Breaking a tricky baby.

[jhoward]

my horse was 3 in june this year, he came to me with a few handling issues,

he was a sod to turn out.. so they used a chain in mouth on a slip head, for example.
the groom was scared of him.. im saying this to mention how bad he could be..
the previous owner delivered him to me, but he wouldnt do anything alone so bought a companion that had to go into a stable beside him aswell (had another horse in for him.)

anyway.. the leading part.. ive had no issues used a dually (im not fluffy) a lunge line and held a whip.

this horse was shown up to 2 and very sucessful.

my biggest issue has been a bridle .. getting it near his ears. we are now at a point where i can pull his ears about, bend them, look inside ect.

he lunges, long reins, is very bold as a baby.

BUT we get to breaking.

ive had a friend lean over him both sides after me doing the ground work in the stable. we take it to a school with me on the ground. all good.
BUT if some one else is by his head he is a sod he has no respect or trust for person on the ground.
so..
I do work with other people handling him. lunging.. loading alone, leading.

we come back to breaking and im stuck.

i can completely sit on him when his laid down, i can put weight on him any time. i can pull myself up to leaning across him.

if im by his head i can have friend leaning over him and walking about. but we go to move on and he wont have it. i have a freind with kids.. i can trust the horse in the stable with 3 kids, but if we go to put one up on him he freaks out. ie ears back and shots backwards

he is not nasty, ive never seen him put his ears back barring going to stick a kid on him. when i started with the bridling/ears issues at first hed shoot back poop a lot and shake. although he can be rude its a genuine fear.

im now at a point i want to break him... well id like a rider on and a wander about. but.. im scared of his reaction., id like to be the 1st one on him but feel im a bit heavy and with his trust in me i need to be on the ground.
he is a big horse.. 3.. 16.2 in an 11 inch saddle 6"9 rug but still looking like a baby!

my thoughts are leave him till spring, do more longreining and ground work, then maybe hop on myself. (not willing to risk any one else.) but then the other side of me says this horse needs to get working! ive got a few people willing to get on him but im not happy as know how he can react, my weight issues, im not that fat but feel to a baby that needs to figure out balance etc and still growing its not fair or right. I want to produce this horse to perfection, he is the best horse ive ever had, and the one that the answer is no to when selling is mentioned. but again i need to crack on with him,
I thought about sending him away to be broken but with he nervous side im not willing to take the chance (am i being to fluffy?)

sorry for the ramble ive broken in may horses but never one as tricky as him.
he is destined to be a show horse so other people have to be able ride him! in general he looks mature but a picture of him in tack makes him look like a 2 yr...

july this year..

this weekend with tack on.. sorry rubbish pic

 

[Loch_ness_monster]

I have no advice as far as breaking him but I do question sticking a child on a tricky youngster who even you can't sit on....

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I would PM Janet George, she always has hugely sensible advice about breaking tricky horses.

He's a very smart lad.

 

[jhoward]

I have no advice as far as breaking him but I do question sticking a child on a tricky youngster who even you can't sit on....

you may roll eyes but theory was it was a tiny child, mother was holding and i was at head, the horse knew the child, she can stand on steps to groom him and horse will look after,

the theory was rider astride horse should cope as minimum weight.

tbh ive done it before babies build the weight up. its not i think the weight/rider sitting up that is causing the issue,

as i said, i can sit astride when he is lying down, on my own i can mount off a block to lean across.

dont panic! om trying to be as kind/gentle on the horse as possible.

after the kid being put on.. 2 people tried to just lean across him .. he wouldnt have it.. but with me he was fine!

now as nice as it is he trusts me we need to move on from this.

oh and kid had hat on.. and was held by mother...

 

[jhoward]

I would PM Janet George, she always has hugely sensible advice about breaking tricky horses.

He's a very smart lad.

thank you i shall do that.

 

[Trinity Fox]

I may have read this wrong but if the horse is reacting to child being put on him why not try adult, if he is allowing the leaning etc doesnt sound a weight issue.

If comfortable with adult doing the leaning over I would proceed this way I have never put a child on unbroken horse so dont know if this would be an issue in a horses proper breaking process.

I may be wrong but if the horse is used to adult handling and leaning over, maybe child is confusing the horse, can the horse hear but not see child .

It is not something I would try but I find the ones I break rsepond best to someone they are comfrotable with.
They cannot build up a rapport with a child as horse and child does not understand what is going on.

 

[Trinity Fox]

Sorry just read fine with you not with others, well just have to persevere I only work with mine but have to bring in others as I have found out if you are the only one who does them they will shy away from others.

If they are well brought up it doesnt take long for them to accept other people.

 

[jhoward]

TF he kew the kid well, she is 6, she will stand on steps in the stable to groom him and he is so gental with her, the idea was i wanted even weight across him. he is ok with her being lifted up but them moment she goes s=to sit he says no.. we done work of lifing her her.. above eye level etc.

i can do it, i can stand on anything above him so its not that, ive done the mounting work off a stirupp.

im happy to get on and see what happens but my issue is that if he freaks out he will not respect the person on the ground.

I think i need to reverse the trust.. if that makes sence he needs to respect who is at his head., but he doesnt, now im all for giving a horse a slap but you honestly can not hit him near his head, anywhere else he doesnt care, unless its his butt.. im not talking about hitting but a lunge whip and a come on trot in the field.. he will warn then kick out.. which to me is fair enough.

what im not willing to do is rush him, or to go for the sit it out and try, i want this horse to broken acccepting not by force or you must do.

 

[Festive_Felicitations]

If I was in your situation I would just get on my elf in an arena or round yard. Don't worry about your weight, if you ride well and can sit down lightly you are better than some one 'lighter' who thumps down in the saddle. It not like you are planning on doing 2hr hacks, 5min won't hurt him! And if he trusts you that is way more important!!

I assume that he responds well to the voice commands to walk, trot, canter & importantly whoa! on the lunge? And that you have done all the desensitising stand next to him and flap & bang on the saddle from both sides etc so that he is used to stuff?

Lunge him one day till he is tieredish then just quietly hop on, give him a big pat and hop off. Carrots and pack it in. If you are worried have someone watching/around incase it goes pear shaped. Slowly build up the time you are sat on board (if he starts to tense up/worry hop off) and when you think he is comfortable ask him to walk on.
I've broken quite a few in on my own, and while it is harder and a bit more nerve wracking it is not impossible.

With reagards to trusting others I would just rope friends into doing groundwork with him over the winter and hopefully he will start to realise that not all people are out to eat him. Good luck! and keep us posted

 

[aregona]

I had trouble backing my youngster this year.
He was fine with me on the ground and a friend on him no problem. As soon as it came to me backing him properly he run backwards. I realised he just didn't understand the reverse rolls and was confused whether he should listen to me on top or the person by his head. So I took the person away from his head and went to a very small enclosure and taught him to move forward.whilst I was leant over him by using my arms. It was tricky but I leaned over, held the reins low down by his shoulders and flapped my arms almost like a chicken to get him to move forwards off my 'legs'. It only took 2 days and he was then happily moving forwards when I asked him to. I then took a big gamble but was sure he was settled enough, I took him to the lane I use for hacking with my mum on my lovely quiet grey and just went for a ride for 5 mins, he was so happy looking around and following Udo that he wasn't worried in the slightest.
I should add I did sit astride before I took him for a hack and to begin with he did attempt to go backwards but I would swing my leg back over so I was leaning again and start my flapping business again and he would soon go forwards again.
A little different I know but if you have a small safe area it may be worth just testing the water with him on your own. Obviously with someone to watch your back. Sorry for rambling as this may not be any good to you in the slightest. Good luck x

 

[Vickijay]

I did one of mine by myself in the summer. I bred her though so she didn't have any trust issues and had been with me since day 1.*

I practiced getting on and off for a while till that was old hat and boring. Then I did some lunging/long reining/leading round the lanes with a very sensible friend. Then a while later went on the same leading wander but with my hat on and her tacked up, led her half way and then as she was being good just hopped on and she hacked back home, next to her friend but with me on board. She was ace. Did the same around the fields at home and again she just went with the sensible friend. Did a couple of days lunging her in the arena and then getting on and practicing walking and standing. A couple more hacks out. Then did going in the school with no lunging, moved on to little trots and by this point she was like a normal horse!

I felt like you about my weight too but everyone said it was fine (inc brutally honest people!) and I figured I wouldn't be on her for long and it's her and I that have the good relationship and that that was better to get her started. When she moved on to doing proper trotting and cantering I got my super skinny friend on her but by that point there was no drama.*

I think it will take longer without help from the ground but if you do have a good level of trust with your horse that if your careful, take small steps each day, make sure there is someone near by (for safety's sake!) that it is possible to back them quietly by yourself.*

There have also been alot of posts about how good janetgeorge is so failing trying yourself I would talk to her.

Good luck

 

[siennamum]

I am also horrified that you would put a 6 year old on a horse you are nervous about getting on tbh.

In your place I would send away to someone v experienced like Janet G, if funds are there. If you are able to get another good experienced friend to take your place at the head then you could do the backing yourself - I had to do this with my youngster, he is suspicious of strangers and so we had him used to the 2 of us. Another option might be to back him while he is being led off a v v v steady other horse, not tried it, but maybe an option.

 

[AengusOg]

Your horse is not ready. He may be next week, or in two months, but he's not ready just now.

You would be wise to teach him to yield his head round to gentle, firm pressure from each rein when working him on the ground. That way, when you get on him, you can have his head round toward his nearside ribs. This will mean that he can't run off in a straight line and will circle rather than run back. If you do have to get off, you will have a safe place to land as his quarters will be moving away from you. If you can ride at all you should be safe enough.

 

[jhoward]

I am also horrified that you would put a 6 year old on a horse you are nervous about getting on tbh.

In your place I would send away to someone v experienced like Janet G, if funds are there. If you are able to get another good experienced friend to take your place at the head then you could do the backing yourself - I had to do this with my youngster, he is suspicious of strangers and so we had him used to the 2 of us. Another option might be to back him while he is being led off a v v v steady other horse, not tried it, but maybe an option.

i think you read wrong, first of all i am not nervous of getting on him, i am nervous of his reaction and screwing him up.

as for the kid it was in a stable with mum holding her he is not the sort of horse that will go in to a mad panic just rush backwards and skake.. tbh ive often used kids on babies to get them used to weight whilst preparing from them in later years to be broken.

he is not the sort of horse to be sent away, and although i considered it because of what he can be like i just wouldnt risk it..

 

[jhoward]

Your horse is not ready. He may be next week, or in two months, but he's not ready just now.

You would be wise to teach him to yield his head round to gentle, firm pressure from each rein when working him on the ground. That way, when you get on him, you can have his head round toward his nearside ribs. This will mean that he can't run off in a straight line and will circle rather than run back. If you do have to get off, you will have a safe place to land as his quarters will be moving away from you. If you can ride at all you should be safe enough.

I also think he is not ready but then part of me says i need to get him working,

he does yield to pressue as you describe.

i have done so much ground work setting him up to be ridden that its all there, he can be mounted off the stirrup to be lent across, very good with left rights and stands, and moves off of pressure on the girth line (prep for when legs get used.)

he stands stock still by the mounting block.

just all the little things that i think will make him a good horse. and also to make the breaking and riding away staight forward.. or so i hoped.

 

[ihatework]

If you are still planning on breaking him now then I wouldn't do it yet. He is 3 and weak, he doesn't *need* to be ridden yet.

I'd do the winter as you have already been doing, ear touching, handling, long lining, leaning over by as many different people as possible. Maybe consider using a straw dummy.

Then in a few months, you hop up. Once he readily accepts that then introduce new riders as soon as possible. FWIW I also think it's pretty irresponsible to be trying with a 6yo.

 

[BBP]

I am by no means experienced having only backed one horse and done a lot of things I would do differently. He was definitely tricky! One thing I would say is that if you have a gut instinct that your horse isn't ready, turn him away or spend the winter on ground work and desensitisation and try again in the good weather in the spring...all this wild and windy weather isn't condusive to some horses staying quiet and calm! I wish I had gone slower with my horse, even at rising 4 he wasn't physically or mentally ready, go with your gut if you think he needs more time.

 

[jhoward]

no i dont need to ride him yet, what id wanted to do was have him backed able to walk around and then leave him until the spring, I had already decided that with winter and anything i can do being very intermittant it wasnt the right time to break him properley.

i am producing him to be a show horse and again had already decided that he wouldnt be out under saddle until he was 5.. giving me a year more than some would think was needed.

RE the ground work and weather.. we go out in all weathers hes actully very good and although will look at things if i say go on he will have a snort but keep going, and he is not a OMG the leave just blew at me. he is a very bold baby.
he is also very quick to pick up on things.

I do try and get other people to do things with him, but im very aware he can be a handful (he splatted/booted someone when i first had him although partley her fault he still did it.)

so yes more to work on and its hard taking a step back especially when he just has no respect/trust for any one else. dont get me wrong he is not nasty he loves the kids and they spend hours grooming him and playing with him and he is so gentle towards them.

 

[kerilli]

i would give him longer. i would make sure he was TOTALLY polite about having someone standing at his head/shoulder, not at all bargy or rude any more.
you should not have to hit a horse 'near its head' to get it to respect having someone at the front end.
tbh i'd do a lot more groundwork with him, and get other people to as well, so he's totally respectful of anyone handling him.
if he thinks he can get away with rudeness then a rider on top might only exacerbate his behaviour.
i would NOT use a child as a first backer, ever, even for one i expected to be a doddle. i would find a good small light jockey, they are around. i'd have the person he trusts and respects most (you?) at his head, i'd take it very slowly and steadily, lots of praise and rewards.

 

[kerilli]

just remembered something else.
i'd look very very very carefully at the saddle you're using. i had a very tricky homebred to back years ago, he was fine in every other way but absolutely electric under saddle (fitted by "Master Saddler").
in retrospect, i think the saddle was hugely at fault, but i didn't know enough at the time to question the saddler's opinion, and believed him over the horse... for a while, anyway.

 

[jhoward]

thanks k, and i agree he is rude with my friend that handles him with him its not about hitting him, you certinally cant hit him around the face even am arm bought up he will react to, thats not how i work with him, its been about this is my space that is your space. what he used to do was pretty much walk over you with his shoulder, which to me was bloody rude and at 16.2 he is no small beast.

what i find he does now if any one else is leading him is he will start off walking faster then before you know it hes dragging you. again being very aware of his turnout/bring in issues when i first had him i used a dually with him and if i was on the road (had to go up and down a busy road to fields) i had a lunge line and whip just for safety. once i knew he was ok with traffic and scary objects i let friend start leading him, and the difference was well intresting, he march off, and start snorting and looking at everything! with me he walks beside on a loose rein and just gets on with it.

see its all these little quirks that bring me back to a rider on board.

re the saddle.. it fits pretty well if im lying across him its loose around the shoulders and not touching withers etc.. BUT ive been using it for a few months and he has changed shape etc.. so yes will re look at it.. on sunday i had a freind leaning across him and went for a wander and he was fine.

i dont have a school to work in so this is another factor. do have fields etc.

but again as somebody said especially in the tacked up piccie he looks very weak and babyish.

 

[Polotash]

If he trusts you then get on him, weight doesn't matter as much as trust.

Oh, and when I was little my Mum legged me up onto everything, yearlings up, so I'm a fan of little kids doing backing!

 

[jellybaby2]

Have you considered a dummy?

My ex YO had a horse over from Ireland to break. He was a nightmare, and they just couldn't crack him (this is a lady who is sent literally hundreds of horses to break). In the end, they tried a dummy - strapped it to the horse, and set it free round the arena; he went ballistic, but once he had it out of his sytem he was fine and dandy - never looked back.

Another really hard one was a very very quirky 14.2. They ended up calling in a South American chap who did breaking in in a very old fashioned but fair way (all whilst wearing a bobble hat!) and he was excellent. I guess we'd call him a rough rider, but he did the job and got the job done and the pony was no worse off for it.

JB x

 

[jhoward]

yes id considered the dummy route, but im not sure that is the problem, he is fine with a person being higher than him. have done loads of work with mounting blocks and people being stood on gates, round bales etc... anything that towers above him.
I did consider a monty roberts demo but i fear that for this horse the pressure and quickness may be to much for him.

am i maybe just worrying to much?

as i keep saying ive done so much ground work as prep, right down to postion of leg aids and moving away from pressure etc so in theory when ridden and asked to walk on he understands about moving his body away from legs etc.
I feel it is all there but then i think crack on and my niggling doubts of his nervous side and how he can react comes back.

his nervous side.. when i first had him and went in to bridle him he shot to the back of the stable trembled and constantly pood. the issue was his ears and its taken me a long time to get to where i am now, i am now at the point of the kids/friends touching his ears. but it took me a long time that day to get close enough to figure out where the problem was.

he came to be as not being able to do anything alone, well with much work he is happy in the stable alone and have started loading him alone etc, so the work ive covered is huge .. its just this sticking ppoint.

said horse is also my pride and joy and i really dont want to mess him up or do things wrong.

 

[jellybaby2]

If you've done all the ground work, then IMHO I'd just crack on - and get him done, and be 'firm' if you have to.... I'd consider a professional 'breaker' - I've heard of lots of horses that have been quirky to break in - and they end up going on to be the good ones!

Good Luck!

 

[Spyda]

If he were mine (and I have a 16.3 WBxTB 4 yr old mare very similar in temperament and handlability (sp??!) as yours by sounds of it), I'd not be too concerned at this stage about him accepting other riders. He's obviously got issues from before, and has finally built trust in YOU; so through the anxious time of backing and becoming accepting of carrying a rider, I think you shouldn't worry excessively about your weight and just do the mounting and basic ridden work yourself. Then turn him away for the winter but continue with in-hand work and others working with him from the ground to build his confidence in all humans. I'm ashamed to confess that I'm majorly overweight ATM (picture, 5'2 and 13 Stone) and would definitely have preferred a lighter rider to back mine but I believe mine's been 100% happier having me do the job than if I'd sent her away or gotten someone else in. I am sure someone experienced would have coped fine backing her, but I'm also positive my horse has been less stressed having me do it at home.

I know you plan to show him under saddle and need him accepting of other riders, but it's very early days for him. Don't try to run before you can walk. Concentrate on working on the trusting relationship YOU'VE built with him to back him and get him going. Worry later about introducing him to 'other riders'.

Best of luck, I genuinely think you'll be absolutely fine

 

[ihatework]

Okay so in summary -

You have a nervous horse with trust issues and the fear manifests in bolshy behaviour in part.
Previous head/ear issues are being addressed and improving to the point you feel this is not the primary issue.
He is gradually accepting other people around him and behaving better.

You believe the primary issue now for backing is accepting weight?

You are also in the situation whereby you have no decent enclosed breaking area and are therefore confined to either stable or paddock.

I agree with your reluctance to send him away.

In my eyes you have 2 options
1) pay a decent 'rough' rider to come in and sit on while you hold the front end.
2) you have someone you trust hold the front end and you get on.

My personal opinion is that this is best done in the stable, although doing that is not without risks. To that end given 'risk' and the fact that your horse has trust in you already I would say you should consider suiting and booting up, and getting on yourself to start with.

He may be nervous/panic but eventually he is going to have to accept weight on his back. Once he is over the initial 'issue' then introduce other riders.

However if you are at all nervous about the prospect then revert to option 1)

 

[jhoward]

i think if im going to do it myself im better off working completely alone and having someone keeping an eye just incase, i do have a small paddock i can work in, although i almost feel id better off taking him out on the lonreins ditching the long reins and hopping on going up a hill! i could also have a nanny horse out with me to do that..

he is confident alone, ive done a lot of work with him going out alone, working alone etc.

I dont think the stable is a safe place, although ive sat completely on him whilst he has been lying down (he didnt care carried on snoozing) if he reacts he does it at speed and will happily mow a person over. now as much as he gets a rollocking for this it has to be accepted it is done in fear.

trying to pull his mane the other day.. again i was told he was a sod, so was being so gentle and doing a few bits at a time then giving mane a good rub etc, his responce was to stick his head up over me and walk through me.

we did in the end stand nicely with just head shaking.

a rough rider may be an idea but honestly i think from everyones posts it needs to be, tbh if he wants to have a buck or shoot off im the most likely to be able to handle/sit ride it out lol!

generally when i break my method would be to get on stay down and get straight off the the otherside, building up to being sat up and on for a short time then asking horse to walk on. but i feel with him that would worry him..

leaning/mounting work has been done on both sides of him also the offside he was more warry than the near, so went back a few steps and done a load of work on the offside in general.

 

[ihatework]

Good luck.
I do get the feeling you are just going to do it your way (which is fine), but does confuse me as to the purpose of the post in the first place.

 

[Bubbles]

Having spent thousands rebreaking one that had very similar issues, one thing I would definitely advise against is turning away before this issue is resolved, at least in part. Mine was given longer to mature after several disastrous attempts (previous owner) at backing, only for him to return much much worse, and bigger and stronger with it. I would also advise very strongly against using a dummy of any kind, they have their place, but not with a horse like this and certainly not if you don't have a school in which to contain a potential disaster should horse completely lose the plot.

Good luck, I don't envy you.