at a human skeleton (I have one under my bed, I kid you not) try tilting the skull back even a tiny tiny fraction and see how much the top 4 vertebrae move. Therefore any query spinal injury must be totally immobilised immediately and Xrayed to see if there is a fracture and if it is displaced (ie. has moved at all). The human head weighs about 3.5kg and the leverage exerted on the spine is enormous. A body protector that was 1-2 inches thicker than normal would by my estimate extend the head back by that much and that is easily enough to move a fractured vertebrae. If you try tipping your head back 1 inch, you'll feel how hard your neck muscles have to work to support that. That's why hyperextension, even a little, has to be avoided at all costs.


Alastair - I did wonder though whether you could add on an extra inch to the back of the rider's helmet to reduce this problem. I do see the obvious difficulty of putting neck protection on a body protector.
 
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Having read this thread and the answers to all the bad points I'm with you on this SpottedCat. I can't see how it can be any worse than a normal BP when you have a sculll cap on especially now the sculls are getting more supportive to the base of the neck!

I think BodyCage has pretty much answered this in his replies which have been very interesting!

I had a nasty fall many moons ago at Dauntsey.. in the SJ so no I didn't have BP on... but I landed and hit the base of my spine in the corner of a Well type jump stand. I was lucky it hit where the pelvis comes round to meet the spine and although I get low back pain now I was fortunately fine, I even managed to get back on and jump the offending jump... albeit a good 1/2 a stride too early as I was so determined on the 2nd attempt!

The Dr said if I had hit it a few inches higher I may well have bust my back or at least done some serious damage, but in view of that type of injury I am sure both a normal BP and BC would have the same protection but the BC has the added bonus of the protection from Rotational injury.

I would definitely consider one but I also would like them to be lighter in weight if at all possible as having tried on on like WizOz at Badminton when they were first released that was my main reason for not wanting one. Now I am a bit older and seen more injuries I think maybe i was a bit shortsighted!!
 
wizoz - I can totally understand your concerns - esp. if you already have a Tetraplegic in the family. Some thoughts:

when a rider falls (assume no protective gear), they rarely hit the ground square on (we tested with SATRA's dummy to check this), so legs / torso / head will hit first.

If your head hits first, you are likely to have issues anyway as the torso will act as a pendulum and stretch the neck.

If you land on your side you could have whiplash - and then the weight of your head or head & hat will be a defining factor

If you land on your feet less issues!

If you land on your torso, front or back first, then we are into the scenario you mention. for the Exo to cause issues here which are not present otherwise it would have to significantly increase the distance you head sat away from the ground to give more space for whiplash... now I am not going to say categorically that this will not happen - a) every accident is different b) every person's physique is different - but I will observe that i) no expert who looked at this (inc. spine / neck experts) raised this as a concern ii) no-one in testing the Exo (with my jumping on them they lie on their back in it with no helmet) has commented on their head being raised significantly from the ground iii) as SpottedCat mentions with a helmet on as well the difference is minimised...

Perhaps it is something to look at, but I would hope also that it is not a red-herring, and would encourage it to be looked at scientifically, not just on the basis of a feeling that it might happen - as mentioned, we have had some very impressive medics involved in the design and this has not been cause for concern...

eta:
Kit279 - see where you are coming from, but - if you are wearing no BP / no hat presumably head and torso are in balance? so adding the hat without a BP / shallow BP will give you an out of balance situation... a BP which matches the hat - should put you back in balance...

However bear in mind that larger helmets are more likely to cause whiplash through their extra weight in other scenarios, such as falling onto your side / extension of neck during flight through the air...

ultimately there is probably no ideal solution - other than not riding, and that would be boring )

regards

Alasdair Kirk
Managing Director
Bodycage
 
Thank you so much for posting, Alasdair, especially as I guess you must be trying to look forward and not back at the moment! I think it is a seriously great product and I sincerely wish that BE had made them compulsory for all - then the weight wouldn't bother me so much at all. I didn't realise that the weight difference was only 4lb, i would have guessed it as being about 8lb.

Re: "The Exo gave readings of 0 - i.e. no force transmitted through - when the impact was on the exo, and standard readings on the foam sections... - they thought that the machines were broken initially."

This did not surprise me at all. I have worn an Exo and had someone jumping up and down on my chest (was that you?!) with no weight transferred through at all. Other back protectors offer absolutely no crush protection, there is no way they can, anyone who thinks they do is kidding themselves!

I am hoping that RDA will push ahead with a carbonfibre one at the earliest opportunity, and will write to them about it.


The thought that the girl who died at Hartpury might still be with us if she had been wearing as Exo is haunting me at the moment.
 
Alasdair, thank you for explaining that to me, as I said, it is a concern that is quite poignant to me, but only because of the fact that we have already dealt with a spinal injury in my family (not through a riding accident I hasten to add!)

I am sure that the EXO has been tested beyond belief and we should all be very grateful that someone has invented something that will potentially help to save our lives. As with most new ideas, there are always teething problems.

I think there needs to be an extended trial of the EXO at events to get a data report going. I think half of the field should wear the EXO and the other half should go as they normally do and a further study should be made of falls AND how competitors wearing it felt with regards weight and bulkiness etc.

If this product was made available to try, rather than having to buy, whilst this study was going on, you may find that more people will be willing to buy it for themselves after the study?

Or am I just in cloud cuckoo land?!
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I think that potentially that is a good idea wizoz although have no idea how it would work.

As i said if i could get one to fit i would be very keen to try riding in one. The fact that LauraT rode round bramham in one makes me think i'm stupid to think it will interfer with my riding at a lower level...but everyone is different.

The more this thread continues the more i think perhaps we are all completely insane for not wearing something that could save our life. Noone would go xc without a hat would they?!
 
Kerilli,

If the person jumping up and down on you was devastatingly handsome, intelligent, warm hearted and kind - then that was me
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more seriously we have had two adult men jumping up and don on a petite female rider (quite scary for her), there is no pressure...

I think that this was a point made most dramatically when a rider in 2005 was in a rotational fall with a 500kg horse landing on her from 1m up (1* event) - we could find no damage at all to the Exo - amazing really...

Do write to the RDA, I would love to see it developed further...


Wizoz,

credit for the invention should go to Matt Aspray the inventor who came up with the idea - I only did the business side of the company, so his bit worked, my bit didn't
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I totally understand the thoughts on extended testing, but would also observe that it has been ridden in by a number of people - e.g. Kitty Boggis who is quoted in the H&H article who rode with it at advanced levels - the only issues mentioned was weight, and only on the basis of in-equality between those wearing it and those not wearing it...

I think that there are opportunities to try the product - does Derby House not have an arena? but understand that this doesn't work for everyone, and is not the same as testing it in anger at an event...

you can always suggest this, but probably not an easy one commercially as if you decide not to then buy it, it might not be easy to sell a muddy body protector!

regards

Alasdair Kirk
Managing Director
Bodycage
 
[ QUOTE ]

The more this thread continues the more i think perhaps we are all completely insane for not wearing something that could save our life. Noone would go xc without a hat would they?!

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I agree totally with the first point.

Hahaha to the second... how many times have I seen people jumping big fences at home, sometimes on youngsters, without a hat.

A LOT of riders have a definite "it won't happen to me, i'm too good" attitude, I think. Perhaps this failure to face the possible consequences is what keeps them brave enough to ride xc, I don't know. But the fact is that some very very good riders have had very bad falls (and fatalities) simply because they got it a bit wrong, or they got it right but the horse made a mistake.

Anyone who has seen Darren Chiacchia's fall (at a PN/N fence) will agree with me. He jumped the previous fences fine off good strides, he wasn't hurrying the horse at all, he jumped into a simple little xc combination fine, the horse for some reason decided to try to add another stride which simply wasn't there... consequence, 1 horrific fall.
I doubt any of us would have ridden that fence and that horse substantially differently. It was horse error.
And while we continue to ride horses (which, much as I adore them, I know are not smart enough to have worked out not to poo on their hay/in their water bucket yet), that danger will always be there.

the idea of trying the Exo xc is a very good one, i'd be game. I thought it was very comfy, fwiw.
 
Are they still available to purchase? I have been interested for a while, but actually haven't come across them locally at events / tack shops. I also heard that they are only available in 6 different sizes. That must limit their appeal somewhat.
 
Earlier this year I did the BHS EFSAC course and the instructor seemed fairly anti- to the rigid one because it can't quickly be torn open/unvelcro'd to reveal the patient's chest for resuss, but you need the correct allen key for that frame and preferrably you need an allen key with every first-aid official so there is minimal time delay in administering resuss.

He was also anti-rugby shirts for similar reasons - being designed for rugby, they're designed not to rip, and in an emergency resuss situation you need to rip the fabric away from the chest.

Underwired bras. Excellent for lung puncturing esp once the bra is a little worn and the rider falls and it pushes the wire through the worn fabric, inbetween the ribs and hey presto, punctured lung.
 
Do the RDA have the funds to develop the product further - but then am I right in thinking they licence it to Woof wear who are the ones investing in the product?

Alisdair, if you don't mind answering this, when does the patent expire? I completely 100% see your point of view on why you couldn't allow other companies to manufacture it, but the sad truth is competition would bring the price down and promote innovation.

I truly hope the product thrives and it becomes compulsory, if it is as good as it sounds. How frustrating for you that for whatever reason it wasn't commercially viable for you.

On a slightly different note, does anyone know why body protectors are often referred to as back protectors? And if there is anybody who is working on a solution for back/neck injuries?
 
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Earlier this year I did the BHS EFSAC course and the instructor seemed fairly anti- to the rigid one because it can't quickly be torn open/unvelcro'd to reveal the patient's chest for resuss, but you need the correct allen key for that frame and preferrably you need an allen key with every first-aid official so there is minimal time delay in administering resuss.

<font color="blue"> It was mentioned earlier in the thread that the allen keys are provided in pockets on the product with symbols for use. </font>
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He was also anti-rugby shirts for similar reasons - being designed for rugby, they're designed not to rip, and in an emergency resuss situation you need to rip the fabric away from the chest.

<font color="blue">
Ok, but they should all carry a pair of tough cut scissors in their packs anyway? I do appreciate that this adds vital seconds on to resuss time though </font>

Underwired bras. Excellent for lung puncturing esp once the bra is a little worn and the rider falls and it pushes the wire through the worn fabric, inbetween the ribs and hey presto, punctured lung.

<font color="blue"> Agree there and I have seen this injury in different sports too </font>

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Suechoccy, that is very interesting. anyone wearing an underwired bra for xc must be mad anyway imho, but i will rethink wearing my (favourite, ancient) rugby shirt!

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I'm not sure I own any which aren't underwired....
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I'm not sure I own any which aren't underwired....
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I own one, which is a quite expensive sports bra that I bought from DH, and I must admit it is really supportive (and I'm not that small in the chest area!
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)
 
[ QUOTE ]
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Suechoccy, that is very interesting. anyone wearing an underwired bra for xc must be mad anyway imho, but i will rethink wearing my (favourite, ancient) rugby shirt!

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I'm not sure I own any which aren't underwired....
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Ah, what I meant was that most sports bras just flatten it all out, don't they? no wire, iirc. (not that i need one anyway!)

The fact about the underwire is the sort of thing that needs to be universally known imho.
having had a punctured lung (from my own elbow apparently, nice) i wouldn't wish it on anyone!
 
I ride in underwire sure - I have to! - I have absurdly large ones.... hate em!
- But I hunt, XC, event in a sports bra - would dare ride for longer than 30 mins with out one I would knock my self out!! Plus the thought of a punctured lung gives me the heebeegeebees.

I to be honest have been enlightened by this thread - &amp; product Iwish I had known more about it sooner - as TD said - Marketing dept - SHOCKING!!

I know after Rosie was flipped and escaped luckily on an Intermediate horse - she tried one on - but the small was too long for her.
My only qualm - the weight - make it out of carbon fibre (which I reckon will be LOTS more £$£$£) plus - make it colourful it will appeal to the masses!!
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hmk101,

yes, you can still buy them - there is a list of suppliers at www.woofwear.com
or contact them for suppliers near you...

they are available in 5 sizes as the tooling for the frame builds one size of each piece and then they slide in and out of each other like meccano to make it bigger or smaller 5 variances in size from one set of tooling is a limitation without opening up the possibility of making the product less strong... The cost is in building new tooling for new sizes - unless the demand is there it is not commercial - the current sizes cover a large part of the main riding market but unfortunately not all shapes...


Suechoccy,

can understand that concept but actually not 100% accurate as the device can be unclipped on both / either side to open it up - the need for the allen keys is purely to separate bits of the frame work... also - all the area of garment around the skeletal frame is standard Beta level 3 body protector foam / material which can be cut with appropriate knife as any other body protector - this leavs ample space to get to the chest as necessary... There is a lot of inaccurate information regarding the ability to deal with someone after an accident... you can deal with them - the approach is slightly different, but the ability is still there


Naturally,

I can talk for the RDA / Woof Wear, the RDA own the IPR (Intellectual property rights aka patent) and they own the licence with Woof Wear (meaning that they collect royalties as appropriate for sales of the item...) so a proportion of the cost of each one bought will go to the RDA.

The patent is granted for 20 years, so there is a good % of that still running, I can't remember the exact dates without checking - but it is in the region of c. 15yrs to run, however the patent is about who has the controll, the licence is about who can manufacture against that patent - and that is up to the RDA / Woof Wear etc. Woof Wear is the company to whom we licenced the IPR, they put a lot into the development of the product and their licence is still running - what will happen now though is between those two organisations.

I see where you are coming from - competition does help consumers, but it is the simple maths of it - if this product cost over £1 million to develop - which it will have done by the time you include all costs from all companies, and then you have to add on marketing / sales / distribution costs... you need to have the potential for a very large financial return to allow a number of companies to compete with their own products - it just will not happen economically, it is not commerccial sense - nothing to do with not wanting that - from our point of view (benefit to the rider) that would be ideal, you just wouldn't have the licencee putting in the investment without some form of protection for their investment in the form of exclusivity of one type or another.

The thing is that we are not talking about a simple product - e.g. a riding hat, in principle all riding hats work in the same way, the fundamental understanding is there, the design / testing work is around areas such as ventilation / area of cover / comfort / etc. not around the principle of the way in which the helmet actually protects you - they are all pretty much identical there, so it is possible for a number of companies to all innovate in the same market sector.

With the Exo, we took a principle from motorsport (rally car roll cages) and adapted it to the human body for riders. We were the first to develop the concept (many scientists said that it was impossible to do this....), we had to develop the testing, we had to find ways to keep rigidity but not restrict movement, we had to meet the Beta level 3 standards around the cage (if you didn't have the foam the product would be much lighter / better, but without the coverage it would not meet Beta Level 3 standards - ironic really), we had to work with metallurgists to find the optimum metal to be the ideal combination of: weight / cost / strength / etc. The product is made in Taiwan and Vietnam, and distributed in the UK, we had to work with riders to test it, etc. All of this adds up to a very expensive approach, from the initial university based computer modelling through to the final work on putting together the instructions - huge numbers of man hours / investment...

yes, it would be ideal to have a number of people doing it - I just can't see the maths stacking up...

yes frustrating for us - but immensely rewarding - there are those still alive after horrendous accidents who make it worth while.

I think that back protectors are named as such as the are the sequential development of products which started with a piece of foam people used to slide down the back of their jumpers...
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No knowledge of current work on neck injuries - but in our time developing the Exo the neck was very much the Holy Grail, but almost impossible to deal with - see my points above on this.

regards

Alasdair Kirk
Managing Director
Bodycage
 
[ QUOTE ]
we had to meet the Beta level 3 standards around the cage (if you didn't have the foam the product would be much lighter / better, but without the coverage it would not meet Beta Level 3 standards - ironic really),

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How stupid, as straight away it would apeal more to me!!
If there was a shop that stocked them, that didn't mind you riding in one and jumping a jump. i'd be much more interested..
Also, all body protectors come in custom colours now. where as the Exo just comes in black?? i'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to make it in custom colours??
 
Indeed - but esp. when new and unknown, to not have the Beta level 3 standard would have made people suspicious that the product was of lesser value than others...

we did pursue the idea of a Beta level 4 standard / parallel system for crush protection, but were told that because we had the exclusive international patent on protection against crushing, therefore no new standard could be considered as others had no ability to produce products to that standard...
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as for colours
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this started among body protectors as a way of marketing them as different and has become very popular, but again it is the scale of economy - for the Exo to be priced at a reasonable price - it has to be made abroad, and therefore has to be made consistently, not knowing who will buy it...

many of the body protector manufacturers still operate as a 'cottage industry' with out workers sewing a body protector to order, so it becomes very easy to mix and match colours / fabrics / etc. in addition, the fabric &amp; foam is the body protector - for the Exo, it has to then have the skeleton inserted, so more complex...

regards

Alasdair Kirk
Managing Director
Bodycage
 
I would definitely be wearing this if the fit was slightly better.

It seems to sit so high above the shoulders and seems so bulky, im quite petite (size8) and I feel restricted in my RP let alone this!
 
[ QUOTE ]
How stupid, as straight away it would apeal more to me!!
If there was a shop that stocked them, that didn't mind you riding in one and jumping a jump. i'd be much more interested..


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I really think they missed a trick here - put one of each size in every shop attached to a XC course (so for us Stockland Lovell say) and advertise that you can try them when you hire the course for schooling. So simple yet a brilliant way to boost sales I would have said.

Maybe there was a logistical problem with this?
 
SC, i hate to say it, but just how long do you think they'd stay there without getting nicked!
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(oh, sorry, "driven off with by accident.")
You'd have to get £300 deposit every time someone waltzed out the door in one.

I can see why they only come in black, doesn't worry me, number covers most of my back protector anyway. I always wore my rugby shirt over my first (shorter) back protector.
Re: colour. If you had, say, 3 different colours, and 5 different sizes, you'd have to have a basic stock of 15 just to have 1 in every size, and it's s*d's law that 3 customers wanting a size 2 in navy will come along...!
 
Hmmm i agree that trying one would be ideal but incredibly difficult to put into practice.

i'm sure people would get over the colour thing if everything else was right, the fit is now the only thing that would stop me.

Incidently i started wearing my bp over my xc top a couple of years ago after my trainer went on a first aid for instructors type course. The doctor there advised that everyone should do it this way round as it could save vital seconds in getting to your chest.
 
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