Bought wrong horse

joeanne said:
This horse isnt lunging, kicking and rearing though!
Its started with mouthing, progressed to nipping and now taking lumps out of his owner.
Ruling out there is nothing going on in his mouth (which COULD be pain related and the biting is a relief thing much like a teething baby) then its easy to cure.
NO treats, short sharp telling off when he does it, and consistancy to show him that he is not top of the herd!
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Mine started out just biting and it got worse and worse. I am saying you can't just say it's necessarily a dominance thing or something in the mouth. A sore mouth would not imo make a horse bite, chew maybe.
OP says he is lunging and lifting front legs - that imo is aggressive.
 
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amber22 said:
Just feeding calm & condition with chaff - the same as he was on when I bought him. Only change in feeding is that he is on a bit more grass now I think. Out 24 hours, with about an hours easy work a day.
The scarey thing is the sudden change in behaviour after about 9 days. His whole character seems to have altered.
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The grass has grown, we've had a fresh rain fall and a cold snap after warm weather (if you're anywhere near me). This has caused a change in most horses. If he's not been out 24/7 and now is that's a fairly huge factor!
Why is he being fed? Does he actually need it if he's out 24/7? Or does he need the amount he's on?

He's in a new place, new owners, new horses, fresh grass and now he's testing his luck. Put him in place and let him settle.

Pan
 
amber22 said:
I had him vetted, teeth are fine. Just feeding calm & condition with chaff - the same as he was on when I bought him. Only change in feeding is that he is on a bit more grass now I think. Out 24 hours, with about an hours easy work a day.
The scarey thing is the sudden change in behaviour after about 9 days. His whole character seems to have altered. He is lunging, biting and lifting front legs now when in first week it was only baby mouthing/nipping and not same thing at all. And yes I am scared of him now when 3 days ago I would have said he was a lovely affectionate horse.
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But the thing is, you let him away with the nipping, you backed down which made him the leader. Now he will be trying to see what else he can get away with. You should've addressed the problem when he started nipping, to stop this behaviour getting any more serious (which it now has)

Find a local RI and ask them to help you, I think a ground work lesson would really help. It will help you with your confidence and the RI can give you some ideas and tips in how to gain back the leadership role. Good luck
 
The problem is if OP is scared of him, then he may up the ante and start messing about under saddle too. The last thing OP needs is a nasty fall. So its not so easy to just increase his work/decrease his feed etc. And every time he gets away with bad behaviour it re-inforces to him he can, and re-inforces to her he is scary.
 
It seems to me you've got three options:
One - assume it might be some hidden pain thing and get the vets out to look at him. Also talk to his ex owners to see what they say.
Two - get some very expericned to try and work with him.
Three - get on top of it yourself. i am probably about to get crucified for this but Hovis went through a nipping stage. After a couple of attempts at verbally scolding him I slapped him. Hard. Across the muzzle. The noise was worse than anything else and he looked utterly stunned i'd dared to hit him. He didn't do it again. Occasionally he gets a little enthusiastic when grooming me and he gets a stern "AH". Its usually enough but he'd get a smack again if he didn't heed the warning.

They will push and push and push their boundaries so that could be why hes escalating his behaviour. If you don't stop it it will become a behavioural issue. The rescue centre i give the profits of my books to, have a shire cross who hubby has helped with. He's a rude, bargy 10 year old brick wall of muscle. Why? Because hes been allowed to be. (Before anyone says anything about it being because he was neglected - he wasn't he was born there)
His favourite trick was to walk right through you whilst you were washing his legs - Hubby put him in his box a few times and hey presto he doesn't do it now. It helps hubby is 6ft and an ex rugby player so is more physically intimidating, but the horse needed to know its boundaries.

I'm afraid my money is on him taking the pee.
 
Hovis_and_SidsMum said:
i am probably about to get crucified for this but Hovis went through a nipping stage. After a couple of attempts at verbally scolding him I slapped him. Hard. Across the muzzle. The noise was worse than anything else and he looked utterly stunned i'd dared to hit him. He didn't do it again.
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No crucifying from me.......its the reason you have a well behaved horse that doesn't try to remove parts of your person!
 
This horse is just trying to sort out his place in the pecking order. You need to asset yourself so that you are above him in the herd, so to speak. He needs to accept you as leader. Hovis and Sid's mum has given good advice.As with all horses "Don't LET him do that". ( as it says in someones signature ).
 
joeanne said:
No crucifying from me.......its the reason you have a well behaved horse that doesn't try to remove parts of your person!
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I never condone hitting a horse for things that can be corrected easily other ways or when they've not had the work put in. I hate the terms 'beat the ***** out of' and 'slapped across the face' because to me it's about the bravado of the act and horrible.

For a dangerous behaviour being corrected, as long as done with good timing so the horse knows why it's being punished then I think it's fine. It shouldn't be the norm, but they're bloody big animals to let behave badly.

Pan
 
joeanne said:
No crucifying from me.......its the reason you have a well behaved horse that doesn't try to remove parts of your person!
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I agree but walloping your horse across the nose like a glaswegian fish wife isn't usually advocated by the horse behaviourists!
I'm afraid though I wont tolerate it from Hovis and I didn't from Sid or Omar either - they're too big to take the mick.
If verbally scolding works - great, I'm all for it. Failing that its the business end of the leadrope, a stick or my hand.

Someone call Horseline for Hovis.............

Edited to add I mean a swift well timed smack not a beating
 
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I have been bitten and run down by a homebred mare in the past, and we are not talking taking the mickey here.

All I was doing was bringing her in and she planted herself. After gentle persuasion didn't work she had the end of the lead rope down her shoulder and it was at this 'point blank range' that she attacked. That was really frightening and I can sympathise with the OP as mine was only 14.2hh.

A horse is a big animal if it wants to pick a fight, and it will win if determined enough, therefore, if he is actually attacking, I would get some professional help ASAP. After 9 days he is feeling a bit more settled and is trying to lay the law down.

I would be frightened too.
 
PandorasJar said:
I never condone hitting a horse for things that can be corrected easily other ways or when they've not had the work put in. I hate the terms 'beat the ***** out of' and 'slapped across the face' because to me it's about the bravado of the act and horrible.
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I dont condone BEATING a horse but i'm sorry if a horse bit me it would get what for........just as it would if it tried that with another horse out in the field!
Another horse wont say "please dont do that again, it was a tad impolite"
What that horse will do is lunge straight back, teeth bared and put the upsurper in his place if that horse is lower in the ranks.
 
Hollycatt said:
I have seen some very experienced, very competent riders frightened. People that compete and win at PSG with their quiet schoolmasters but are unable to handle difficult horses and ride nothing under about 10 years! It is nothing to be ashamed of. Riding is supposed to be fun and we all have different skills and requirements.

I agree it does sound like he is trying his luck. If he is shire x then he is probably a big, strong lad. I think you need your daughter to come and help nip this in the bud right away. If he is the type that tries it on in a NASTY way (and it sounds nasty) and if you are frightened, this may be an ongoing problem if he realises he scares you. He may not bother trying it with your daughter if she is not scared. It depends on whether you are willing to take time to work on it. There are so many lovely horses out there that would not dream of doing this sort of thing, in some ways why waste your time? Although I think it is a bit soon to think about quitting, what is the point of owning a horse you are frightened of and don't want to see? Both horse and owner can be unhappy in such a situation when a new home for him and a new horse for her may work out best.
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Probably the most sensible post on here!

I have been around horses for over 35 years, worked with horses, got my AI etc, and I have met horses that scared the **** out of me and didn't play by the "normal rules". Horses are not all robots that respond exactly the same to the way we handle them. Some misbehave for pain, some for bolshyness, some because they are scared, and one or two of them are just absolute gits!

We have a big draught cross that is young (they really dont mature until 8 either!) and he would nip as you led him to the field. He was almost in a trance and didn't really know he was doing it. It was a "lets play" nip of excitement at going out, and would be worse if he had not been out for a few days (came with chronic mudrash, which didn't help..). Whatever we did, he could not be got out of the habit. If we stopped too much on the lane he would "grow" in height in a dominant stance. It took well over a year to sort this problem, and he will still do it once in a blue moon even now. I would never have let anyone novice lead this horse down the road (never the grooms) as he was a huge strong thing that really didn't need to learn that he could pull people about. Only myself and my husband would lead him. This horse was also a very sweet horse 90% of the time, and had no pain, back or teeth issues etc. He was just being a teenager and testing boundries. So I can fully understand where OP is coming from.. The fact that this horse is new and unsettled will only aggrivate the situation..

I second leading him in a bridle. A grazing muzzle under the headcollar helped for us - he couldn't physically bite. Lots of groundwork - stopping starting, trotting, stopping, turning, going back up the lane, down again etc helped with ours, but you need someone confident doing this. Bringing him in with company helped too. See if you can get your instructor or YO to help you with this. I'm not going to start criticising your or your daughter's experience - it just isn't enough at the moment to handle this situation. Anyone who has never been scared around horses at some point is either very lucky or lying! Facing that and getting help is half the battle..
 
Is there a chance this delightful creature is a rig? What with new grass ,new home one of these qurky creatures would become dangerous. Quite honestlt a horse is supposed to be a pleasure,this one clearly is not,there are lots of very nice honest horses out there ..so get rid before your body and nerve are damaged.
 
amber22 said:
I had him vetted, teeth are fine. Just feeding calm & condition with chaff - the same as he was on when I bought him. Only change in feeding is that he is on a bit more grass now I think. Out 24 hours, with about an hours easy work a day.
The scarey thing is the sudden change in behaviour after about 9 days. His whole character seems to have altered. He is lunging, biting and lifting front legs now when in first week it was only baby mouthing/nipping and not same thing at all. And yes I am scared of him now when 3 days ago I would have said he was a lovely affectionate horse.
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that sounds like a horse in pain, so get him checked.

IME though many ex-RS horses are nippy, it's their way of protesting. They know who they can get away with it with.
 
I think a short sharp smack is fine in a situation where you know the horse is taking the p - but you have to be quick when you do it so that the horse associates it with the bad behaviour. I've known occasions where just that one smack is enough - better that than allowing things to escalate and someone really getting hurt. They are too big and potentially too dangerous as animals to be allowed to think that they can be in charge, obviously it's better if you can get the point across to them by other means but sometimes a quick bit of shock treatment does the trick.
 
I am in W. Hants.

Thanks everyone for the helpful posts esp Honey & Hollycatt who have made me feel better.
 
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Honey08 said:
Anyone who has never been scared around horses at some point is either very lucky or lying! Facing that and getting help is half the battle..
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Have to agree with Honey. I am an old bird now, but in my late teens rode many difficult/downright dangerous horses, from bolshy stallions, newly backed babies to GP horses. And the GP horses were often the most scary - very fit, fed to the hilt, no turnout and explosive if you so much as shifted your weight wrong. Not to mention the explosion from the owner if you fell off :eek:

Now, all I want is a polite, respectful horse that every time I visit I come home with a huge grin on my face. I don't want rearing, biting, bucking etc etc. Babies get a bit of latitude but a bad attitude is not optional. Not all of us want to deal with problems.

I feel for OP. A new horse is supposed to be a time of excitement and fun. Of forging a relationship and starting to trust your new equine partner. Not being scared and feeling you have made a mistake. Yes, horses are individuals and we all have bad times with them, but some things are not negociable. If you do not have the confidence to deal with this type of behaviour ownership becomes a chore and for me anyway, that's not what it is about.

Good luck whatever you deceide OP
 
Having had a confirmed biter, I dealt with the problem by purchasing a small plastic water pistol and giving him a squirt on the nose when he tried to bite, it soon stopped him!You have to be quick though the instant he tries to bite
 
Short term - wear a hat and body protector when you are leading him and fix a bucket muzzle to his headcollar. That will act as damage limitation.

Longer term you are going to have to accept that, assuming no major pain issues, you have one of equine life's dominant characters that will always test the boundaries. You need to become herd leader and regain his respect.

Personally I think you may need to take him on. If he comes at you, even for a nibble, go back at him big style. This is where blue pipe is handy, one big swishy swipe across the chest and some agressive backing up led by you. You aren't going to hurt a shire x doing that but you do have to take charge of the situation.
 
I reckon I'd agree with ihatework...

He does need to be put in his place though... naughty nipping of humans is not ok! Other horses, fine.
 
Hi there, don't lose heart. I took on a new horse in November. I'd known this horse for years before I had got him from a friend who was moving to Oz. He almost scared me he was so well mannered - or so I thought! First 2 weeks were foot perfect, then he started to prat about bringing in and turning out and it got to the point one day where he got so silly coming in he knocked me over. I've had horses for years and worked as a stud hand on a TB stud dealing with stallions and colts and no horse has EVER knocked me off my feet before! It scared the crap out of me! I quickly enlisted the help of a friend who specialises in groundwork issues leading/tying up/loading/clipping etc. After just one session with him it was tons better and the horse hardly ever gets daft now and if he does I know how to deal with it and he doesn't get on top of me, I feel so much more confident leading him about now. The horse also now leads a couple of feet away from me, rather than in my pocket, so we've both got a bit of space. I emailed his owner about it and she laughed her socks off. She said he's never done anything like that with her but if they had a new groom at their place (professional dressage yard - my horse was the yard nanny!) Roo would often test them out on the way in from the field! I do think moving house really unsettles even the most level headed horses which leaves them feeling a bit vulnerable and if we then don't show them the leadership they need it can lead to some rather unpleasant behaviour sometimes. You will be able to get him through this, he sounds otherwise like a super lad, but I totally understand how something like this can make all the good stuff seem pretty insignificant!

I can put you in touch with this guy if you need me to, he is based in Oxfordshire - not sure how much he'd charge to come to you though as its a bit far.

Best wishes.
 
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Hello

I'm also in Hampshire, I have a very good instructor that would be great for helping you with this (although I'm sure you already have one!). She is great at assessing horse for pain (she helped us loads).

I would be inclined to think it might be pain, has he been ridden since you got him?

We experienced very similar with a mare that had terrible back pain. I also have 20 years experience but that still does not mean I like to handle BIG horses that turn nasty! not something I'm great with!

The mare was always friendly, then as we brought her into more work she got back pain which she associated with us, I was terrified to go anywhere near her for a while! She is thankfully fine now and as cuddly as ever!

There is a chance it might be him asserting himself but I'm not qualified to say based on what you describe.

I think the post suggesting a call to previous owners would be useful. Is he upset with new surroundings? was he out 24/7 before to bought him? Could he live out and see if that helps?

Hope some of this is helpful, there were some sharp comments on this thread that shocked me, you came on asking here asking for help and were slated for having no experience! harsh!

PM me if you want instructor details.

Good luck whatever you decide.
 
I will probably get shot for saying this as it isn't very fluffy, but if it were my horse provided I knew it wasn't pain related I would give him a hard smack and a telling off if he tried it. My boy tried testing the boundaries soon after I got him and I'm afraid he got a good hard smack and a very stern and lound 'no'. I looked him right in the eye and walked towards him to make him back away much as a more dominant horse in a herd would.

Don't get me wrong, I don't go around beating horses (I don't even carry a whip to ride generally), but horses will try it on to establish where they stand in the herd compared to you, and they are too big and potentially dangerous to take any nonsense from. The point isn't to hurt them, but to act as another horse would if they tried to assert their dominance inappropriately. Funnily enough he only tried it twice and has been good as gold since ;) :D
 
Is he out with mares? I bought a 2 yr old 2 months ago and he's recently started doing the same thing! He's been bossed about by the mares but now he is getting bitey with one of the mares, he's trying it on with my old mare but she is the boss and isnt having any of it! the young mare that he is getting away with biting is in season at the moment and i wonder if that is why he's sudden gone like that? and now he knows he can get away with it with her, he is trying to do it with me!

I completely feel your pain, every time he goes to put his head near me, i think hes going to bite me! and pushing his face away makes it seem all the more fun for him?
 
ghostie said:
I will probably get shot for saying this as it isn't very fluffy, but if it were my horse provided I knew it wasn't pain related I would give him a hard smack and a telling off if he tried it. My boy tried testing the boundaries soon after I got him and I'm afraid he got a good hard smack and a very stern and lound 'no'. I looked him right in the eye and walked towards him to make him back away much as a more dominant horse in a herd would.

Don't get me wrong, I don't go around beating horses (I don't even carry a whip to ride generally), but horses will try it on to establish where they stand in the herd compared to you, and they are too big and potentially dangerous to take any nonsense from. The point isn't to hurt them, but to act as another horse would if they tried to assert their dominance inappropriately. Funnily enough he only tried it twice and has been good as gold since ;) :D
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YES YES YES! ^^^
He is trying to dominate you - testing the boundaries.
You have to behave with him the way another horse would. My late horse (God bless him) tried this on with me when I first got him (he was the dominant one in the herd).
Every time he tried to bite - within seconds I would rush at him, teeth bared and make him move away from me.
It took me doing this twice ....he never tried to bite me or anyone else after that. In fact he would follow me everywhere like a dog. He saw me as being dominant over him.
Show him his place in the herd! ie: Below you!
Get someone more confident to help you with this if you are too worried.
Have heart and nip this in the bud now (s'cuse the pun!) :D:D
 
Always Henesy said:
YES YES YES! ^^^
He is trying to dominate you - testing the boundaries.
You have to behave with him the way another horse would. My late horse (God bless him) tried this on with me when I first got him (he was the dominant one in the herd).
Every time he tried to bite - within seconds I would rush at him, teeth bared and make him move away from me.
It took me doing this twice ....he never tried to bite me or anyone else after that. In fact he would follow me everywhere like a dog. He saw me as being dominant over him.
Show him his place in the herd! ie: Below you!
Get someone more confident to help you with this if you are too worried.
Have heart and nip this in the bud now (s'cuse the pun!) :D:D
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Forgot to say......if all else fails......I'll have him :D:D:D:D
 
I've always found that seeking external help from someone with more knowledge (which isnt difficult!) than me can work wonders....they can observe and advise first hand. Good luck with whatever you decide to do :)
 
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