Box Rest - Advice Please

[TheMule]

ET, you seem to be going around in circles and have been for months. All your asking for advice threads end up the same way.
Your mare is lame, likely in multiple limbs. IMO she's not moved comfortably for years. She may seem happy, but that is likely because consistent low level pain is her "norm". I applaud you for trying to figure out ways to help her, but you're up against a brick wall if you are unwilling (or can't) spend the money looking into it. I understand that is your situation! But sadly you need to come to terms with the fact that it is not ethical to continue to use her as a riding horse in this state.

Your vet has suggested box rest, because that is their standard treatment advice for owners unwilling/unable to do further diagnostics on the horse. Rest can improve acute tendon/ligament/muscle issues, so that is covered. What else can they do? Vets don't have xray vision, as much as we would like them to have! For what it's worth, I would not box rest a horse like this with confirmed arthritis probably progressed), I would chuck her out in a field to live her days and monitor her comfort levels as appropriate if unwilling to investigate further.

I understand money is an issue, but there are ways around this. You can discuss payment plans, 0% credit cards, you can throw her out for a year and save up. Supplements/chiro/massage/magnetic wraps (though they have their place) is throwing away money you could spend on basic diagnostics and pain relief for this horse.

I really understand your dilemma, I have been there. Not knowing what is wrong and dithering around trying things and getting 24235 different opinions WILL drive you crazy, it certainly did to me!

Perfect post- OP would be wise to take this advice

 

[Ellietotz]

Sorry everyone. I know I'm going round in circles.
I just don't 100% believe that she is in pain, the vet believed it was structural and structural lameness doesn't necessarily mean it hurts does it? I don't have an issue retiring, truly so I'm not doing it for selfish reasons. I just don't feel she is really ready to retire completely yet either and what I just cannot understand is if her back xrays were clear, her hind leg xrays were clear, the ultrasound scans on her legs were clear and the SI joint injection showed no effect, then what could it possibly be if not purely structural? That's what keeps going round in my head and I usually know when something is genuinely hurting or upsetting her, she doesn't hide it. I also did her hamstring stretches tonight with no issues at all.
It could still be an issue with her SI joint despite the injections not making any difference but this would need work, although I don't think at this point in her life I can train it out of her, she's just got used to moving that way. I don't know what else you could scan around that area that would show anything.
I am not unwilling to pay anything. I have just paid off one credit card that I had to take out for her vet bills, I am still paying off the other one due to her vet bills and physio that wasn't covered on the insurance plus issues with car breaking down etc that I cant add anymore to and I cant get accepted for a new one, I have tried, so when I say I cant financially do it, I really cannot get anymore money from anything. I am certainly not unwilling though. I would spend every single penny on this mare if I had it. I worship the ground she walks on.

 

[ester]

Structural where/how though given that she only has arthritis in a low motion joint?

I'm totally clear if you scan me, I am in daily constant pain which improves sometimes, and flares significantly at other times. My movement is affected as a result, but current diagnostics (MRI+investigative SI injection+denerving+muscle injection) say I should be fine.

(Just to add I would accept structural if 1) you could see joint fusion/similar, 2) it wasn't affecting multiple limbs).

 

[TPO]

Echo Northern and The Mule.

I'm presuming that you bought unvetted. Your base line of "normal/ok" has been squewed because you've accepted how she was when she arrived as sound.

I've had a horse with a mechanical lameness from a previously fractured pelvis, and other issues, so one of my main concerns was getting the baseline for "ok" wrong and missing something with him. My vet knew/knows he can be honest with me as the horse 100% comes first over my feelings.

Im sorry to that your horse looks lame and uncomfortable in every clip that you've posted. Horses as a prey animal try not to show pain.

I appreciate these aren't the responses that you would have wanted and that it is hard to accept.

Even if you had the money available she has been this way for at least the time that you've owned her and if there was an easy or quick way to diagnosis and/or treat I'm sure your vet would have suggested it. Sometimes throwing money at a problem doesnt fix it either; been there too.

I'd suggest speaking to your vet and let them know the reasons that you aren't comfortable with box rest. I'd try not to let my emotions colour my judgement and ask the vet about continuing low level hacking (if it was me I wouldn't be riding her at all).

I'd also ask for advice re the bute trial. If whatever dose you tried didnt have any impact at all I'd speak to the vet about trialling a higher dose. At the right dose it should make a change; I'd keep her on that dose (with vet advice) so that she was comfortable in the field for retirement.

I know this isn't the kind of post that you want in reply. I know that you are clutching at straws and want an answer or to continue as is. It is hard when there are "lamer horses doing more"; trust me I've been there but I couldnt put my wants above my horse's welfare. It's not fair but very few things are.

Anyway I've said my piece, I've had a horse that no one could diagnose so I can empathise with your situation. I've been on livery where much lamer horses were out competing and what not. I've been "encouraged" to "ride him anyway" by those same people and assured that it would be "fine". I found it easy to ignore them but it is wearing when you are already stressed and if you want to continue it is a big dangling carrot.

 

[ester]

Ellie was this the mare that came from your yard owner that may/may not have had an accident or am I confusing you with someone else (it's friday sorry!)

 

[doodle]

I’m sorry but I am another who thinks she is lame and always has been. Just her stride length is worrying. She looks sore everywhere. I understand you don’t want to do more diagnostics but I would stop riding her, increase her level of bute and see how that goes. You say she dosnt seem in pain but from those videos I’m sorry to say but she DOES look like she is in pain.

 

[Tiddlypom]

The trailer accident rings a bell. Is she the horse you are concerned about in this thread from 2016, OP? You didn’t own her at the time, but you were concerned about her.

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/possible-psychological-issues-advice-please.724212/

 

[Ellietotz]

Ellie was this the mare that came from your yard owner that may/may not have had an accident or am I confusing you with someone else (it's friday sorry!)

Yes, she was gifted to me from the YO. She had a freak accident as a yearling in a trailer where I was told she just went mental and got stuck over the bar, despises travelling now so avoided at all costs if you can get her to load in the first place. They also trained her to drive but her first time going down hill caused her to bolt into a fence too, not sure on age at this point, maybe 5 and at another point when being led off another horse I think, around the same age, a car failed to give enough space and ran over both hind pasterns. I'm not sure at what point she started resenting being ridden, bucking, refusing to go and just bronking so she just got turned out for 5 years after trying a professional too who apparently just said she was dangerous as she tried attacking a car, she also had physio too to see if it helped. So she spent those years getting very fat, then went to a loan home as a project for a couple of months but came back extremely skinny. I then took her on, my first ride on her was in the first clip on the video from 5 years a go but I always felt something was making her unhappy as she had ulcer symptoms. Had her scoped and she did have grade 3 ulcers. They healed within a month of treatment but still followed it on with the weaning off period. Had lots of physio, saddle fitters etc, she was loads better after treating the ulcers but I was always conscious with how she moves. She has never shown aggression towards cars mind, she's actually fine with traffic. YO bred her and I'm told she has never moved any differently, she has had her her entire life and her gait has always been this way. Then all the way up until now, I've carried on with regular physio, saddle checks, pssm treatment but her gait has always been weird to me but I've seen her show pain for everything else, even a mild saddle issue but she just doesn't exhibit what I would imagine a lame horse to other than the short striding I guess. When I've put her in a track to free jump, I wander off to start putting a few up and she starts on her own, you cant get her to stop and she is incredibly scopey as well, she has no trouble or discomfort or reluctance to fly over everything or gallop at her own accord. I would imagine a bilaterally lame horse or something in pain to not want to move at all, struggle to get up or trot etc, ears back or looking uncomfortable when doing so. She just doesn't come across like she is in pain to me and when she has been in pain, she wouldn't be caught, she wouldn't stand still to be tacked up, she would try biting when I brushed or squealed. I had her ovaries checked too. I feel I have done so much for her and I've spent most of my ownership just worrying!
Sorry, long post but that's her entire history that I know of really!

ETA: Bearing in mind, people were commenting how much better she looked and was entirely different in the videos I posted of her post exercise. She moves like this when she really isn't being lazy.

 

[Ellietotz]

I’m sorry but I am another who thinks she is lame and always has been. Just her stride length is worrying. She looks sore everywhere. I understand you don’t want to do more diagnostics but I would stop riding her, increase her level of bute and see how that goes. You say she dosnt seem in pain but from those videos I’m sorry to say but she DOES look like she is in pain.

Wouldn't her muscles be tight/solid and sore if she was though? She's been on higher levels of bute before too, she still moves exactly the same way.

 

[Ellietotz]

Structural where/how though given that she only has arthritis in a low motion joint?

I'm totally clear if you scan me, I am in daily constant pain which improves sometimes, and flares significantly at other times. My movement is affected as a result, but current diagnostics (MRI+investigative SI injection+denerving+muscle injection) say I should be fine.

(Just to add I would accept structural if 1) you could see joint fusion/similar, 2) it wasn't affecting multiple limbs).

To me, I understood structural as just not being designed to naturally move in the conventional way. The same way a person might walk with a bounce or sticking their bottom out naturally but not meaning there is something wrong, just how they're built.
When the vet did the work up, he genuinely wasn't sure if there was actually something wrong as it's so mild and just looks like it's how she moves. With the fact I've done all the other scans etc in mind.

 

[ester]

Thanks for confirming, I thought so but didn't want to have it totally wrong. I can remember having conversations back then as YO wouldn't have anything checked then when you had properly acquired her at least you could start looking into stuff- and you absolutely have done.

Re the pain reactions, I think it's really difficult to know, my chronic pain is so constant I don't visibly react to it (or mentally a lot of the time) and moving is better for me. If another part of my body hurts it's an entirely different story.

I guess I don't think she is built in a particularly extraordinary way that should make her move so differently to the norm. I do know she moved quite differently in those other videos too so she presents 2 quite different pictures.

 

[TheMule]

I would want another vet- to say that this is a mild lameness is almost unbelievable. She swishes her tail the whole time and is reluctant to move forward, she is noticeably lamer at times on one hind than the other, she is displaying diagonal lameness too.
It sounds like something very early in her life caused this compromise and she didn’t really have much of a chance. Horses bronc and panic when you ride them because of pain.

 

[doodle]

Wouldn't her muscles be tight/solid and sore if she was though? She's been on higher levels of bute before too, she still moves exactly the same way.

No. Robin is lame both back legs quite badly. His muscles are fine having been checked by 3 people including the vet.

 

[Ellietotz]

I would want another vet- to say that this is a mild lameness is almost unbelievable. She swishes her tail the whole time and is reluctant to move forward, she is noticeably lamer at times on one hind than the other, she is displaying diagonal lameness too.
It sounds like something very early in her life caused this compromise and she didn’t really have much of a chance. Horses bronc and panic when you ride them because of pain.

She hasn't ever bronked or bucked with me, always been fine to hack on her own and in company.
She is also an extremely itchy horse as I've posted about this before, even putting a saddle pad on her it's being twitched off and is on her bottom by the time I come back with the saddle, the tail swishing is worse when she is moulting but only when she has something against her skin. It doesn't swish much, if at all, in the videos of her freeschooling with nothing on her but she does in the video with the pessoa on.
The first vet who did the xrays, ultrasound scans and injected the SI ended up putting it down to behavioural, which is why I ended up in a huge argument with them because why would he think the SI needed injecting if he didn't think that was the issue. The second vet who gave me the second opinion did believe it was the SI joint at the time. So I suppose that despite the injections not working, it could still be an issue. I recall that he did say upon palpating when he came out recently that she did have reaction with the SI. It was never scanned though as the previous vet said it was too complicated and easier to just go straight in to inject. I wish I knew the dates I had it done to see if I had any videos of her around that time to compare with. I'm sure it didn't make any changes but I'm going to have a search now. I've had several physios too, most via vet recommendation, they've never pointed out anything serious with her gait either, just that it is short and she is tight in the hamstring/over the SI. So perhaps it is still the SI, I'm not sure why I wrote it off now, the injections don't prove anything necessarily.

 

[Ellietotz]

Annoyingly, this is the only video I have near to the SI joint injection. 4 months after being done.

ETA: She does have the bunny hop canter, she has become disunited in canter too, she struggles to hold the back legs up for the farrier and she hates doing pelvic tucks. So perhaps she has been suffering from SI pain for years and years, that's probably why the injections didn't make a huge difference because it's just too late to treat and she's compensated for such a long time. It's odd because it doesn't stop her from galloping or wanting to jump but she's probably just got so used to it.

Sorry everyone, it just takes me a little time to get there and conclude it in my head.

 

[Ellietotz]

Unable to edit my last post to add that she also struggles to cross her back legs over in a circle. I just wonder why the vet didn't mention it again but perhaps he will after he sees the videos of her over the years. Maybe he will think the same in that she has had the SI problem for such a long time which is why the injections were unsuccessful. It's probably even arthritic there too.

 

[Ellietotz]

At least she isn't totally crippled having been barefoot for a week too.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Unable to edit my last post to add that she also struggles to cross her back legs over in a circle. I just wonder why the vet didn't mention it again but perhaps he will after he sees the videos of her over the years. Maybe he will think the same in that she has had the SI problem for such a long time which is why the injections were unsuccessful. It's probably even arthritic there too.

From this and your previous post I would now say that SI for me would be the culprit. Especially after reading about the trauma as a youngster.

SI is very very hard to treat, my sisters exracer SI went on him and we think it was related to a time he fell over backwards and was trapped in the starting stalls.
The steroids for him lasted six weeks before he went bad again.

The think is also they can look better when charging around the feild because adrenalin will flood her body an mask pain even low level

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

She hasn't ever bronked or bucked with me, always been fine to hack on her own and in company.
She is also an extremely itchy horse as I've posted about this before, even putting a saddle pad on her it's being twitched off and is on her bottom by the time I come back with the saddle, the tail swishing is worse when she is moulting but only when she has something against her skin. It doesn't swish much, if at all, in the videos of her freeschooling with nothing on her but she does in the video with the pessoa on.
The first vet who did the xrays, ultrasound scans and injected the SI ended up putting it down to behavioural, which is why I ended up in a huge argument with them because why would he think the SI needed injecting if he didn't think that was the issue. The second vet who gave me the second opinion did believe it was the SI joint at the time. So I suppose that despite the injections not working, it could still be an issue. I recall that he did say upon palpating when he came out recently that she did have reaction with the SI. It was never scanned though as the previous vet said it was too complicated and easier to just go straight in to inject. I wish I knew the dates I had it done to see if I had any videos of her around that time to compare with. I'm sure it didn't make any changes but I'm going to have a search now. I've had several physios too, most via vet recommendation, they've never pointed out anything serious with her gait either, just that it is short and she is tight in the hamstring/over the SI. So perhaps it is still the SI, I'm not sure why I wrote it off now, the injections don't prove anything necessarily.

Just as a last resort, I would want to find out why she is so itchy, what do you feed her on?
When I first found out about the mare who could not eat cereals or refined sugars and had become dangerous to handle because we kept feeding her on them, what alerted us to the problem was a magazine article about a horse that was lame and whose lameness cleared up when its diet was adjusted. I can relate to that, because when my diet includes things it really shouldn't, I get terrible nerve pain which can make me move very oddly. My mare had a much investigated and medicated cough which cleared up when we stopped feeding her the incorrect diet.

 

[Ellietotz]

From this and your previous post I would now say that SI for me would be the culprit. Especially after reading about the trauma as a youngster.

SI is very very hard to treat, my sisters exracer SI went on him and we think it was related to a time he fell over backwards and was trapped in the starting stalls.
The steroids for him lasted six weeks before he went bad again.

The think is also they can look better when charging around the feild because adrenalin will flood her body an mask pain even low level

I should have thought it over again sooner but I had written it off in my mind. It makes sense though. Both vets and all the physios have said she was always sore over the SI area when they've been out. It may have happened in her trailer accident as a yearling and is way too far gone, most likely arthritic but built up compensatory muscles around the area now perhaps as it's been this way for over 10 years.

All her symptoms for it are bunny hopping canter, short gait behind, snatches and reluctance to have back feet held up, can't cross back legs in tight circles, struggles to walk backwards in a straight line, can become disunited in canter, really hates when I've tried pelvic tucks.

I have always done in hand pole work to help strengthen and lots of hillwork but its just been too long to improve her way of going now. Probably why the YO says she's always moved that way too, because it started such a long time a go.

 

[Ellietotz]

Just as a last resort, I would want to find out why she is so itchy, what do you feed her on?
When I first found out about the mare who could not eat cereals or refined sugars and had become dangerous to handle because we kept feeding her on them, what alerted us to the problem was a magazine article about a horse that was lame and whose lameness cleared up when its diet was adjusted. I can relate to that, because when my diet includes things it really shouldn't, I get terrible nerve pain which can make me move very oddly. My mare had a much investigated and medicated cough which cleared up when we stopped feeding her the incorrect diet.

I have tried to figure it out, never found anything. I think I have two threads about it. She's been on multiple different feeds, from just grass nuts on their own or nothing at all and she's never been different. Last year we thought it was the yarrow in her field but there didn't seem to be any this year and she was the same. She's on a very small amount of copra, linseed and fast fibre now. I've even had blood tests to look into photosensitivity, her liver etc twice but nothing unfortunately!

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

That's a shame because if it is feed, that can be an easy win. Sadly it sounds as if YO should have been more responsible than to pass her on to you, after her early accidents/injuries.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

I should have thought it over again sooner but I had written it off in my mind. It makes sense though. Both vets and all the physios have said she was always sore over the SI area when they've been out. It may have happened in her trailer accident as a yearling and is way too far gone, most likely arthritic but built up compensatory muscles around the area now perhaps as it's been this way for over 10 years.

All her symptoms for it are bunny hopping canter, short gait behind, snatches and reluctance to have back feet held up, can't cross back legs in tight circles, struggles to walk backwards in a straight line, can become disunited in canter, really hates when I've tried pelvic tucks.

I have always done in hand pole work to help strengthen and lots of hillwork but its just been too long to improve her way of going now. Probably why the YO says she's always moved that way too, because it started such a long time a go.

Yes with all that above this will not be fixable. If she is happy in a feild hooleying about then do that.

The yo should not have passed her onto you knowing she had these traumas when she was young.

I'm really sorry

 

[Ellietotz]

That's a shame because if it is feed, that can be an easy win. Sadly it sounds as if YO should have been more responsible than to pass her on to you, after her early accidents/injuries.

I knew about them but I never thought about it affecting her like this now. So I'm partly to blame I guess.

 

[Ellietotz]

Yes with all that above this will not be fixable. If she is happy in a feild hooleying about then do that.

The yo should not have passed her onto you knowing she had these traumas when she was young.

I'm really sorry

Thats okay, I knew about her past but I never thought it would have caused a long term injury. I just wanted her to be happy.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I know of a horse who jumped a Grand Prix showjumping track a couple of weeks before she was diagnosed with having a 12kg ovary tumor which was surgically removed (and around the size of half a beachball) - so some horses just get on with things despite being uncomfortable, or they get used to being in 'x' amount of pain. They are taught that they have a job to do, and many prey animals will mask it and carry on.

I am very sorry that you are facing this but I am another who thinks that this is time for retirement on some sort of painkiller - she has never looked comfortable to me going from your video. There is a rare occasion when she seems to be adrenaline filled that she moves more fluidly, which would be another signal to me that she is usually in significant pain.