braking issue!! please help :) also in CR

[Arniebear]

I know this has been done thousands of times but I'm running out of ideas!!! please help me

Ok I have an ex racer who isnt exactly snaffle mouthed!! I ride him in a grackel for schooling and hacking and just a plain eggbutt snaffle but I need something stronger for jumping, xc and hunting

I've tried a french link 2 ring gag, which he just leans on (and by this i mean put his head between his legs and bugger off!!!!), so I upgraded to a waterford 2 ring gag which worked wanders the first time I used it and then he just leaned on it!!

I then spoke to one of his previous owners who said she always jumped him in a pelham. So que me buying lots of different pelhams to try!! Ended up getting a straight bar stainless steel one, which he jumps sooo much better in, actually comes back to me and gets onto to his hocks (something he never did with the gag) so i thought all was sorted how wrong could I be!!!

Took him to an unaff ode and although the xc was up to height it wasnt a real galloping course, on the bits he did get a bit of a run, I was thinking mmmmmm do i actually have any brakes??? luckily he spotted a spectator out of the corner of his eye and slowed a little so he didnt bugger off exactly, well today he really did!!!

I decided to test out one of our lovely stubbles and was aiming to do a nice hack canter alongside my sister on her 4 yr old, well my 8yr old had other ideas and preceeded to pee off! luckily the field was huge so after one lap and a few circles I got him back but there was a point where I thought if we carry on the only things thats going to break is one of the reins!! He clearly resorted back to his racing days!!!

Now dont get me wrong i did enjoy going fast! but I do need a bit of respect especially when jumps and other people are involved!!!

so does anyone have any ideas of what I could try??

I was thinking his waterford gag with his grackel (this bit is the only one I can get his head up from out of his front legs!!!!) but can anyone else suggest something I have not tried??

sorry its turned out to be a bit of an essay! congrats if you got this far!

 

[Arniebear]

anyone????

 

[Mariposa]

How about a Dr Bristol? When I evented my pony used to regularly tank off with me and that was the only bit he had any respect for, he totally ignored pelhams, gags and anything else!

 

[TrasaM]

Sorry can't help but I was introduced to that feeling in monday when you realise the brakes are just not attached anymore. We were doing a mini out and back x country course and when the home straight was sighted off he went! Didn't seem sensible to take the last jump as he was flat out by then. Scary when the choice is over or through a wooden fence or sharp left on wet ground. We survived but I've not forgiven him.

 

[maree t]

Hi

<
My daughters pony can be quite strong and a 3 ring snaffle just left him running off with his head on the floor. we changed to a loose ring continental snaffle. It is quite a thin bit with a little bit of poll pressure. He cant lean and use his shoulders against her and seems to respect it

 

[Arniebear]

How about a Dr Bristol? When I evented my pony used to regularly tank off with me and that was the only bit he had any respect for, he totally ignored pelhams, gags and anything else!

thanks for the suggestion, i have no experience with one... how do they work?? poll pressure? sorry for being dim!

i was thinking a tom thumb? is this harsher or gentler than a pelham?? i have also been suggested a NS elevator but they come in at nearly £100 LOL im not made of money!!!!

 

[muff747]

My gelding was very strong, especially on hunter trials and I went through the same scenario as you are, stronger and stronger bits.
I eventually tried more poll pressure and a softer bit, which seemed to work as he wasn't fighting against the bit.
So the final combination was, a happy mouth plastic straight bit bubble ring gag, on the bottom ring with a drop noseband and a market harborough martingale! And I tried to resist a steady pull on the reins, and went for checking him when I anticipated he was going to make a run for it!
Of course that was just for cross country. For hacking out, I used the market harborough with a hanging cheek french link and the drop noseband.
When I eventually got into a bit of novice dressage, the same bit with the drop noseband seemed to work fine but that could be because by that time, I had done lots more schooling and he was better behaved
P.S. I've heard the Myler combination bits are good, they are a bit pricey also, not sure how much tho.

 

[Arniebear]

Hi

<
My daughters pony can be quite strong and a 3 ring snaffle just left him running off with his head on the floor. we changed to a loose ring continental snaffle. It is quite a thin bit with a little bit of poll pressure. He cant lean and use his shoulders against her and seems to respect it

the thing is i struggle to hold him together in the arena in a snaffle hence why i put a grakel on him, he is very fast into his fences, i dont think i would risk xc in one!!! i dont even jump him at home in my arena in one!! thanks for the suggestion thou

 

[Arniebear]

My gelding was very strong, especially on hunter trials and I went through the same scenario as you are, stronger and stronger bits.
I eventually tried more poll pressure and a softer bit, which seemed to work as he wasn't fighting against the bit.
So the final combination was, a happy mouth plastic straight bit bubble ring gag, on the bottom ring with a drop noseband and a market harborough martingale! And I tried to resist a steady pull on the reins, and went for checking him when I anticipated he was going to make a run for it!
Of course that was just for cross country. For hacking out, I used the market harborough with a hanging cheek french link and the drop noseband.
When I eventually got into a bit of novice dressage, the same bit with the drop noseband seemed to work fine but that could be because by that time, I had done lots more schooling and he was better behaved

thats interesting thank you, the thing with him is he doesnt seem to like poll pressure much, i had him in a hanging cheek snaffle when i first got him and he hated it, the gags make him lower his head until its between his legs - which i am well aware they are meant to raise a horses head!!! he also dislikes low nosebands, he cant get to grips with a flash (constantly nose shakes) he seems to go ok when riding in a grakel but he hates it when u tack him up!!! i love him to pieces but if he carries on i might just have to relegate him to be a boring dressage horse where he has a fence to stop him buggering off (this will never happen i hate dressage! but i can threaten it!!!!!!) LOL

 

[muff747]

I am sure you will have had his teeth neck back and saddle checked for any pain issues. Any of these will make him fight you and actually try to run away from the pain - seems illogical to us but a horse is a flight animal.

 

[Arniebear]

I am sure you will have had his teeth neck back and saddle checked for any pain issues. Any of these will make him fight you and actually try to run away from the pain - seems illogical to us but a horse is a flight animal.

of course, his back was done 2 weeks ago, teeth about a month and he had a new saddle about 2 months ago all fine! hes just a strong ex racer who evidently leans... alot!! i need something to get his head up and something he respects!!

 

[Littlelegs]

If you've been using a dutch gag then it works similar to a pelham, with poll pressure lowering the head. Whilst I'm not debating he may well need something more for jumping or future xc, imo it sounds more like you need to work on his schooling, especially in canter, rather than the bit being the solution.

 

[Elsbells]

NS elevator is worth a try if you could borrow one? Maybe a bit bank?

 

[Arniebear]

If you've been using a dutch gag then it works similar to a pelham, with poll pressure lowering the head. Whilst I'm not debating he may well need something more for jumping or future xc, imo it sounds more like you need to work on his schooling, especially in canter, rather than the bit being the solution.

i will admit he does need more schooling, but when i school him in his eggbutt snaffle he takes a lovely outline and doesnt rush and settles rather well after a few strides, take him to a stubble or a field in his snaffle and you dont stand a chance, put a fence in the way and i just cant hold him, add extra horses in the mix and ur just ****ed!!!! he jumps fast and i feel like id rather have a bit, i have to barely use to get his respect then a snaffle where i have to pull his teeth out to get him to stop before the boundary fence of the arena, he also jumps flat in a snaffle, put him in his pelham and he actually uses his hocks and jumps nicely, but he just leans on this when galloping, so clearly doesnt work for xc/hunting. 7

if u have any schooling tips to help him not gallop and pull like a tank on a xc course feel free to suggest them

 

[Arniebear]

NS elevator is worth a try if you could borrow one? Maybe a bit bank?

yeah i have looked into these.... expensive is all i have to say!!!! LOL think i may trail one from bit bank and see how he goes in it. any idea what they are like???? do you have experiences with one??

i was thinking tom thumb, but is this any stronger than a pelham?

 

[wench]

Ns universals are verygood. Ex racers normally come out of racing very light mouthed, as they have never been hauled on.

When cantering with your sister did you go in single file, or alongsides each other? If the latter, most horses will race each other!

 

[labruyere]

problem is... none of us can solve this problem 'on line'...

IME the only way is to try a bit on the horse itself...

do you have a local BE trainer, serious competition yard or similar...

when faced with a similar problem I booked a session with my trainer (whose qualified several horses for Badminton over the years)...

he grabbed every type of bit in the tack room, shoved them in a box, and we kept changing them til we found one that worked (it was slightly more logical than that sounds, but you get the picture...)

bit banks are great but involve significantly more elapsed time....

-for info, the answer in my case was a cheltenham or running gag - interesting as he hated and fought the dutch gag with a vengeance....

but both he and I love the cheltenham... (being a little sad, I even composed a little ditty in its honour... not the greatest lyrics ever, being 'I love my gag' repeated over and over..! )

with regard to training... all of my horses are trained to respond to a 'whoa-oa' voice aid - as used in a downwards transition on the lunge... I find that this often gets through even when their adrenalin is so high that the bit has lost most of its power (all my other horses are just ridden in a snaffle)

finally - a completely lateral thought - if you really believe he is hard mouthed have you considered a hackamore or similar...

very best of luck
.

 

[Arniebear]

Ns universals are verygood. Ex racers normally come out of racing very light mouthed, as they have never been hauled on.

When cantering with your sister did you go in single file, or alongsides each other? If the latter, most horses will race each other!

we were single file, i know hes an ex racer and probably thought race, but when i was alone on a xc course i still had a lack of brakes, he can race all he wants on a stubble but when i say stop he needs to listen to me!

problem is... none of us can solve this problem 'on line'...

IME the only way is to try a bit on the horse itself...

do you have a local BE trainer, serious competition yard or similar...

when faced with a similar problem I booked a session with my trainer (whose qualified several horses for Badminton over the years)...

he grabbed every type of bit in the tack room, shoved them in a box, and we kept changing them til we found one that worked (it was slightly more logical than that sounds, but you get the picture...)

bit banks are great but involve significantly more elapsed time....

-for info, the answer in my case was a cheltenham or running gag - interesting as he hated and fought the dutch gag with a vengeance....

but both he and I love the cheltenham... (being a little sad, I even composed a little ditty in its honour... not the greatest lyrics ever, being 'I love my gag' repeated over and over..! )

with regard to training... all of my horses are trained to respond to a 'whoa-oa' voice aid - as used in a downwards transition on the lunge... I find that this often gets through even when their adrenalin is so high that the bit has lost most of its power (all my other horses are just ridden in a snaffle)

finally - a completely lateral thought - if you really believe he is hard mouthed have you considered a hackamore or similar...

very best of luck
.

i understand none of you have seen him in the flesh so cant solve the issue, i'm just wandering what other people have tried with similar horses, all of my past horses have been snaffle mouthed so i dont have much experience with bit changes.

i do have lessons with tina ure (BE instructor) who thought the pelham was perhaps too strong for him sj, im yet to have a xc lesson with her so she hasnt seen him in this light yet!

i dont believe he is hard mouthed at all, he is just strong, he mouths bits wonderfully and is really light in the hands when schooling in the arena in a snaffle, he just seems to get in a mindset of faster faster faster, puts his head down and buggers off!

 

[muff747]

but he just leans on this when galloping, so clearly doesnt work for xc/hunting.
if u have any schooling tips to help him not gallop and pull like a tank on a xc course feel free to suggest them

Yup, sounds just like my gelding in our hey day
Again, I think this leaning on the bit, if you try to not give him something to lean on. Loosen the contact slightly when he leans and then check him (not a jab) a few times before he gets up too much speed and loosen again when he stops pulling. I know it's hard to do when your on a half ton raging lunatic beast but try to have courage and confidence it will work.
Mine used to motorbike round corners in the school and I had years of lessons from loads of different trainers but only one had the answer. She was a dressage rider and she taught me to check him rather than trying to hold him back, she said he's being rude trying to take control so be firm and say "No" come back to me. I found I had to sit up almost with my head back and chin up otherwise if my weight was forward, it would make him go faster.
I found if he was busting to gallop, I would try to relax my arms, back and legs muscles and loosen the reins rather than gather them up to hang on.
If you're tense, and tighten the reins, that's his signal to race!! At the end of a race they drop the reins and sit up and relax. Practice out hacking, pretending to yourself you are just coming out of canter, then ask for canter and sit up, shoulders back, not in the forward jumping seat.
Good luck and if this doesn't work, go weight training to build up your muscles (only joking)

 

[yannialice]

You could try a myler combined with the market harborough.
I think th MH is jumping legal and i know the myler is dressage legal. Excellent bit for stopping the leaning through.
Have you tried the horsebit shop they do a 30 day trial on bits.

Have you tried doing canter circles and making him bored of running a bit. I used to do that with the ex race horse polo ponies when they 1st came in also good to work their gears a bit and change the speed through out the canter. checking the breaks contantly with little half halts.
See how you go.

Good luck, hate no brakes!!!!!

 

[yannialice]

Sorry that made no sense.....When I used to retrain ex race horses I used to Let them do maybe 5 strides of canter and then trot and repeat. Gradually increasing the striding. So for example 15 strides canter 5 trot and so on.
After about 2 weeks letting them have long canter but half halt though the canter letting them run lengthened and then half halting and steadying back. And then so on into gallop. The trick is to not let them get ahead of you. the minute you feeling them going check them back into a steady pace. It's basically retraining their way of thinking.
I would try a myler as they are excellent and not to hard and very good at the horse not leaning on the bit.

Again good luck.