Bought unseen problems returning

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I feel very sad for the OP, but I am sure she realises how very foolish she was to purchase a horse like this, sight unseen, no vetting etc. etc. so no point labouring the point. My main concern (sorry OP but it is a fact for me anyway) is the future of this poor horse. For one I could not bear the thought of sending him back to the dealer to continue on the merry go round of cruelty and abuse as he passes from one dealer to the next.

Because it is very much cruelty and abuse to offer a horse like this for sale when it very clearly has huge issues, either mentally or physically and never an offer of a permanent caring home willing to either get to the bottom of the issue or PTS. OP you are going to lose your money anyway, and I know that is a huge blow being a pensioner myself.

However, in view of that could you not just try at least to get a full vetting done to establish what, if any, health problems the horse has and then make decisions about trying to treat or get expert help if it is behaviour related? If you send him back I can guarantee you will not get any money back and any other horse offered to you will be the same if not worse. And can you truly rest easy knowing the poor horse is still in that cruel chain when you could have at least tried to help in. Big ask I know, but sometimes life throws huge curve balls at us, it is how we deal with them that makes the difference to not just ourselves but anyone or any animal that is affected by our more difficult life decisions.
 
I'm Dun said:
You arent going to get a refund sadly. 5k for a palomino safe as houses cob is probably a third of what he would be worth going nicely and presented well. You've been done. Theres going to be a physical issue. Did you not think given the market that this horse was suspiciously cheap?!

I have no idea why you are asking what the vet can do. The vet can vet the horse and find out what the issue is. If you dont want to do that then what exactly is your plan? Hope the dealer is visited by 3 ghosts and sees the light and refunds you? Its not going to happen. They know what they are doing and how to avoid ever paying anyone back.

This is your horse now and you need to find out what you are dealing with. Any horse from anywhere that I buy gets the dentist, physio etc as soon as I get them. Thats basic stuff. although in this instance Id probably go straight for a vet work up.

Or sell with a full explanation and hope someone coughs up £1000 or so. But it will depend what people see in the flesh. His musculature and posture in the sales ad would have me running for the hills unless he was priced at a point where I was happy to chuck his whole purchase price away. The people who will take a gamble are going to be bottom feeders, other dodgy dealers who will sell on within 48hours at a huge mark up. I coulnt live with myself doing that. Its wrong on every single level. Or you can PTS. Not something that would sit well with me without finding out what the issue was first but some people are tougher than others so it is an option. You might get lucky and get a rescue or charity to take him on as it looks like hes rideable so they might take the gamble on getting him right and rehoming,but its a long shot as most are full to bursting and not all rescues are what they seem either.

All of those options mean you can kiss the purchase price goodbye so accept that and focus on your next steps. Most options mean an investment of cash with no promise of a rideable horse at the end of it as well unfortunately. Sadly, whether you knew it or not, you took a huge gamble with all the odds stacked in your favour and you lost. Now you have a horse with issues that you dont want so you need to navigate that while making sure he doesnt end up in the hands of another dodgy dealer who will fleece someone else.
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Exactly this, its not turned out to be the horse you thought you were getting but its the horse you now have. If you do not want a exchange, where you could well end up with something as as bad you have the option of dealing with this horse and trying to sort his problems, sell or pts.
 
Unfortunately even if you take this person to Small Claims Ct you still won't get your money back. I know of someone that paid £10k for a very nice horse, that to be fair, was good but not suitable for them. \the dealer wouldn't take the horse back or refund the money. They ended up taking the dealer to Small Claims. I supplied a statement saying there was nothing wrong with the horse but was not suitable for the buyer. The judge found in the buyers favour but agreed the dealer could pay the money back at £10 pr month! The dealer moved to Southern Ireland and has never paid a penny. The owner did sell the horse through another professional but not for what she paid.
 
All the comments about not trying to return and instead work with what you have or sorting the horse out just enables the dodgy dealers to keep in dodgy dealing and making a mint at the back of it. If people don't fight back it will never change. No matter how naive, just because someone bought unseen doesn't legitimise a dealer punting on a broken or unsuitable horse. Yes the horse sadly suffers in the middle but it isn't the buyer's fault and shouldn't be their problem.
 
U.N.Owen said:
It does make me chuckle how many of these dodgy dealers think their made up Ts and Cs supersede the actual law 🤣
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People who you would not think as dodgy in the horse world often seem to think they have no liability in law, for goods and services provided. Just because you write you have no liability doesn't mean its true.
 
mariew said:
All the comments about not trying to return and instead work with what you have or sorting the horse out just enables the dodgy dealers to keep in dodgy dealing and making a mint at the back of it. If people don't fight back it will never change. No matter how naive, just because someone bought unseen doesn't legitimise a dealer punting on a broken or unsuitable horse. Yes the horse sadly suffers in the middle but it isn't the buyer's fault and shouldn't be their problem.
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I agree but if the buyer sends the horse back they can say Goodbye to the money, if she exchanges she will probably end up with something worse. Sadly it is the buyers problem now.
 
mariew said:
All the comments about not trying to return and instead work with what you have or sorting the horse out just enables the dodgy dealers to keep in dodgy dealing and making a mint at the back of it. If people don't fight back it will never change. No matter how naive, just because someone bought unseen doesn't legitimise a dealer punting on a broken or unsuitable horse. Yes the horse sadly suffers in the middle but it isn't the buyer's fault and shouldn't be their problem.
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In a perfect world then yes you are right. But we all know the horse world is far from perfect, especially when it comes to making money out of any horse. By constantly sending horses back to these people will not stop a single bin end dealer, I can assure you of that. Without a huge change in legislation and animal welfare laws this will NOT change and is unlikely to happen anytime soon.

Of course OP is justified in wanting her money back, of course she is justified in wanting to return the horse legally. But morally? When you know the likelihood of a happy ever after with her money back in full or a super steady middle aged cob sent to her in exchange! That just will not be happening. Sorry its not what my choice would be.
 
Unfortunately OP treated buying this horse like ordering a bicycle from Amazon, which could have been returned for a refund. And I would feel sorry for her being the victim of a dodgy dealer except that she still seems to be dealing with the horse as she would a bike.

OP, the poor horse is now your responsibility, whatever you decide to do in the future. He deserves the very best of care while he is with you, which might make up a little for what he has been through recently.
Although I wouldn't recommend your yard to anyone I also wouldn't move him just now. Leave him to settle, as his surroundings become more familiar, give him some turnout, get the vet back to look at him when he hasn't been shut up.for days and take it from there. Good luck!
 
mariew said:
All the comments about not trying to return and instead work with what you have or sorting the horse out just enables the dodgy dealers to keep in dodgy dealing and making a mint at the back of it. If people don't fight back it will never change. No matter how naive, just because someone bought unseen doesn't legitimise a dealer punting on a broken or unsuitable horse. Yes the horse sadly suffers in the middle but it isn't the buyer's fault and shouldn't be their problem.
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I'm afraid if someone buys unseen from a known dodgy dealer (and the smallest amount of research reveals this is a known dodgy dealer) then it becomes their problem, like it or not. Yes sure, pursue the culprit, try to get money back, name & shame, whatever, but I'm afraid the OP now owns this horse and she is responsible for what happens next. OP I hope and pray you do the right thing by this poor animal.
 
jules9203 said:
Unfortunately even if you take this person to Small Claims Ct you still won't get your money back. I know of someone that paid £10k for a very nice horse, that to be fair, was good but not suitable for them. \the dealer wouldn't take the horse back or refund the money. They ended up taking the dealer to Small Claims. I supplied a statement saying there was nothing wrong with the horse but was not suitable for the buyer. The judge found in the buyers favour but agreed the dealer could pay the money back at £10 pr month! The dealer moved to Southern Ireland and has never paid a penny. The owner did sell the horse through another professional but not for what she paid.
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In my case, I'd put a deposit down on a horse which the dealer then promptly sold to someone else. I went to small claims to recover the deposit, won the case but the dealer moved around a bit, had no assets, went to prison then scooted off back to Southern Ireland when released. Wonder if it was the same person?
mariew said:
All the comments about not trying to return and instead work with what you have or sorting the horse out just enables the dodgy dealers to keep in dodgy dealing and making a mint at the back of it. If people don't fight back it will never change. No matter how naive, just because someone bought unseen doesn't legitimise a dealer punting on a broken or unsuitable horse. Yes the horse sadly suffers in the middle but it isn't the buyer's fault and shouldn't be their problem.
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I agree, the buyer should go to small claims, it's not hard and you can file on line. if nothing else you can post the outcome on dodgy dealer pages to warn others. The problem is, getting the money back is difficult, there are dealers with multiple ccj's against them who pay a few quid a month then stop. It's expensive sending the bailiffs in and these people are experts in having anything that can be seized held in a relatives name. In the meantime, there's a horse who sounds like he is very much in distress that the current owner doesn't think it's her responsibility to help and believes that the horse is just rude with no manners, not that he may have been abused and is frightened and scared.
 
I’d advise speaking with one of the specialist equine solicitors and then decide your course of action. I agree it doesn’t sound like the horse has been given much of a chance but if you talk to a solicitor then you can weigh up the pros and cons of giving the horse time against prejudicing any course of action you might.
 
OP I really feel for you. following the retirement of my New forest, who had been with me for 17 years, I found myself on the horse hunt. I only viewed one, a 7 year old Section D, lovely to ride and handle, did a vetting, 7 days later he turned up at the yard, and he was breathing fire. I was barged out of the stable, crashed to the ground on more than one occasion, he broke a handmade bridle, took the girth straps off his saddle. Suffered intense separation anxiety, even if one horse left the field, and he was left with the rest of the herd. Oh, did i mention at one point I couldnt even get a bridle on him! I refused to talk about him to hubby when i got home from the yard. And then we were asked to leave, he was disruptive because he was anxious, he travelled miles to get to me, faced with a new environment, new herd, he had been in a few homes previously. Took him to a showing yard, where he settled quickly,, and seemed more confident, and then we left to go back to a pointers yard, had been there before. I explained his behaviour, the owner just said, he will settle, dont stress. The following day, the anxious worried snorty welsh man was eating in the field with not a care in the world, he has never been happier, come to think of it , neither have I, hes a delight now, he just had to find his courage. Get the right people around you, get support. My instructor was an absolute saint through all of this, and helped us both.
 
mariew said:
All the comments about not trying to return and instead work with what you have or sorting the horse out just enables the dodgy dealers to keep in dodgy dealing and making a mint at the back of it. If people don't fight back it will never change. No matter how naive, just because someone bought unseen doesn't legitimise a dealer punting on a broken or unsuitable horse. Yes the horse sadly suffers in the middle but it isn't the buyer's fault and shouldn't be their problem.
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They dont care if you fight back. You dont get your money back, you just flush more away chasing it. They get this sort of thing daily. Its water off a ducks back. They know they arent paying it back so they couldnt care less.
 
supertramp said:
OP I really feel for you. following the retirement of my New forest, who had been with me for 17 years, I found myself on the horse hunt. I only viewed one, a 7 year old Section D, lovely to ride and handle, did a vetting, 7 days later he turned up at the yard, and he was breathing fire. I was barged out of the stable, crashed to the ground on more than one occasion, he broke a handmade bridle, took the girth straps off his saddle. Suffered intense separation anxiety, even if one horse left the field, and he was left with the rest of the herd. Oh, did i mention at one point I couldnt even get a bridle on him! I refused to talk about him to hubby when i got home from the yard. And then we were asked to leave, he was disruptive because he was anxious, he travelled miles to get to me, faced with a new environment, new herd, he had been in a few homes previously. Took him to a showing yard, where he settled quickly,, and seemed more confident, and then we left to go back to a pointers yard, had been there before. I explained his behaviour, the owner just said, he will settle, dont stress. The following day, the anxious worried snorty welsh man was eating in the field with not a care in the world, he has never been happier, come to think of it , neither have I, hes a delight now, he just had to find his courage. Get the right people around you, get support. My instructor was an absolute saint through all of this, and helped us both.
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I did have to promise my new YO that my 22 year old welsh I'd had for 10 years wouldn't continue to behave how he was the first week.. . . (he didn't, normal service soon resumed!)
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Unfortunately OP treated buying this horse like ordering a bicycle from Amazon, which could have been returned for a refund. And I would feel sorry for her being the victim of a dodgy dealer except that she still seems to be dealing with the horse as she would a bike.

OP, the poor horse is now your responsibility, whatever you decide to do in the future. He deserves the very best of care while he is with you, which might make up a little for what he has been through recently.
Although I wouldn't recommend your yard to anyone I also wouldn't move him just now. Leave him to settle, as his surroundings become more familiar, give him some turnout, get the vet back to look at him when he hasn't been shut up.for days and take it from there. Good luck!
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I agree this does seem to be the problem, he is not a bike, a motor bike or a car. No way can one predict the behaviour of a horse in it's new home. Far easier with a bike. He may well have had excellent stable manners in his old home. He may also have had lots of turn out and have been handled by experienced people.
From the pics he simply looks lost and clearly is a horse who needs a leader. It is your job to step up to that.

However much you pay out to get your money back this seems unlikely to happen. You may be in the right but it is hard getting blood out of a stone. I think you have to ask yourself that although you may be in the right how realistic is it that it will happen. In the meantime if you decide to pursue it what are you going to do with him? keep him and pay livery, or send him back and you will never hear from them again.

If you can't afford sales livery at £250 pw then the cheapest thing to do may be to turn him out (not on too much grass you don't want laminitis) and then get him assessed. Don't let people near him and just leave him alone. There are many experienced people who could spend a couple of hours with him and give you a very good idea about his behaviour. It may only take a bit of instruction to get you handling him confidently. It wouldn't cost a fortune and you would have a very good idea as to how to progress.It may be that once he is allowed to settle down and get some confidence in a handler he becomes an easy horse to handle. If someone came to handle him for you and he was safe would you consider learning from them?

I am not defending this dealer in any way, clearly there are problems with them. However if you sell a horse who you have found very easy to handle and within a few days the new buyer tells you it is dangerous in the stable and to handle it must be difficult. I'm afraid we hear that all the time on here.

I'm afraid you have a living being, he is scared and who can blame him. He needs someone to make friends with him and become his leader. Can you not step up? Just because your previous horse behaved in one way and was easy doesn't mean another one will be. You will have to work at it, you can't just climb on your new bike and expect it go do exactly as the manual says. However you could also end up with a really nice horse. He is nice, he doesn't look to be a difficult or nasty horse I think you just need a bit of experienced help to get you both going.
 
Kaylum said:
I take it he is being quarantined at the moment or hope so.

They buy from Clitheroe auctions. You will not get your money back and if you return you will get another one from the auctions. They just sit for the photo and sell. Well known for it.
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I wonder if that was the same auction as the two heavies with issues that are being crowd funded for by a trekking centre came from? Right part of the country.
 
supertramp said:
They certainly have their own agenda!😂
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It would have been a lot more worrisome to me had he been my new unknown horse! and overall he was pretty horizontal for a welsh in normal service.

The next time he went somewhere else he got chucked in a field with 2 emus for a week, that made him more appreciative 😂.

Even though not welsh it does seem like this one is mostly just doing cob things, ie I'm shit scared and want to remove myself from the situation and the best way to do that is to go through things. That's not unhelpable.
 
ester said:
It would have been a lot more worrisome to me had he been my new unknown horse! and overall he was pretty horizontal for a welsh in normal service.

The next time he went somewhere else he got chucked in a field with 2 emus for a week, that made him more appreciative 😂.

Even though not welsh it does seem like this one is mostly just doing cob things, ie I'm shit scared and want to remove myself from the situation and the best way to do that is to go through things. That's not unhelpable.
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Couldnt agree more, once Reg had some structure, and was able to feel safe he became far easier, hasnt barged me for a good 18 months, can leave stable door open and hes happy to wait.
 
ester said:
ie I'm shit scared and want to remove myself from the situation and the best way to do that is to go through things.
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Very good point, I have had a couple of cob types that seem to go through this delightful stage at around about 7, much like a child's terrible twos. Absolute gents from backing up until the 7 year range, then wham bam I am very strong, I don't want to be here/do this....watch this! 😅
 
I posted on here a few weeks back about our new pony.

She arrived and seemed completely different from the pony we have viewed and tried.

I was so upset and panicking and wondering what the hell we had bought.

She had been living out and we had her in a stable, she had come into season and seemed wild.

She has settled and is back to being the pony we tried.

I completely understand that you want to return him but I think unfortunately for you that isn't going to give the resolution you want or are entitled to (a refund). Devine cobs have a terrible rep and you might find you end up with no horse and no refund.

As others have said you might find that even if you go to court and 'win' you can't enforce the debt to get you money back.

Our pony completely transformed when she was turned out overnight so hopefully with some correct management things might calm down for you a bit.

Can I ask why did you buy him unseen and unvetted?

I think that unfortunately so many people believe that you have more rights which is true on paper but hard to enforce in practice.
 
I would like to point out a couple of things. Firstly I bought unseen as I don't travel well, I have health issues, and most horses for sale don't seem to be close enough for me to travel. Secondly I am not an expert and still learning. I relied on the yard owner to check out the ad and the videos of this horse and was told he looked nice. They are more experienced than me obviously. So I have been let down by them and the seller. I have a degenerative condition which means I might not be able to ride for as long as most people that's one reason why I wanted a horse to be good to go. So I am in a very depressed state and getting flack from some people here with no sympathy and understanding. I bought myself this horse out of money left me by my parents after they died. I have enough money to take care of a horse but not loads to be able to pay for training I never expected to have to do.
 
I think it's very unfair to blame the yard owner for simply saying that they thought the horse looked nice 😬

The horse does look nice...

That said, I'm sorry to hear you're feeling down.

You may wish to reach out to friends or family for support, or consider a charity, like Samaritans.
 
This is why paying people to view horses is a thing, or you could have sent a vet for a vetting there as a minimum. But what's done is done, to be fair to the horse I would at least give it the chance to settle to see what you actually have rather than the stressed creature who has had god knows what happen in recent months. Then you can make a decision whether to sell or keep.

I don't really think the YO has let you down they could only go on the information provided, and if the seller wasn't local and they arent on the internet they weren't to know how dodgy they were more than you did. They maybe should have mentioned that you weren't going to be getting a geniune safe as houses, sound horse for £5k but again that depends how much they pay attention to the market.
 
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