BP versus Bhopal

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Rollin

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In view of the continued aggression exhibited by the Wite House towards the CEO of BP, I thought I would compare this to Bhopal in which hundreds of people were killed.

390 tons of toxic chemicals remain abandoned and continue to contaminate water supplies.

The Indian Government asked for 3.3billion US and got 470 million US

The Chairman of Union Carbide was fined 2,000 US and sentenced to two years in prison as that was the maximum allowed under Indian Law.

Everyone who made a claim had to have a separate medical examination and make a seperate claim for compensation which of course took years. Will we see the same in the USA?

I wonder if President Obama now showing his concern for the environment (good for him) will now bring pressure on Dow who bought UC to clean up Bhopal?
 
Good points but as you state Obama can only bring pressure on the Indian Government to continue with the clean up, and ultimately keep Dow committed to the problem they inherited.

The situation in the USA is going to last years, maybe decades, not just in compensation claims but on a knock on effect from the spill and residue. This is very close to my heart as we lived on the Texas Gulf Coast for many years and we still have property there. My husband in the 1980's was in the oil industry and in charge of drilling operations for southeast Texas and southwest Louisiana for several years. The first thing he said when this well blew was that they had cut corners and his initial theory has been spot on.

We only see the news reports. Much gives the impression that the worst affected will be the devastation of wildlife, and tar on beaches. It goes far deeper than that. The seafood industry is crippled - the whole of the Gulf Coast is shrimping (think Bubba Grump), Oysters, and shellfish in general. Particularly from Galveston eastwards all long the LA, MISS, ALA, FLA coastline. It is a hard life with little profit in normal times for these fishing folks, now they have nothing. Connected are the seafood houses - processing and restaurants. Already these are closing in droves. P&J Oyster Co in New Orleans has closed after 134 years in business, just one of the masses shutting down who may never be able to get back ontheir feet and reopen. The seafood in the Gulf will be tainted indefinately, long after they contain the oil and (hopefully) finish a clean up.

The FDA will ban the consumption of Gulf seafood for a long time. People will still eat it, many will have to there are thousands of people living on the Gulf who are so much on the poverty line already they rely on seafood as cheap (or free) food source. Then their health will suffer through the contamination in the food chain by the oil from Deepwater Horizon well.

The Gulf Coast has a massive tourist industry. All that is hammered. Rare leatherback turtles, other marine species, even a whale are turning up dead, well outside the spill area but autopsy reveals the oil is the cause of death. This comes to an area that has been devasted time and time over the past few years due to natural disasters like Hurricanes Katrina and Ike. Many never recovered from that financially, or mentally, now a man made disaster will be the end.

The boating industry. The Gulf is lined with marinas, boat builders, and related industry. Much of this is halted. And so the list grows and grows of business and lives directly affected. The delicate marshes and wetlands are tainted, clean up of those nigh impossible because of the flora and soil structure.

So yes the White House attitude to the BP CEO is appropriate. Tony Hayward has shown little compassion to the people and wildlife affected. He has made a number of public gaffs, publics comments - "I would like this spill contained as quickly as possible as I would like my life back" (would'nt ALL the Gulf residents, the wildlife, and the 11 rig crew who lost their lives in the initial disaster?). Tony Hayward has further angered the USA by declining to attend another crisis meeting instead takes time off to watch his $700,000 yacht race at Cowes week.
 
I also know the Gulf Coast pretty well.

American companies aren't so trigger happy when THEY cause environmental damage as was the case in Bhopal.

So you know a lot about the oil industry. BP did not own or maintain the rig which blew up. Who owned it and who was responsible for maintainance?

If the breaks fail on my contract hire car, maintained by Lease Company. I would not expect to be hounded if I was the driver in a fatal car crash.

UC knew there were risks in Bhopal. They fixed the identical safety problems at an identical plant in the USA. What did the White House have to say about that?
 
Deepwater Horizon is leased to BP = 75% stake; Andarko (Woodlands based) 25%; Mitsui (JP) 10%. The stakes holders (owners) ARE responsible for maintainance.:-

"Any agreement between the field operator and nonoperating partners has specific language. But the standard template for deep-water agreements--the American Association of Professional Landmen's Form 810--says parties to the agreement bear liabilities for damages in proportion to their stakes except "when liability results from the gross negligence or willful misconduct" of one of the parties."

Most (except those small production, single rig, individually owned) rigs subcontract out to drilling companies, mud companies, etc for workers. Under USA law the shareholders are responsible - for everything from the cleaners, cooks, to the drill pipe standards. BP do "own" the rig in situ as a majority shareholder, they will have oil executives who hire a drilling co (or team), who then hire the rough necks, who work the rig. Even though the subcontractors will have arranged everything it still would have to be passed by BP et al for the green light, the signature on the approval would have been a BP Exc. The buck stops there are they say.

Transocean (Swiss based) own Deepwater Horizon and lease it to BP. But that is the rig structure. The disaster was caused by gas, oil, mud rushing back up the 3 miles of down pipe and up the sub sea risers. Rigs have blowout preventers but they are not failsafe. The forces of gas and oil are unpredictable and massive, in this case unexpected by the mud engineers who would have been monitoring the drilling. Huge pressure surge, at such high pressure some of the gas seperated from the oil and ignited in the hydrocarbon stream. It could have been human error, metallurgical failure, the rams on the blowout preventer may have failed. Transocean supply the rig structure, they do not supply the drill pipe, workers, etc.

Brakes on a car hire failing is a poor analogy. And under US law you may still be held under involuntary manslaughter if you killed someone while at the wheel of the car as would would have been aware driving out of the car rental lot that the modern ABS brakes were not functioning correctly.

UC in Bhopal - look back to who was in the WH at the time. Why are you surprised by the response?
 
Personally I think that BP need hauling over the coals for this, they were warned about dangerous practices in advance and continued cutting corners.

They are also using ccorexit as a dispersant, which in itself has environmental implications:- http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/20...de-corexit-sprayed-bp-tops-1-million-gallons/

I also think that there could be far reaching implications that go way beyond the Union Carbide incident (as terrible as that is):- http://www.helium.com/items/1864136-how-the-ultimate-bp-gulf-disaster-could-kill-millions

I don't think we've seen the half yet over the damage this can cause.
 
Its been great for Obarma with elections looming he realy is milking it and he needs too as many Amercans hate him and dont like his or the democrats agenda.. so this is great for diverting attention from the economy and foreign policy..
sadly this accident has happend maybe because of lax safety and or the conditions they were drilling in.. the americans wanted the jobs they need the oil, it will cost to sort out
clean up but like other oil spills things will return to normal ...the bhopal thing is disgusting as was the piper alfa, tori canyon and a lot of other things the US have been involved in so maybe best for them not to be holyier than thou...
 
So Cefyl, following your argument. American drivers of faulty Toyota's are quilty of contributory negligence.

The winners in the BP catastrophe will be American Lawyers who will win more in fees than those affected will win in compensation. Right now everyone should be pulling together to solve the problem rather than wasting their energies on blaming one individual.

If drilling in this part of the USA is so dangerous why does America permit it to go ahead?

Perhaps American's will decide that it is time to use less fossil fuel. When I am in an American Hotel the first thing I do on checking in is turn off the air conditioning. Larry Hagman once said that wealthy Texas residents turned the air-con so low, that if it were that cold in winter they would dig out their furs.

When I spent time in Chicago, my company put me in a luxurious apartment with maid service. I discovered to my horror the maid would run a dishwasher with 4/5 items in it. I run my dishwasher when it is full.

My neighbours were appalled when they found out I walked to the supermarket rather than take the car. It was 200 yards away.

If you take the environment seriously you should look at your own lifestyle.
 
Rollin said:
So Cefyl, following your argument. American drivers of faulty Toyota's are quilty of contributory negligence.

The winners in the BP catastrophe will be American Lawyers who will win more in fees than those affected will win in compensation. Right now everyone should be pulling together to solve the problem rather than wasting their energies on blaming one individual.

If drilling in this part of the USA is so dangerous why does America permit it to go ahead?

Perhaps American's will decide that it is time to use less fossil fuel. When I am in an American Hotel the first thing I do on checking in is turn off the air conditioning. Larry Hagman once said that wealthy Texas residents turned the air-con so low, that if it were that cold in winter they would dig out their furs.

When I spent time in Chicago, my company put me in a luxurious apartment with maid service. I discovered to my horror the maid would run a dishwasher with 4/5 items in it. I run my dishwasher when it is full.

My neighbours were appalled when they found out I walked to the supermarket rather than take the car. It was 200 yards away.

If you take the environment seriously you should look at your own lifestyle.
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I agree that we should look to our own lifestyles; however the damage that this spill can do environmentally is potentially catastrophic, whereas each of us has our own responsibility, this environmental disaster has been forced on us through B.P's negligence and greed. At the end of the day it will be the wildlife and ordinary person who suffers. There are already reports of crops being damaged and some have suggested it could be toxins from the oil, and russian scientists have warned that rainfall can become toxic due to the chemicals. Also worryingly BP knew about cracks in the well in February, and did nothing about it, although Tony Heyward did sell £1.4 million worth of shares. BP also prevented people from rescuing the endangered kemp ridley turtles and are just burning them with the oil :- http://www.youtube.com/user/catherinec8#p/a/u/0/4kjw3_bMk8o
 
ROLLIN - so are you French or do you just have a hatred of all other nationalities?

WHAT argument? You asked questions about rigs and related topics to the blowout. I answered you - straight. No argument. Car analogy - poor and IF you have spent as much time as you claim in the US and are an all out US expert you should know that there are no winners in the courts, it depends on how good your defence lawyer is, or how determined the prosecution lawyer is.

Drilling is dangerous ANYWHERE in the world, full stop. The exact same thing could happen to any of the rigs surrounding the UK, Scandinavia, Europe. British, French, Dutch, whatever run operations.

And don't arrogantly assume I am American, or live in the USA. I said we have a property there and lived there in the 1980's. The clue is in my name, or if that is beyond your reasoning powers then I am a resident and native of a country that is part of the UNITED KINGDOM.

You have no idea on my lifestyle. For all you know I could have a completely carbon negative lifestyle and home.

And the French oil companies are just as bad as the rest of the world's. Total SA 1999 - La Rochelle (Total also own the AZF plant that exploded in 2001 in Toulouse); Perenco is ignoring enviromental campaigns to keep it from drilling in the Amazon Basin. The Dutch on the Ivory Coast along with the French companies - same dangers in drilling as anywhere or do you not care about that?

Oh and on the topic of economy and enviromental awareness was it beyond you to load your own dishwasher in Chicago?
 
I did infact pop into this section of the forum looking so see if there had been any posts on this - being an oilworker and someone living in the UK the deepwater incident is of great interest to me.

Cefyl - its nice to see I am not the only person with some experience in the industry here :) I didnt find that your reply was at all argumental... just fact based.

I second that drilling ANYWHERE is dangerous and the reseviour that the deepwater drilled into was clearly an extremely good find. There are 100's of high temp, high pressure wells drilled every year all over the world - and I wouldnt for one second believe the other operations who said to congress "we wouldnt have drilled the well" yes they would have! I do believe they would have drilled it differently (mainly as they all have their own methods! no two seem to operate the same!).

I do find the comparrison between DW and Bhopal interesting - seems to be very different when its not in the USA's backyard.....
Also I feel that BP are getting the brunt alone here - but from being on a rig, its the toolpusher who makes sure ur BOP operates.... he works for Transocean, they seem to have managed to hide behind BP, along with the minor partners who should be facing up to this too - if you take a share of the profits, you then also take a share of the risks.
 
Whenever I see Obama (who I think is terrific btw) getting hot under the collar about BP, I was to shout Union Carbide at the telly.
It wasn't hundreds Rollin, at least 25,000 people have been killed and more are dying, the birth defects are overwhelming and the impact on the area environmentally is catastrophic. I think the business of multinationals setting up ****hole factories in 3rd world countries to exploit the community & the environment should stop, thinking US pig farms in Mexico, Apple in China here!!!

Having said that, both disasters are horrific, maybe the lesson should be across the whole oil industry and our dependence on it. Maybe some of the ongoing tragedies with pollution from oil in places like Nigeria, will now be sorted and the industry as a whole made to clean up it's act. I don't suppose BP are any worse than the rest.
 
Cefyl that was really interesting, thank you. I think comparing it to the Bhopal disaster, which happened 25 years ago, can't really be done. Obama was not in power then and had no control over what happened. He is and does on this occasion and is acting to ensure the people who live there, and the environment, have money and action from BP.

Monetary comparisons spread over 25 years are also difficult as things are worth so much more now. I also think the world has changed a great deal in the past 25 years, thank god. I am certain, or would like to think anyway, that people would not take a disaster of this nature anywhere in the world and just ignore it. The internet and 24 hour news, which was not available (to the UK anyway) in 1984 means we see far more of the devastation and not just what the BBC wishes for us to see.

I did find this really interesting though, that many of the deaths from Bhopal, and the problems which continue to happen, are not as a result of the initial explosion - they are due to the dumping of toxic waste around the plant. Using unlined ponds to put the chemicals in which have then leaked through to the surrounding water courses.....doesn't only happen in Bhopal, think Erin Brockovich! And the Hinkley plant was still at it in the early 90s even AFTER they knew of the problems at Bhopal. So they do mess on their own people too.

If anyone is interested
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhopal_disaster

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erin_Brockovich
 
and Siennamum I couldn't agree more re the slow clean up etc, hopefully this awful disaster may help refocus people on Bhopal and start to demand to know what is being done there now.
 
I wonder how many people realise how much we all are guilty of polluting the enviroment on a daily basis from oil related substances? And how dependant we are on them. Every time you use a shampoo, nail polish, toothpaste, washing up liquid, laundry deteregent and so on, the list is endless - all contain petrochemicals. Look at your shampoo the first ingredient may be water (aqua), then SLS or SLES (or both), cheaper shampoos SLS / SLES is the primary ingredient. All this goes into our water course affecting fish and wildlife. Many are known carcinogens. Women's fertility levels are linked to petrochemicals in toiletries and cosmetics. Basically SLS started life as an engine degreaser now you wash your hair in it!

Fly repellants. At least the FDA has a limit on the % of DEET allowed in them. The UK does not and some of the DEET containing fly repellants you may plaster on your horse is a direct product of the petrochemical industry and highly toxic. Try putting some on an item of nylon clothing and see what happens.

So in our own way we all are just as guilty as any country for keeping up demand for the oil industry and it's by products. There are alternatives but often people do not want to pay that bit more. The FDA require even dog and horse shampoos to have ingredient listings, sadly the UK do not and this encourages the companies to put the cheapest surfectants available in the product.

The chemical dispersants being used on the spill, the controversial Corexit that was used then stopped because of the extreme danger to wildlife and the eco system. Some of it's chemical composition:- dioctyl sodium sulfosuccinate (commonly used in laxatives!); 2-butoxyethanol (soaps, liquid soaps, cosmetics, dry cleaning etc); propelyne glycol (diazepam, moisturiser in cosmetics and toiletries, deodorants, and many many daily products we take for granted); several of the other chemical components are also in our daily life under "disguise". So how much do we pump into the enviroment without being aware and could we truely live without the products?
 
I don’t think the lesson learnt here should be about the dependence on the oil industry (surely that lesson was already known years before DW Horizon) – I think it’s a lesson on the consequences of cutting corners and taking reckless actions.

The most worrying statements which have come out of this incident have been from the so called BP technical experts making key decisions about the wells execution – for example the infamous – “who cares, its done now and it will probably be alright”. Simply shocking, and shows a clear lack of awareness about the consequences – lets not forget here about the 11 people killed, it so easily could have been more, and now the catastrophic effect that the leaking oil is having on the gulf. I firmly believe that the people who made the key decisions which lead to this incident should be brought to justice – but it’s something that will take along time and something that wasn’t just down to BP in reality.

As for “dragging BP over the coals”… yes the people who where responsible for this should be but lets not wish that the company as a whole is destroyed as with it will go the UK economy – back into recession once again.

Just a note on the UK dependence on oil – it’s not just about the products of oil, the industry itself has contributed billions in Tax into the UK economy.
 
Thing is that everything they try is new, they are learning with everything they do, so they dont actually know what to do. So really.........its all going to be a huge continual F-up. Everything gets tested, but companis are soo keen to get equiptmentup and running that they do the minimum they can. Even the full QA packages will not cover everything. They can have a guy watching every step of a tools construction, but if the design as a whole is flawed then its doomed.

Many people/companies are to blame. Every other company has admitted that they have the same plan should similar happen. It could very well happen in the north sea soon...........in fact it very nearly happened on a rig my dad works on.

Where was this Oil destined for? UK or USA?
 
I do find it hard to believe this kind of incident will be repeated in the North Sea soon.... for a start no where in the North Sea has a water depth of 5000ft, and the drilling regulations in the North Sea are different to those in the US, the reseviour pressure wont be the same and so on.

I dont think that the orginal well design was to fault - what seems to be at fault are the changes made to the design without considering the full consequences and without due care and consideration to the nature of the well.

As for where the oil was destined for --> it was an exploration well - the hydrocarbons where being assessed and where not being produced.
 
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