Body protector or air vest?

[Auslander]

Peter you did not say there were no European standards in your first post you said there were no standards.

There are.

What point are you trying to make? That the thousands of bikes and riders around the world who wear air jackets shouldn't because there's no European Standard?

That the FEI should withdraw their recommendation that they are worn on international cross country courses because there's no European standard?

Do you even wear one yourself?
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Are you sure the FEI recommend that they are used? As far as I can see, the only comment that they have about air jackets is that they can only be worn for the cross country (and warmup) over a mandatory approved body protector, but can be worn alone for the dressage/showjumping if the manufacturer states that it is suitable for wearing alone. I see that as a "Feel free to wear them if you wish" but not an active recommendation. I have not read the rule book from cover though - just the Safety programme update ref use of body protectors, so happy to be pointed in the right direction if i've missed something

 

[ycbm]

Air vests are officially recommended for cross-country in international eventing fixtures for the first time in 2022.

I got it from this article in Horse and Hound

Air jackets, concussion and blood tests: future of rider safety at events under the spotlight

Air vests are officially recommended for cross-country by the FEI in international eventing fixtures for the first time in 2022

www.horseandhound.co.uk

 

[Auslander]

I got it from this article in Horse and Hound

Air jackets, concussion and blood tests: future of rider safety at events under the spotlight

Air vests are officially recommended for cross-country by the FEI in international eventing fixtures for the first time in 2022

www.horseandhound.co.uk

That's great. Nice to see the FEI moving with the times!

 

[Bobthecob15]

What did you decide OP? I’m debating the same! I’ve just ordered a race safe which is the first BP I’ve bought in about 30 years the Racesafe is a lot more comfortable than my old one was!

I can’t afford a new air jacket but have seen several second hand ones online…just wondering if the air jacket would be more comfortable? It’s only for hacking and fun rides really. Thanks

 

[ycbm]

Air jackets are a lot more comfortable than body protectors.
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[Bobthecob15]

Air jackets are a lot more comfortable than body protectors.
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They are but are second hand ones ok?? I mean I can’t really afford a new one x

 

[MereChristmas]

They are but are second hand ones ok?? I mean I can’t really afford a new one x

If you buy a second hand one send it immediately to be serviced. It still is cheaper than new.
Make sure you know your size.

 

[Cloball]

Is there any studies comparing one or tother with both. I have found studies comparing air vest to BP to without but never in combination. My sister was working for the company that did some of the original trials and I have seen some of the data. I hesitate at that being used as a gold standard based on an assumption they work well together. Just very curious. Can't afford an air vest just yet but it's next on the list.

 

[ycbm]

They are but are second hand ones ok?? I mean I can’t really afford a new one x

Second hand Point 2 are fine because the bag will be replaced if you send it for a £60 service. A Hit Air bag can't be replaced, it's bound to the outer, and if the jacket is over 5 years old it can't even be serviced. I don't know what the situation with Helite is.
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[ycbm]

Is there any studies comparing one or tother with both. I have found studies comparing air vest to BP to without but never in combination. My sister was working for the company that did some of the original trials and I have seen some of the data. I hesitate at that being used as a gold standard based on an assumption they work well together. Just very curious. Can't afford an air vest just yet but it's next on the list.

I don't know of any. The gold standard is obviously both together, but individually they each have different strengths and weaknesses. The body protector won't make you bounce or help your neck at all. The air jacket won't help at all unless it blows up.

 

[Cloball]

@ycbm I'm mostly just curious as to how much better both is to just an air jacket. The gold standard in my mind needs evidence.

 

[Bobthecob15]

@ycbm I'm mostly just curious as to how much better both is to just an air jacket. The gold standard in my mind needs evidence.

Yep ‘gold standard’ in any other area requires a heck of a lot of high quality research to support it.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I’ll go that both is gold standard, though I cannot quote research on that. Air jackets and body protectors work in different ways that can complement each other.

The obvious main benefit of a body protector is once it’s on, it’s on, and you don’t need to remember to clip the lanyard to the saddle. I won’t be the only one who has come back from a ride to find that I’d forgotten to clip the air jacket lanyard on…

If you rely on an air jacket but the horse flips while you are mounting (not an uncommon scenario) it won’t have been clipped in, so won’t activate. Your BP still gives protection when mounting and dismounting. You need two hands to clip the air jacket lanyard on, which can be interesting if the horse is messing about, whereas your BP is already on.

There are some falls when the rider and horse fall sideways together when the air jacket won’t activate as the rider is still sitting in the saddle. You are relying on your BP at that point.

I have both, but as yet have only worn one or t’other.

Is there any way that wearing both makes you less safe than wearing just one? Not that I can think of.

 

[ycbm]

If you rely on an air jacket but the horse flips while you are mounting (not an uncommon scenario) it won’t have been clipped in, so won’t activate. Your BP still gives protection when mounting and dismounting. You need two hands to clip the air jacket lanyard on, which can be interesting if the horse is messing about, whereas your BP is already on.

I always clip on before mounting but you do need to teach your horse to stand still. About a year ago I had a stirrup break on mounting and fell onto the mounting block and the jacket still went off soon enough to stop me being hurt. Even if the horse is small, it will stop you crashing into the floor if you fall backwards away from the horse.

I also clip on with one hand. Partly that will be because I have long nimble fingers and can do the standard attachment with one hand. But also because I used to tie a D ring to a stirrup bar with very strong cord and clip to the D ring. The D rings, of course, are only stapled to a saddle and not safe if you don't do that. And it needs to be a saddle with high quality D rings.
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[ycbm]

Yep ‘gold standard’ in any other area requires a heck of a lot of high quality research to support it.

I define "gold standard" for anything as "there is no better available" and an air jacket over a body protector is that.
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[ycbm]

@ycbm I'm mostly just curious as to how much better both is to just an air jacket.

It's pretty obvious that air jackets don't stop you being injured of you don't come away from the attachment point, so will do nothing until you do, but a body protector doesn't protect your neck. The two together are patently better protection than they are alone, but my own feeling is that incidents that cause injury without the air jacket firing, and stab injuries, which could be prevented by a BP, are pretty rare and for me not worth the discomfort and fuss of a BP.

I'm not sure what evidence we could ask for. The only group of riders who routinely wear both are eventers. You'd have to get a group of similar shape size and ability riders to do the same sort of riding as each other in an air jacket, in a BP, in both and in neither and compare injury rates. It would take a very big sample and a long time to produce any meaningful results.
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[Roasted Chestnuts]

I’m looking at the Hunter version of the P2. I should have bought one last year in all honesty as if I fall off again I might be in bother with my spinal damage but I’ve put it off.

I’ll need to get a BP as well as mine is now out of date. Just money all the time isn’t it

 

[Bernster]

I was looking at the helite the other day and it seems like the air jacket design doesn’t do much for your rib cage area - at the sides. That’s what I hurt last year wearing just my BP, which probably also had a slight weakness there as I’ve got the racesafe which joins up on each side. But maybe with an air jacket the fact that you’ve got inflation around you (seems like it’s inflated around your hips) might give you that bit of protection not to hit the ground directly on your side? The P2 one might have more inflated area around the sides than the helite, but that wasn’t inflated in the shop for me to see If it was.

 

[ycbm]

It does protect the sides because the material bridging the front and back of the air bag stretches tight and acts like a trampoline surface.


This is another key difference between the fit of the Hit Air and the other two. Because the Hit Air fits tighter and the bag only blows up outward from the body, there is no protection for any part of the body not covered by the air bag. There is a particularly worrying gap at the base of the neck over the spine.
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[Surbie]

What did you decide OP? I’m debating the same!

I still haven't got either. Unfortunately my legs have got pretty bad and my riding has been very limited. I haven't ridden for nearly 2 months now. It's hugely frustrating.

 

[Pedantic]

Always been happy with my Ninja Turtles BP with shoulder pads, for hacking and general ménage stuff, if I was good enough for eventing cross country stuff, I would be wanting an air vest

 

[Barklands]

What did you decide OP? I’m debating the same! I’ve just ordered a race safe which is the first BP I’ve bought in about 30 years the Racesafe is a lot more comfortable than my old one was!

I can’t afford a new air jacket but have seen several second hand ones online…just wondering if the air jacket would be more comfortable? It’s only for hacking and fun rides really. Thanks

I have a hit air and whilst yes you can ride just in the air jacket and it is more comfortable, they are designed to be worn in conjunction with a body protector. I once came off in my air jacket without a BP underneath and was very winded as they expand with some force and very tight around the middle (obviously in order to quickly to protect and stabilise those areas!).

So if your thought process is to wear instead of BP, I wouldn't recommend. However, if you want to add as an extra safety layer 100% go for it, since they are longer it has saved my coccyx and neck on several occasions and none of the stiffness the next day!

 

[ycbm]

I have a hit air and whilst yes you can ride just in the air jacket and it is more comfortable, they are designed to be worn in conjunction with a body protector. I once came off in my air jacket without a BP underneath and was very winded as they expand with some force and very tight around the middle (obviously in order to quickly to protect and stabilise those areas!).

So if your thought process is to wear instead of BP, I wouldn't recommend.

I don't know if this is true of Hit Air but it definitely isn't true of P2. I had one of the first ever P2 jackets which were originally produced as a safari style waistcoat.

It was BE that insisted they could only be worn with a body protector. Outside of the cross country course, most P2 users wear them alone.

They originally came from motor cycle users and the first I heard of them was that the Japanese Police motorcyclists had them.

A jacket that winds the user is fitted too tight. It should hug close, not leave you breathless.
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[Skib]

I have always ridden in a BP and dont know I am wearing it. But recently I checked OH's air jacket which he wore only a few times, and I discovered that it was too old to be refurbished for me.

 

[ycbm]

I have always ridden in a BP and dont know I am wearing it. But recently I checked OH's air jacket which he wore only a few times, and I discovered that it was too old to be refurbished for me.

So that's a Hit Air over 5 years old? P2 seem happy to service any age of jacket as long as its got the bayonet canister fitting and will replace a screw fitting jacket for a bayonet fitting at half price.
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[Jambarissa]

Theres research on falls in eventing and the data says you are more likely to be injured if you are wearing an air vest. Note that is just statistics, it's not saying the air jacket causes it, it could be that poorer riders wear them, or people wearing them take more risks, or people with existing injuries wear them and so are more likely to be hurt in a fall.

(apologies half my reply is in a quote box above, I have no idea why!!)

But it could be that the air jacket causes it. There is speculation that it changes the angle of your fall, it takes something like 30-60kg of pressure to pull the plug, in my mind that has to change your trajectory.

My most recent bad fall was wearing just an air vest and typically the horse fell with me and it didn't go off. We were both sideways on the ground and my foot was stuck in the top stirrup, if she'd got up I'd have been dragged and even an inflated jacket wouldn't have helped me for long.

I always wear my BP and wore my air vest over it until I thought it was too old to be trusted anyway. But I don't think we should assume both is gold standard with no evidence to back it up.

I guess the other issue is to be honest with yourself if you really will have it serviced regularly and be ready to bin it. Do you change your hat when you should?

 

[Sossigpoker]

I have a hit air and whilst yes you can ride just in the air jacket and it is more comfortable, they are designed to be worn in conjunction with a body protector. I once came off in my air jacket without a BP underneath and was very winded as they expand with some force and very tight around the middle (obviously in order to quickly to protect and stabilise those areas!).

So if your thought process is to wear instead of BP, I wouldn't recommend. However, if you want to add as an extra safety layer 100% go for it, since they are longer it has saved my coccyx and neck on several occasions and none of the stiffness the next day!

It sounds like your HitAir is too tight in the middle. It absolutely shouldn't be so tight it makes you feel winded. You should be able to fit your fist between you and the vest around your ribs when you're wearing it.

 

[ycbm]

Theres research on falls in eventing and the data says you are more likely to be injured if you are wearing an air vest. Note that is just statistics, it's not saying the air jacket causes it, it could be that poorer riders wear them, or people wearing them take more risks, or people with existing injuries wear them and so are more likely to be hurt in a fall.

That research is from the early days and it was much later that the FEI issued guidance that from 2022 air jackets were advisory for the XC.
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[planete]

I went round the shops yesterday, tried a few body protectors, hated them as much as I did twenty years ago when I had one foisted on me. Tried a few air vests and gilets and finally bought a Seaver Safefit as the option I am most likely to wear. I now have to find a way of anchoring it securely to the Torsion saddle. Oh, and I got a Uvvex hat, incredibly light compared to my old pudding basin. No idea if it was the wisest choices but I probably would leave the things in the cupboard after a few weeks if I did not feel comfortable in them.

 

[Bobthecob15]

Thanks all, I’ve ordered a racesafe BP. Tried it on in the shop and it was super comfortable compared to my BP as a child