peanut
Well-Known Member
Lots of good advice above but just out of interest, why can't he be lunged?
Break failure in canter
- Thread starter Tonto_
- Start date
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
He has form for tanking off, doesn’t he.
An earlier post of yours on another thread :-
An earlier post of yours on another thread :-
Behavioural? Pain related? Mix of both?
Annagain
Well-Known Member
If all is well pain-wise, the thing that worked for my boy who really struggled with balance and would lean and rush as a result was an exercise my instructor calls the bow tie.
Start at (for example) B on the right rein. Go from B to A diagonally and do a 10m half circle left. As your front end hits the long side halt at 45 degrees to the track and do a couple of steps turn on the forehand until you're straight (this helps them not to motorbike around the corners) on the track. Go along the long side to B. At B do a 10m circle left then go diagonally to C where you do a half circle right back to the track, repeat the turn on the forehand and back along the long side to B and start again (you can put a 10m circle right in here if you need to regain a bit of control). We started doing this in walk . We then progressed to doing it mostly in walk but trotting where we left the track and coming back to walk on the track (so B-A in trot, walk the half circle on the short side, halt, few steps turn on the forehand until you're straight, walk to B, transition to trot for the circle, transition back to walk at B,then straight back to trot for the diagonal to C. Walk round the corner, halt, turn on the forehand, back to walk for the long side.) As we progressed we would start at B do the loop in trot, halt and TotF in the corner, trot back to B then pick up canter on the circle, back to trot at B then trot to C and around the corner, halt and TotF then trot on and start again. Once you're stopping the canter at B successfully, keep the canter going until C and back to trot, then halt in the corner. It worked really well for my boy as there were so many transitions and changes of direction he didn't know what was coming next so had to listen. The loops and circles also broke up the long side so he didn't have time to build up a head of steam in the early days. As we progressed we would actually add in lengthened strides on the long side but it took me a while to get him coming back to me nicely after going up a gear to manage that in a way where he could then cope with a fairly tight turn on the corner.
Start at (for example) B on the right rein. Go from B to A diagonally and do a 10m half circle left. As your front end hits the long side halt at 45 degrees to the track and do a couple of steps turn on the forehand until you're straight (this helps them not to motorbike around the corners) on the track. Go along the long side to B. At B do a 10m circle left then go diagonally to C where you do a half circle right back to the track, repeat the turn on the forehand and back along the long side to B and start again (you can put a 10m circle right in here if you need to regain a bit of control). We started doing this in walk . We then progressed to doing it mostly in walk but trotting where we left the track and coming back to walk on the track (so B-A in trot, walk the half circle on the short side, halt, few steps turn on the forehand until you're straight, walk to B, transition to trot for the circle, transition back to walk at B,then straight back to trot for the diagonal to C. Walk round the corner, halt, turn on the forehand, back to walk for the long side.) As we progressed we would start at B do the loop in trot, halt and TotF in the corner, trot back to B then pick up canter on the circle, back to trot at B then trot to C and around the corner, halt and TotF then trot on and start again. Once you're stopping the canter at B successfully, keep the canter going until C and back to trot, then halt in the corner. It worked really well for my boy as there were so many transitions and changes of direction he didn't know what was coming next so had to listen. The loops and circles also broke up the long side so he didn't have time to build up a head of steam in the early days. As we progressed we would actually add in lengthened strides on the long side but it took me a while to get him coming back to me nicely after going up a gear to manage that in a way where he could then cope with a fairly tight turn on the corner.
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Tonto_
Well-Known Member
Yep. On the ground as well if he doesn't want to do something, if I didn't wear gloves leading him I'd have no hands left!
He's been checked over fully to rule out pain so I'm pretty certain is behavioural
Tonto_
Well-Known Member
Cause he tanks off. He's scared of a lunge whip so I try without and he knows he's stronger than me so just pushes through with his shoulder and runs and runs and runs and runs in whichever direction he fancies. I'm scared he's going to get his legs tangled
Gloi
Too little time, too much to read.
What have you got on him ?
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Is there any chance of a video OP? It sounds like there is quite a lot going on ATM and you might not have the right help.
cauda equina
Well-Known Member
With my too onward bound horse I did lots of groundwork, including halting by 'Whoa' followed by a food reward when he complied
He went from very poor brakes when ridden to halting from any pace by voice alone
He went from very poor brakes when ridden to halting from any pace by voice alone
Tonto_
Well-Known Member
I tried in head collar, cavasson and bridle, I haven't tried with roller and side reins but I'm hesitant to as I don't want him hurting himself
Tonto_
Well-Known Member
I am always alone so don't have a way to video
Gloi
Too little time, too much to read.
Did you try the lunge rein over through and over the top of the head
Tonto_
Well-Known Member
Yes, on a bad day that's how I have to lead him
Red-1
I used to be decisive, now I'm not so sure...
Ah, the latter comments say a lot. It would have been highly unusual for the horse to be going beautifully otherwise, but tanking off in canter even when not in pain/not fresh.
I would not be so quick to discount pain, as tests you will have done will have excluded some things, but not pain. All explorations can do is identify conditions. If you block somewhere and the horse goes differently, then you have identified an issue in the place where the pain is. No difference can just mean the pain has not yet been found.
However, the canter is just the place where your issues become so big, it means control is lost. The issues are obviously there in other situations, just not magnified so much. IME, the issues are best tackled where they are still controllable.
So, lessons on ground behaviour. Lessons on lungeing. Lessons in walk, in trot. I would only re-visit the canter when everything else is better. Solve the problem where it starts, not where it is uncontrollable.
BTW, I am usually on my own when schooling. I simply set my phone recording and prop it vaguely pointing at the school and generally get a useful schooling aid type video.
I would not be so quick to discount pain, as tests you will have done will have excluded some things, but not pain. All explorations can do is identify conditions. If you block somewhere and the horse goes differently, then you have identified an issue in the place where the pain is. No difference can just mean the pain has not yet been found.
However, the canter is just the place where your issues become so big, it means control is lost. The issues are obviously there in other situations, just not magnified so much. IME, the issues are best tackled where they are still controllable.
So, lessons on ground behaviour. Lessons on lungeing. Lessons in walk, in trot. I would only re-visit the canter when everything else is better. Solve the problem where it starts, not where it is uncontrollable.
BTW, I am usually on my own when schooling. I simply set my phone recording and prop it vaguely pointing at the school and generally get a useful schooling aid type video.
AmyMay
Situation normal
Have you got a good instructor op?
ycbm
Overwhelmed
What does 'checked over fully' mean? Who by? I'm repeating myself, but you can't check a neck or back without x rays. Lots of other conditions would need diagnostics too. If he's thick set, then PSSM and PSD would be high on my list
Has a vet seen the horse and assessed its movement and reassured you and the owners that these issues are behavioural?
If he genuinely is healthy, then it sounds to me as if he is too much for you to manage by yourself, and he needs to go off to a remedial trainer for a while to have his manners on the ground, basic walk trot and canter in the school and hacking out established.
.
JFTDWS
+++ Out of Cheese Error +++
Do you not have a fence around your arena to balance a phone or camera on?
I would be really concerned there is something underlying here - you really can't have ruled out pain unless the owners have spent thousands on diagnostics (and even then it's not impossible). This horse sounds like it has serious issues.
I agree with Red's post earlier - horses just don't work well in walk and trot and then behave like you describe in canter. Unbalanced horses generally show signs of it in all paces, even if it's worse in canter. I would seriously advocate getting a really good trainer in to help you - and if they advise looking for a physical issue and the owners are unwilling, I'd walk away from the loan.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
^^ This, you don't need another person.
I'm another to add to the good trainer chorus, probably someone who can get on and feel what is happening too.
I'm another to add to the good trainer chorus, probably someone who can get on and feel what is happening too.
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
I think you are sadly wasting your time with this horse. Give it back. Find something that is suitable and can be ridden.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Ah TBF I keep forgetting it's a loan/share situation. I think I said hand it back last time!
ycbm
Overwhelmed
Mule
Well-Known Member
I agree with the others about ending the loan. It would be crazy to spend
money on trainers and veterinary diagnostics when the horse isn't your responsibility. At any rate the owner may not be willing to get vets involved again. You can't pay for it yourself.
money on trainers and veterinary diagnostics when the horse isn't your responsibility. At any rate the owner may not be willing to get vets involved again. You can't pay for it yourself.
emilylou
Well-Known Member
I used to ride a horse like this when I freelance rode and whether there is a physical issue or not, I agree that it is probably best to end the loan if you are riding for enjoyment.
The horse I rode was a very opinionated welsh D who was built like a tank and has the widest chest I have ever seen which subsequently made cantering a corner very challenging for him. If you sat still and balanced you could get him to move beautifully but give him an inch and he would take the ****. We had top dressage trainers ride him and he had physio etc, physically was the most robust sound horse and I’m certain his behaviour was personality not pain. For example, he would behave so much better being ridden in the morning compared to the afternoon when he was expecting his dinner, and when jumping (which he loved) you could ride him in a lovely, soft balanced contact. I rode him at county level showing and he did well, I could get a tune out of him but I would not say I enjoyed riding him. He taught me huge amounts but his attitude did not make it pleasant. Horses who behave like this are either in pain or require to be ridden by someone who can get a tune out of the quirks as they are unforgiving of rider error, and even if you can get a tune, it usually takes years and isn’t very fun.
Link featuring said cob and me having to work very very hard!
The horse I rode was a very opinionated welsh D who was built like a tank and has the widest chest I have ever seen which subsequently made cantering a corner very challenging for him. If you sat still and balanced you could get him to move beautifully but give him an inch and he would take the ****. We had top dressage trainers ride him and he had physio etc, physically was the most robust sound horse and I’m certain his behaviour was personality not pain. For example, he would behave so much better being ridden in the morning compared to the afternoon when he was expecting his dinner, and when jumping (which he loved) you could ride him in a lovely, soft balanced contact. I rode him at county level showing and he did well, I could get a tune out of him but I would not say I enjoyed riding him. He taught me huge amounts but his attitude did not make it pleasant. Horses who behave like this are either in pain or require to be ridden by someone who can get a tune out of the quirks as they are unforgiving of rider error, and even if you can get a tune, it usually takes years and isn’t very fun.
Link featuring said cob and me having to work very very hard!
lottiemoo
Member
Personally, If I was in your shoes, I would end the loan contract before something nasty happens to you or the cob. Loaning a horse is suppose to be for your enjoyment, it shouldn't be a struggle!
However, if you are determined to continue with him, I would have a full vet work-up, not just a quick trot up and down and a poke about. Cobs are very stoic and good at just getting on with the job whilst experiencing pain, so if it is a pain reaction, he is in lots of pain somewhere.
When all that is fine, I would find a new trainer who is able to manage him and help you and the cob right from the start. I would abandon riding him completely until he is 100% good to lead in hand and manage on the ground. If he doesn't respect you on the ground, he wont respect you in the saddle. Then I would re-introduce lunging and teach him to halt, walk, trot, canter on your voice and also walking him down the road in hand so that leaving the yard for a hack become a normal everyday activity. Only then, when I knew he was well behaved and respectful in all situations would I get back on him. I would be inclined to only hack him to begin with. Then start off slowly in the school. Always be ready to take the training back a step or two if things start going wrong.
Its a long, slow road, but you have to get the basics in hand before moving on to riding and cantering etc.
However, if you are determined to continue with him, I would have a full vet work-up, not just a quick trot up and down and a poke about. Cobs are very stoic and good at just getting on with the job whilst experiencing pain, so if it is a pain reaction, he is in lots of pain somewhere.
When all that is fine, I would find a new trainer who is able to manage him and help you and the cob right from the start. I would abandon riding him completely until he is 100% good to lead in hand and manage on the ground. If he doesn't respect you on the ground, he wont respect you in the saddle. Then I would re-introduce lunging and teach him to halt, walk, trot, canter on your voice and also walking him down the road in hand so that leaving the yard for a hack become a normal everyday activity. Only then, when I knew he was well behaved and respectful in all situations would I get back on him. I would be inclined to only hack him to begin with. Then start off slowly in the school. Always be ready to take the training back a step or two if things start going wrong.
Its a long, slow road, but you have to get the basics in hand before moving on to riding and cantering etc.
Mule
Well-Known Member
Good point about stoicism.