Bonkers black pony has bad news

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BBP

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We have been monitoring his blood enzyme levels since April when a little pony over the road died of liver failure. In May his GGT was 100 (they say normal is 50ish). Vet said to rest him, so did very gentle games and that was about it, all good as nice hot summer chilled him out. End of August we re-tested. GGT was 220. No panic, we discussed the possibility of not really knowing the natural fluctuations and just monitor him regularly. He showed no symptoms, bright eyes, good weight, full of energy, shiny coat, never lethargic or off his food. Vet said ok to exercise as I saw fit as long as not strenuous. Pony goes wild in cold weather so would only gallop around the field daily if not kept in work. So I rode him, schooling, hacking, even jumped him a little but never enough to work him hard (basically never pushing him, but if he wanted to canter letting him). I would consider it a light maintenance workload. His little field buddy who is 27 and a haffie was blood tested in April, levels were around 80.

6 weeks after last blood test, bonkers black pony GGT is 566, triple his results from last time. The haffie is at 677. She has been on field rest as retired, he has been in work. Both are on the same hay and grazing as each other but different to the ponies over the road, one of whoms GGT is up at 900 and has been since June. He is on rest and treatment with antibiotics and steriods. His has been identified as infection in bile ducts and his bile acids have been raised. Ours are normal with normal liver function.

Next step is a scan and sending vets a full diary of pony management. Then biopsy as last resort (haffie doesn't travel well and mine would find vets very stressful)

He is still 100% bright eyed, shiny, great weight, loves his food, full of energy and bounce, never lethargic. this mornign he was bouncing aorund the arena chasing his football with not a care in the world. We have three great equine vets working on it between us and they are all totally confused. None seem to think it is liver fluke but i don't think this has been tested for and I don't know why not.

I'm so sad over it all, I was so sure his results would be better. The funny thing is, had littleun not died, i would still not have had him blood tested, we would still be working as normal.
 
I think some horses react badly to the treatment so they don't tend to do it as a standard, but I am going to call them back today to find out why they haven't mentioned it to me still.
 
:(, is it possible to turn them out elsewhere to see if that makes a difference/get a plant ID bod in?

IIRC when Miss_Cs genie was ill (was actually ill not just levels up though) she really struggled to tolerate grass for a bit and was better in and on hay but I imagine BBP wouldn't be keen on that.
 
Is the liver fluke test simple and not likely to cause harm? If so, I think I'd be demanding that. The vets can think what they like, doesn't make them right. Since you're spending out on vet fees anyway, it would be a shame if pony died after all the expense, just for saving money on another test. I know its not really about the money but what I mean is, if you're going down the vet route rather than take a 'wait and see' approach, then you may as well give it all you've got.

As I'm sure you're aware you won't see any symptoms until the liver is failing completely and by then its probably too late to do anything at all.

Have you tried taking them off the grazing totally (your post implies it is a possible cause) and feeding branded bagged forage instead of local hay/haylage? Not as a long term solution, but to rule out the grazing/hay as a cause and if it does turn out to be the cause you could move to a different area.

ETA: sorry my post is a bit pointless you all posted while I was typing!
 
Not at all, he is not impressed at being in due to the wet weather the last two nights! Still, I think this will be the start of him coming in for the night through the winter anyway. The problem with turning out anywhere else is that the ponies over the road on different grazing also have liver issues and there are several yards in the area who have been struck by grass sickness this year, so it feels like no-where is safe. they have been having hay to suppliment their grass (grazing is too good for them so they just get a strip and then hay) but we are now switching to this years hay instead of last years, so that could make a difference if last years hay grown in such wet conditions could have been a problem. it's just such a mystery.

I stripgraze so there are no unknown weeds in my fields, anything odd as I move the strip gets pulled up. I can't bare the thought of him getting poorly, he is the happiest horse I've ever met, if he did get low i would know something was terribly wrong.
 
Not pointless at all, any input is valuable and im certainly not discounting it. I have just emailed my vet between posts here to ask for fluke test. Like you say, it's crazy to just skip over the possibility. Money really isn't a concern when it comes to this stuff, I have savings for stuff like this, and if i didn't Id find it. The only reason we went with wait and see is because the levels weren't crazy high and my sisters other pony went back down, we thought it might be natural fluctuations that we've never monitored before. he panics in strange situations which is why I didn't rush straight for the biopsy. Now it's tripled in 6 weeks i'm really worried.
 
Fluke is difficult to diagnose in sheep apart from postmortem so that could be why they aren't doing it. Not sure how they would do it in horses(because no one is going to pay for a scan on a sheep for instance). Are there sheep in the area? If so see if the farmer sells any direct to slaughter and if he knows if the livers are condemned or not/has a fluke problem maybe?
 
No sheep in the area that I know of, we are very arable here. The closest livestock is a very small herd of cattle 500m down the road. The only thing that troubles me is how wet our land was last year and whether it has brought some sort of bacteria up through the soil. I just hope that with so many vets researching this now, including the Cambridge University Vet School, we may learn more about these liver assaults.
 
Just wanted to send positive vibes for recovery, what a worrying time for you. The not knowing what you are dealing with is really hard, sometimes it is easier to cope with hard facts.

You seem to have lots of research into the cause being investigated for you, so I do hope you find the answers soon.
 
Thank you, that's very kind. As you say, not knowing can be more frightening than the facts even if they aren't good.
 
My friends horse has had liver problems. About 18 months ago he went down on his knees whilst she was riding him and couldn't get back up for about 5 mins. He's had every test under the sun, bloods biopsies etc etc. his levels were baffling vets, even Liverpool had his tests and couldn't find a cause. She text me a picture of tablets he was on and it looked like she'd ram raided a chemist.
One day she decided enough was enough and took him off everything. Vets agreed with her ill just add.
He's now out hacking for a good hour including cantering. He never looked poor or sorry and to this day the vets still don't know what was wrong with him. His levels are still high but he's happy and still dragging her around everywhere.

It's a very bizarre case.
 
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So sorry you are going through this, he is a gorgeous pony and looks perfectly healthy. The only thing I can think of is mycotoxins in your pasture/forage, but I expect the vets have tested for this? Sorry if this has been mentioned already, and I hope he gets better soon.
 
Where abouts are you based? I know your local to me and I know of another horse that had liver issues locally. But the vet did that horses biopsy at home so might be worth asking if yours will do the same.
 
I'm west of Cambridge. I've just been talking to vet of the ponies over the road. Come home in tears just stressing but I think I need to just man up and get him biopsied. I'm probably panicing about it more than he will.
 
Have you had the ground checked...e.g. Soil analysis just to see what is in there???..... Seeing there is a continuous rise in levels and nothing has changed...the only factor that you can't really control is the grass/ soil intake of the horse.
Last year was very wet and a lot of nasties were spread about. If you are mostly arable think of all the chemicals sprayed on the land near by!, could quite easily soak into the soil and be washed some place else!
 
I've not properly read this but wanted to say my horses and every horse on an old yard suffered with this liver enzyme issue. The grass was poisoning them and my vet made me get them off the land. Within a month the levels had gone from 550 to 150 and 250 to normal on both of my mares

Vet said the cause was something they were ingesting and a yr later I found out from another livery who's horses levels were 2000+. That the grass was put down in the 70 when there was a grazing ban and it should have been dug up and reseeded before horses and cattle where allowed on there

It was a newish yard when we arrived
 
Not really, we only have one immediate boundary with an arable field (housing/gardens/roads) on other sides. I'm not sure what he's done with it this year. Mine is old ridge and furrow grazing, had horses on forthe 15yrs I know of and was cattle a long time ago. Vet today said one hypothesis is last years hay in the wet year.Trying to rack my brains for what i fed and when.
 
I'd move. If all the horses have it, even those over the road, then I'd say it is something to do with grazing and would move as far away as is feasible to travel to each day.
 
MOVE THEM and MOVE THEM ASAP. I have had very similar to you, my horse has been really poorly with liver issues for the past 2 years, getting progressively worse, she has never looked ill and never really shown any symptoms, she has had 2 biopsies, special diet, insurance ran out, treated for liver fluke, blood tested every 4 weeks, at one point she was on 14 different supplements, everything from milk thistle and blood tonics, to hepatosyl, steroids and antibiotics, i have spent over £7000 on supplements in the last year alone, at one point she was on 135 pills a day and her blood levels just continued to get worse until the bile level was finally compromised - at its worse her GGT was over 700. Bile was 21. vet finally gave up and said we were 'losing the battle' said he would support me in contacting any specialists i wanted.

Derek Knottenbelt at Liverpool was one of a few who responded to a frantic email from me. He said he believed in 'what you could see' not 'what bloods say' .. he reviewed all my results (put them in a spreadsheet for easy review) and he said they showed classic signs of toxicity/poisoning and i should move her ASAP and take her off ALL supplements as they were just making her liver work harder.

That was 4 weeks ago. Just had another blood test. Within 4 weeks of moving and having slowly been taken off steroids she is now simply on one vit E pill a day (1000 ui from health food shop). Her results are amazing. 4 out of 6 levels are normal. GGT down to 139 and only LDH now raised, everything else well within normal levels. General consensus from everyone involved it was something at the old place that she couldnt deal with.

Seems to be a surge in problems, I wonder if its to do with very wet winter and very dry summer or something. Who knows. if you want help/advice or want me to look at your bloods PM me - i am not qualified but have reviewed my nags for the past 2 years, happy to talk through the supplements i tried as well - or just be a shoulder to cry on. According to Derek K I am not out of the woods yet, but should crack on and retest in 6 months and he thinks she will be fit and well...

Please move them, I wish i had moved mine a year ago xx
 
KatPT I really feel for you, I've mentioned before my boy suffered from liver problems at the beginning of this year. I really think there is a link with last years wet summer and the consequent levels of toxins in grass and hay. I'm no vet/scientist but I feel extremely strongly about this theory.

If I was in your position, and money was no issue, I would move him to another yard, even if it was 100 miles away. And I'd put him on this years hay. Then re blood test in a month.

I had the biopsy done on my boy, all it could say is that the liver wasn't in too bad a state and that they didn't think it was caused by an infection, so either poisoning (toxic substances) or a virus. But it's all a bit vague. I don't regret doing it as my boy was showing signs of being ill and he's doesn't stress easily. But maybe try moving him and changing the forage first. Steroids helped get my boys liver working properly again and I put him on box rest (no grass) and changed his hay, and soaked it. I still soak his hay to this day, and his liver is working well (touch wood)
I figure if there are toxins in the hay, soaking it can only help.
 
Switch the horse, how long was your horse at the yard for before it became ill? I really appreciate all the comments guys. Moving him is tough, partly because I keep him at home so the change in finance would be difficult and partly because as I said, we have had grass sickness all over the place and the vet I spoke to today said they have had liver issues from every quarter, more cases than they have ever had before. I wonder how many other horses in the area have raised enzymes but the owners have never had them blood tested because like mine they show no symptoms. The whole region was flooded. Please don't think I'm discounting the idea though, I will start looking at options. In the mean time I can try to source some hay from another area. As I said, he is now on this years hay, I don't know if that will help.

I really appreciate the replies though (even if some are scaring me a bit), thanks everyone.
 
I think it might help. This years hay does seem much better and wasn't subjected to the same awful weather of last year. I'd soak it as well too. Could you have the forage tested and the soil too?
 
Hi, i know how tricky it all is, and its so ruddy overwhelming, so much information and you look at the horse and it looks fine. I do often (like you say) wonder how many other horses are poorly but people just don't know. Mine had infectious hepatitis in 2012 but recovered fully and then over the last year I have been a bit suspect with some of her behaviour (guess i have been looking for symptoms) so had bloods done and they were raised again but no infection so different. In total she had been there 3 years, it was only in the last 6 months they have got worse and worse - her AP was 707, AST 874, GGT at its worst was 500 ish and her LDH was over 1500, Bile was 21 at worst. BUT she looked fine!? Just a bit depressed and yawning - but only when stabled.

Its super pricy but suggested to me was haylage - the timothy grass one - so you know EXACTLY what is in it. She went onto a laminitic feed (because of the steroids) and all those supplements. If you do have him on a lot of supplements i would question the benefit versus the additional processing the liver has to do. If it is due to toxicity then they won't help anyway... I would definitely recommend a biopsy or at least just an ultrasound. My vet did biopsy at home, standing sedated and she was back in the field in 24hrs didnt even have a stitch. it showed us she has very little liver left but it was still trying to regenerate despite the insult.. it gave us hope! we also treated for liver fluke anyway just to eliminate that as a possibility. Shout if any more q's - they can get better x
 
KatPT said:
I'm west of Cambridge. I've just been talking to vet of the ponies over the road. Come home in tears just stressing but I think I need to just man up and get him biopsied. I'm probably panicing about it more than he will.
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This was north of Cambridge so not that close to you. Fingers crossed he is ok for the biopsy.
 
Thank you for all the information. Switchthehorse, what do your forage tests test for? My vet had said the trouble with testing the forage/grass/soil is that there are hundreds of micotoxins and you might have to test for all of them before you find the trigger, so it could cost thousands with no results. Which is why we haven't done it yet. but if you think the tests might help or have been recommended to you I would definitely be interested. Thank you.
 
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