Bravery in horses

LEC

LEC

Opinions are like bum holes, everyone has one.
Joined
22 July 2005
Messages
11,719
Visit site
My daily musing today is on bravery in horses. Nothing as contentious as fat!!:rolleyes:

So I have a horse who I ride for his owner. His owner is a very experienced horsewoman and dealer (in fact I do not recommend riding for such a person as its a very nerve wracking experience) anyway I digress, but basically she was chatting to her friend about the horse I have to her friend who is well known in the racing scene (as a jockey) and owner of a gold cup winner. They just do not feel that horse is going to be that great because he is such a nice person.

I was trying to rack my brains with a cunning comeback and example and all the horses I think are mega stars seem to be swines and sods in some way. Can a very nice person (well he is a horse but you know what I mean) be a xc super star?

I believe its all in the education and who is on top. As have had horses who I have made brave, also Andrew Nicholsons horses just come out and give it all a go at novice and the majority seem to be xc machines the one thing they all have in common is Andrew?

So what are your views?
 
I don't believe a talented horse has to be a swine to handle any more than a talented person has to be a swine :)

If you take WFPs Moon Man he started off in a trekking centre in Sligo and seemed to be a totally genuine sort that all around him loved. I'm sure others will think of better examples!
 
I guess in anything around jumping as they need guts to jump over 1.30m IMO for Sjing. My question was in relation to xc as I want a tiger and not a mouse but wondering if his nice personality will be a hinderance rather than a help.
 
Having groomed for International SJ horses I would say that the minority are gits. Sure, some neurotic horses around, but generally nice creatures :)

You need a lot more heart for XC tho, and I suppose a horse with a bit of arrogance about him doesn't go amiss, so long as he doesn't believe the arrogance makes him invincible :D
 
surely a nice personality will only mean that they will try harder for you?
Using Opposition Buzz as an example - I can't see him being a horrible person?
 
IME the brave horses are generally lovely! Take Opposition Buzz, you would be hard pressed to find a braver horse, yet he is a gentleman to handle at all times. He has been hacked out by novices, and was willing to put up with my jumping efforts when he wasn't at Nicola's (I used to work for his owner!)

As to that Andrew nicholson theory I own Henry tankerville's full sister, so I am hoping there is a family resemblance!
 
No I think that's a bit silly really!

Maybe it's different with race horses? But then when they do the lead up to the gold cup, grand national etc. and interview the grooms, go round the stables of the favourites, they always say they are lovely!
 
only_me said:
surely a nice personality will only mean that they will try harder for you?
Using Opposition Buzz as an example - I can't see him being a horrible person?
Click to expand...

I was about to say Opposition Buzz! I've never met him, but he looks like a lovely person :)

Edited to say, I have met many of the horses on Paul Nicholl's yard, including all his super-stars and they are all sweethearts who I would gladly handle anyday.
 
Last edited:
Racehorses certainly need a bit of aggression. It can get rough in a race and you dont want a horse that backs off.I recall one particular horse which was at the time ,the most expensive yearling in the UK. Given to the oldest most experienced lad to "do". Unfortunately he was so frightend of the horse getting hurt that if another horse came a bit close on the gallops ,he pulled it away. The horse was useless for racing because basicly it had learnt to be afraid of other horses.
 
Was going to mention WFP's horses - most of them (maybe apart from Tam!) appear to be very happy, calm horses that just get on with the job without any drama. Moon Man in particular, but Ballincoola was definetely another very genuine looking horse, and these are 4* horses so at the peak of fitness.

My old horse has been seen by many people who thought he would have made it as an advanced eventer if he hadn't raced for many years. I know people who worked on the same racing yard and he was loved by everyone because he wasn't an arse to deal with - very business-like about his job. When I used to take him anywhere he was so non-plussed about it and just got on with it, not in a switched off way as was very enthusiastic, but didn't get excited about being somewhere new. The only time I thought I was in trouble was when we went eventing at Scone - we turned up to find the dressage was beside the racecourse where we won the Gold Cup 6 years before! We plodded down from the lorry park but when he saw the white rails he woke up, eyes on stalks, and I thought I was in trouble. Weird thing was, we did our best test ever!

I have another ex-recehorse, and looking at his breeding you would expect him to be a bit of a handful, but he is like a big lapdog - the most affectionate horse you could meet.

My 3rd horse isn't a TB (Russian WB) and is a completely different kettle of fish - my husband (who is a farmer so used to dealing with big, opinionated animals) says he is a cocky ********r, and he is probably right but again is easy to deal with as long as he knows who is boss.

I know quite a few others that aren't easy to deal with but I think there are a lot of owners that think that difficult to deal with means they are more talented than us lesser talented mortals horses!! Whatever!

DarkHorseB said:
I don't believe a talented horse has to be a swine to handle any more than a talented person has to be a swine :)

If you take WFPs Moon Man he started off in a trekking centre in Sligo and seemed to be a totally genuine sort that all around him loved. I'm sure others will think of better examples!
Click to expand...
 
Its nice to know Opp Buzz is a nice horse in every way. I always thought Supreme Rock looked a nice horse as well. I guess in my poor writing skills I am wondering whether bravery is nature or nurture?
 
Funny you should say that - I've often wondered about my nice black horse, who is very polite and obliging. Fabulous therefore to handle and to ride but I know exactly why he would have been a bad racehorse, he just isn't the 'go get 'em' type.

I think you've got a point. They have to have what I call 'a bit about them', a bit of bolshiness and a bit of a wild streak, the kind of thing that properly channelled would be brilliance. Like the naughty kid at school who was actually very bright and just bored. Going to the racehorse sales, you can really see the type that would do well.
 
Agree about Opposition Buzz and Supreme Rock - very happy horses. OB probably not as easy to ride on the flat but definetely genuine looking. Any of Pippa's horses look very happy in their job - loved Primore's Pride. Having seen Lenamore standing on his back legs at Blair this year I can understand why he got a bit of a reputation as a youngster but what a XC horse! If I could ride one side of him I would want to have a go! And there's no nastiness - it's all excitement, and at 17yo that's very impressive - obviously loves his life.

All these horses have that bit more about them , confidence yes, but I don't think they need to be gits to be talented.
 
LEC said:
Its nice to know Opp Buzz is a nice horse in every way. I always thought Supreme Rock looked a nice horse as well. I guess in my poor writing skills I am wondering whether bravery is nature or nurture?
Click to expand...

I think there is a bit of both... One of my horses is what I would call naturally brave. If she was a person, she would border on being pig headed:o, she's confident in herself, rarely afraid and a ''problem solver'', a bit like a collie dog :)
Now, I haven't taught her that, I've bred her and she always has been this way. The rest of them are wusses in comparison, although relatively bomb proofed, you can tell sometimes they are worried/afraid/unsure - not Melody, if anything, she gets angry.
She is a very nice girl to be around and handle, though.
 
Interesting about Henny is that he was a reject from another discipline as totally jacked it in. It was through Peter Atkins patience and efforts and Henny discovering that he loved xc that set him back onto the road to redemption.
http://www.runhennyrun.com/henbio.html
To me that is a clearly talented horse but finding the right partner.
 
I think you have prettywell hit the nail on the head. It is a partnership and a good brave rider can give a horse a lot of self belief,and vice versa.
 
Mike007 said:
Racehorses certainly need a bit of aggression. It can get rough in a race and you dont want a horse that backs off.I recall one particular horse which was at the time ,the most expensive yearling in the UK. Given to the oldest most experienced lad to "do". Unfortunately he was so frightend of the horse getting hurt that if another horse came a bit close on the gallops ,he pulled it away. The horse was useless for racing because basicly it had learnt to be afraid of other horses.
Click to expand...

But a horses "aggression" or attitude to other horses doesn't always reflect how they act towards humans?
 
Starbucks said:
But a horses "aggression" or attitude to other horses doesn't always reflect how they act towards humans?
Click to expand...

True ,but the best horses I have known had prettymuch the same attitude towards both.Perhaps aggression is not quite the right word,because it can also come through fear. What I mean is the kind of attitude that there is only one winner and thats me.My little point to pointer totaly shocked me in one race when he was dualing with a rather nice grey horse ,and well I can only describe it as a"deliberate professional fou l"Ballanced himself , changed legs and side swiped the greys back legs from under it.:eek:It was dirty it was deliberate and he was as smug as anything about it.Grey disappeared in the rear view mirror ,shame about the other four horses still in front.:D
 
I've known a couple of brave horses.

Jack who we have at the moment would, I think, jump anything you pointed him at, he is that kind of TB who has a slightly unnerving, lock on and go mentality. He is a complete saint and very sweet, but does get that nutty look in his eye ocassionally. His bravery is in his blood I think, he has a switch in his head & it has nothing to do with whether he is a nice person - although he is a cribber so perhaps would have been a difficult stress head in the wrong hands. He also could be possibly dangerous with a nervous rider as I think he would just go.

My old eventer, never, ever stopped. He jumped round big open Hunter trial & team chase courses in the Midlands (6ft hedges etc) He simply didn't have a stop in him, we had to stop acquiring points in order to sell him for more money. I think that was because he was trained by the best, never had any mistakes made in his training, never had reason to doubt his rider or himself. His rider was clueless but completely fearless - and so he was also. He was a lovely straightforward horse, absolutely without issues or complications.

SO: I think one is brave cause it's in his nature, the other is brave due to nurture (& some nature) but both are really nice people.

What does affect competitiveness I think is either the horses willingness to please which has nothing to do with talent or their cleverness which can really work against you but if managed right can make them brilliant.

I think it's perfectly possible for a talanted horse to also be lovely to know, but very easy for a clever horse to get horrible.

I also think that lots of uber bold string horses may have learned to run & jump (in the olden days) because they were uncomfortable or anxious. This would also make them unpleasant to be around.
 
I thinkyou can have horses that are lovely people, but still have that "edge" and "Let me at 'um" mentality they need to be brave. If they were a nice person and had not much about them, I would be more inclined to think they would not be that brave.

However, there is always the other camp of the slightly "thick" horses that never consider anything to be scary, as they just aren't that switched on! They would be "brave" but probably not the type you'd WANT to take XC!!

ETA I know a YR's Sjer (jumping YR grand prix) who is the spokkiest thing on 4 legs, so probably not "brave" in that sense, but will jump 1.40/1.50 fences even on a slightly duff stride... would he be brave? Or just incredibly "professional" about his job?
 
Last edited:
I guess in my poor writing skills I am wondering whether bravery is nature or nurture?
Click to expand...

I think it is definitely a bit of both - but I suppose depends entirely on how you define bravery.

I've known a few horses who would jump anything, never have a stop in them - but are the spookiest, wussiest horses ever. However jumping doesn't faze them because they've been brought up with it from day one - that is their job, it is what they do, its not an issue. So that would be nurture - they're not actually 'brave' so to speak, but they are honest and well schooled enough for obedience.

Other horses are naturally brave, cart anyone over anything types, whether it is something they are familiar with or not; it is just in their nature, although good training and positive experiences will enhance it and vice versa.

I am inclined to think that it is the horses that have a natural thirst and love for work/jumping that are more likely to really excel at the top level, and that type usually have a bit more 'something about them' personality wise - but I don't think that it excludes them from being nice people to handle.
 
How would you describe Murphy Himself?

Was his natural bravery or was it nurtured beyond normal? :p

See, Merlin would jump off any stride and would jump anything I asked - but I dont think he was naturally brave, but it was rather he trusted me? In 3 years eventing he xc faulted 5 times - through rider error though more than anything.
That said, he had so much natural talent (but not the attitude to work) that jumping was incredibly easy for him - but he was too careful for xc in all honesty!
 
KatB said:
ETA I know a YR's Sjer (jumping YR grand prix) who is the spokkiest thing on 4 legs, so probably not "brave" in that sense, but will jump 1.40/1.50 fences even on a slightly duff stride... would he be brave? Or just incredibly "professional" about his job?
Click to expand...

I think they say that spooky horses can make brilliant showjumpers, as they don't want to touch stuff with their feet. I believe that Milton was a bit of a b*gger when it came to spooking, and he was ok at jumping :) In fact I think I read somewhere that he was rarely hacked out - although could be wrong :)
 
I have been told that sharper horses make better competition horses (SJ specific rider but he was refering to competition in general). Not so much bolshy or nasty but not a novice ride as they say. He said that the nice dopes were much more likely to leave a leg and not care that they clunked a pole. Not that you can't get some sweet natured sharp horses.
 
Connor who i had last year was the kindest horse anyone could meet never put a foot wrong was never nasty or pushy never nipped anyone or raised a foot oddly he would have this little girl at my yard ride her tricycle under his belly and he would not even stir he would sit with you for hours in the field and not see his friends just stay with you, he never tried to compeate for the hiarachy in the field apart from once when he first got there realised the mare was scary when angry and left it at that, but when asked to step up to the mark jump what ever xc and sj he would jump it, he may have had a few run outs but he was only 5 so you have to excuse that of him, but he would have made a fab event horse and you could never meet a horse so kind, all horses i know that have evented sussecfully have kind natures, my cousins horse does 2 * and is a true gentlmen and francis Whittingtons 4*horse sir percival may be strong and high spirited but is still a lovly horse to be around
just because they are not bold in personalities does not mean they are not bold in what they are asked to do
 
Not that mine is a grand prix horse by any stretch ;) he is a complete dope most of the time, but can be a little spooky ar*e if the mood take him (spinning on roads etc). I know I'm not jumping huge, but he rarely touches a pole - and hates it when he does :)
 
DarkHorseB said:
I don't believe a talented horse has to be a swine to handle any more than a talented person has to be a swine :)

If you take WFPs Moon Man he started off in a trekking centre in Sligo and seemed to be a totally genuine sort that all around him loved. I'm sure others will think of better examples!
Click to expand...

I've been to that 'trekking centre'. They know their stuff.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top