Breaking in question!?

[Fools Motto]

I feel a little stupid for asking this, as normally I know the answer - each horse is different and you 'just know'... BUT
I'm currently in the process of breaking in a large warmblood gelding. He is a good 17/17.1, and officially not yet 4 (as in he will be within the next few weeks!) He came to us very much raw, but with a brilliant laid back attitude. Nothing has fazed him. Lunges, longlines, accepts saddles, bridles, bits, rugs, boots and general faffing about. He is very balanced for his size, and is good off the voice commands, although can be almost too laid back!
He has been sat on now about 6 times, 4 of which have been on the lunge, where we have progressed to walking, turning a little, stopping, walking on and last 2 days trotting. It WAS all going smoothly, but ''other person'' did get ejected yesterday halfway through right rein trot. He didn't explode as such, just got suddenly very excited, and did a spin. It was all a bit quick to do anything about it. Poor other person felt very shaken by it. Anyway, I got on, and repeated the trot exercise without hitting the deck (thank god!) and the horse was non the worse. He didn't get frightened, and all in all it was one of those things that can happen. I rode him again today, repeating the whole lunge, walk, trot and halt process. He was very good, little dull of the leg one moment and a bit too keen the next, but that will come with time. A little growl when he 'thought about it', and we are all very pleased with him.
So, (sorry - long) the question. When do we go it alone? (no lunge line). Is there a need for the line when being ridden at this stage? What are its benefits? When we go upto canter, re-use it, or will it just get in the way?
Thoughts and ideas please!

 

[be positive]

I get off the lunge as soon as possible, if the person on the ground is exceptionally good they may help but often do more harm than good if they are in the wrong place or react too slowly, I have never cantered any young horse on the lunge with a person on, the horses are rarely balanced enough to cope with turning at that stage.
I would put a neck strap on and move on without the lunge rein attached just have someone nearby who can be there to push him forward from the voice if required and to give confidence if needed.

 

[Fools Motto]

I get off the lunge as soon as possible, if the person on the ground is exceptionally good they may help but often do more harm than good if they are in the wrong place or react too slowly, I have never cantered any young horse on the lunge with a person on, the horses are rarely balanced enough to cope with turning at that stage.
I would put a neck strap on and move on without the lunge rein attached just have someone nearby who can be there to push him forward from the voice if required and to give confidence if needed.

Yeah, that's pretty much backed up my theory too. Thanks. Just hope the other person has the courage to go it alone! I shall be confident in my suggestion tomorrow!

 

[rowan666]

I must have odd methods of breaking as ive never broken any of mine in on lunge! We break in by hacking being led from another pony once all ground work is done and go from there. Non of mine have ever seen the inside of the school in first few mnths of breaking because i want them to be relaxed and enjoy/look forward to being ridden, not ascociate it with hard work, but admittedly im not producing eventers just happy hackers If he knows voice commands/understands basic aids then why are you still on the lunge anyway, you never know what hes capable of if you dont give him the opportunity to shpw you

 

[PorkChop]

I never do this stage at all tbh. I certainly would be getting him out behind a nanny before he gets bored.

 

[TheMule]

Out hacking with a sensible older horse asap- much easier and better for everyone all round

 

[Fools Motto]

Hacking is rubbish! (he isn't mine and destined for dressage btw). We have horrid roads, and very heavy traffic. We are planning to box him up and take him to the hills, but do need a few more go,stop and steer sessions first - not to mention a good nanny!

 

[Stroppy Mare]

My youngster wasn't lunged per se but long reined on circles, and straight lines. Within 4 weeks of commencing 'work' I had ridden her round an open field loose. She's voice trained, and now responds well to leg too, but was never ridden on the lunge.

She's now walking mostly in a natural outline in walk and trot (after 2.5 weeks of ridden work) and hacking down the road and back with a sane horse to follow her, and also alone (but that's considerably scarier, esp like today when a mass of pigeons take off as were passing and scare her!). Haven't yet done more than about 20 mins hack though.

 

[Gamebird]

I break all mine in on my own so never ride on the lunge. I also hack them on their own, but I start with familiar routes that they have been long-reined round several times so that there is nothing new other than having the person on their back rather than behind them.

 

[Under-the-radar]

Destined for dressage or not, I would still want to get out hacking. Teaches them where their feet are and to deal with things going on around them. I wouldn't want to be taking a horse to shows that hadn't had the experiences out hacking to deal with stuff going on.

The only ones I ride on the lunge are the ones that I know are going to explode, but usually only for a circle or to til I know we have gone past the exploding stage. But with the type of horse you are describing OP, I would just get a neck strap and kick on

 

[Patterdale]

I must have odd methods of breaking as ive never broken any of mine in on lunge! We break in by hacking being led from another pony once all ground work is done and go from there. Non of mine have ever seen the inside of the school in first few mnths of breaking because i want them to be relaxed and enjoy/look forward to being ridden, not ascociate it with hard work, but admittedly im not producing eventers just happy hackers If he knows voice commands/understands basic aids then why are you still on the lunge anyway, you never know what hes capable of if you dont give him the opportunity to shpw you

I never do this stage at all tbh. I certainly would be getting him out behind a nanny before he gets bored.

Out hacking with a sensible older horse asap- much easier and better for everyone all round

All of the above. If you genuinely can't access any hacking then I don't know. Sorry!

 

[MagicMelon]

I have skipped the lunge stage completely. I'm backing mine totally on my own though, I would have loved some help but hey ho, just have to do what I can. I did the usual lungeing and long-reining thing then started getting on her in the stable and trying to move about a little (as much as you can in a 15ft x 16ft space with low rafters!). Then I fenced off a little square in the yard and walked about in there (just using voice commands to begin with and slowly bringing in the leg), making it a little bigger each time. I got to a biggish space and began a few strides of trot a few days ago but she got a bit tight the other night for some reason, she does have the occasional day when she's a bit frisky, so we have had to go back a bit just to keep her happy and we're in a smaller space again. I obviously don't want her to get a scare or something so I'd rather do that than have a massive explosion (especially when I'm on my own as often my partner isn't even home, my toddler is in bed and I live in the middle of nowhere so I have to be more cautious than normal!). I also have no school, only a grass paddock which doesn't help. I should say that I've never ridden any horse EVER on the lunge anyway, all past horses I've backed I usually had someone lead the horse in walk the first few times but first trot and canter etc. was off the lead.

If I had a school, which it sounds like you do, I'd just get going off the lunge now. I personally wouldn't canter on the lunge I don't think just because they're rarely balanced enough.

 

[TarrSteps]

I.generally don't answer these questions as I think the most important thing is to have a system you're confident in and comfortable with.

But the 'must hack asap or all is lost' thing is simply not true. If it was horses in many parts of the world - including some of the best horse producing countries - would never get backed, let alone amount to anything. I've certainly taken loads of horses to competitions that have never done any more hacking than going around farm fields, if that.

Re longeing, I really hate being longed on young horses unless the person on the end of the line is very experienced and the one actually in charge of the process. (If you're working together someone has to be in charge, ideally the person who has done the groundwork.) I have done the vast majority of the horses I've started (into 3 figures) alone and even if I have help prefer them just to lead and walk with the horse, then back up into the middle of the circle.

I don't agree that you're doomed because you can't hack but I would say you're better off getting off the longe asap. I would never canter a young horse for the first time on the longe!

 

[cundlegreen]

I must have odd methods of breaking as ive never broken any of mine in on lunge! We break in by hacking being led from another pony once all ground work is done and go from there. Non of mine have ever seen the inside of the school in first few mnths of breaking because i want them to be relaxed and enjoy/look forward to being ridden, not ascociate it with hard work, but admittedly im not producing eventers just happy hackers If he knows voice commands/understands basic aids then why are you still on the lunge anyway, you never know what hes capable of if you dont give him the opportunity to shpw you

Finally, the voice of reason!!!

I break all mine in on my own so never ride on the lunge. I also hack them on their own, but I start with familiar routes that they have been long-reined round several times so that there is nothing new other than having the person on their back rather than behind them.

Same here. All mine I break on my own. Old fashioned longreining out on hacks, backing in the yard, then longrein out, take off the reins, and ride back. NEVER have had a horse try to buck when backed, or at any stage. You are asking for an incident on the lunge IMO, as the horse gets out of balance or bored or both. Its all about making things fun for them, not hard work at this stage. The brakes and steering are done on the longreins, where voice commands can be a godsend later on. I talk to mine all the time when riding babies, because if I'm talking, then I'm breathing, and I'm relaxed. Simples!

 

[Nudibranch]

As above, longrein all the way unless there is a very good reason not to. As for canter, I dont even think about it for at least 6 months. A balanced, free, swinging walk and eventually trot are far more important and the only way is time and preferably some hill work. Then again I tend to keep mine for life so like them to develop slowly and last forever.

 

[TarrSteps]

I keep meaning to ask this. . .for those who go straight out, no longeing, no work in the school, how have you found that has worked with super sharp/forward dressage types. I'm keen on having brakes and steering at all paces before doing things like going out into traffic and I'm interested that so many people are breaking commercially, presumably producing competition horses, without any work in the school. Sorry for the derail but I keep meaning to ask. I've never worked on a professional backing/production yard that didn't at least have a pen. That said, with the exception of racehorses and polo ponies, I've not ponied much either.

The bucking thing I agree with - if that's happening you have a flaw in the system. Tbf, the OP's horse isn't bucking though.

 

[be positive]

I keep meaning to ask this. . .for those who go straight out, no longeing, no work in the school, how have you found that has worked with super sharp/forward dressage types. I'm keen on having brakes and steering at all paces before doing things like going out into traffic and I'm interested that so many people are breaking commercially, presumably producing competition horses, without any work in the school. Sorry for the derail but I keep meaning to ask. I've never worked on a professional backing/production yard that didn't at least have a pen. That said, with the exception of racehorses and polo ponies, I've not ponied much either.

The bucking thing I agree with - if that's happening you have a flaw in the system. Tbf, the OP's horse isn't bucking though.

I was wondering much the same having read the answers to the OP, I have never ponied apart from one that was proving very sensitive and it helped him get used to seeing someone above him, as for riding straight out onto a busy road with no idea how a horse will react that may be fine if working with your own horse over a longish period of time but however much prep work has been done there is no guarantee it will transfer to ridden work.
If there is absolutely no time pressure then I suppose it is easier to pick quiet times of day but in a commercial environment it is not so easy, most of the ones I have started need to be home in a reasonable time with the basics in place, usually walk, trot and canter in the school and happily hacking around with a nanny horse, the brakes and steering in place and easy to mount being priorities, refining it all takes far longer but getting a good foundation is important and the main criteria is a confident young horse that can go home and enjoy learning new things.

Everyone has a system, usually this requires some flexibility, I have only lunged a few with a rider on, usually ponies being sat on by someone other than myself just to make sure all goes well and have a degree of control, I prefer to be in control of my own destiny and if the groundwork has been done well have rarely encountered a problem.

 

[TarrSteps]

I was wondering much the same having read the answers to the OP, I have never ponied apart from one that was proving very sensitive and it helped him get used to seeing someone above him, as for riding straight out onto a busy road with no idea how a horse will react that may be fine if working with your own horse over a longish period of time but however much prep work has been done there is no guarantee it will transfer to ridden work.
If there is absolutely no time pressure then I suppose it is easier to pick quiet times of day but in a commercial environment it is not so easy, most of the ones I have started need to be home in a reasonable time with the basics in place, usually walk, trot and canter in the school and happily hacking around with a nanny horse, the brakes and steering in place and easy to mount being priorities, refining it all takes far longer but getting a good foundation is important and the main criteria is a confident young horse that can go home and enjoy learning new things.

Everyone has a system, usually this requires some flexibility, I have only lunged a few with a rider on, usually ponies being sat on by someone other than myself just to make sure all goes well and have a degree of control, I prefer to be in control of my own destiny and if the groundwork has been done well have rarely encountered a problem.

Okay, then I might not be insane/incompetent then.

When I was young I was 'crash test dummy' for an incredibly experienced German trainer who didn't really ride anymore. He made all the horses using longeing, long reining and loose work. They were quite amazing to sit on as were virtually 'test ready' the first day and quite often went off to affiliated competitions after a few weeks of riding. I've never seen anyone else prepare horses like that from the ground though.

Interestingly, his system worked best on the horses he bred and similar types. With lighter, hotter more TB types it tended to turn them into runaway trains.

 

[TarrSteps]

Sorry, OP, I seem to have murdered your thread!

 

[Fools Motto]

No - whole thread is an interesting read.

Right, crunch time is 1pm, when I'm meeting other person again to 'get on with it'!! I'm more relaxed than she is, which is good from my point of view, but she is the ''main rider'', so I hope she is in the same mind frame as me today. The horse is lovely, and I really think he can handle all that is put apon him... it's just such early days, and the lunge line thing, I've only ever experienced once bfore with a very sharp horse.
*slap myself, shake other rider - get on with it* lol

 

[Fides]

Eta at the very top - enjoy!!!!

For the first sit, try and have the person on board be a passenger and the person leading issue the commands. It's a lot for a horse to take on board having someone sat on them and you can make it easier by not introducing rider commands for a few sessions.

For the first two sessions (within the first being only 5 minutes max) I lead the rider and give all commands
For the third time the rider introduces voice commands so the horse learns to take them from above
Fourth session we start with voice commands and towards the end introduce squeezes from the leg and rein in time with the voice command
5th session is this reinforced
Usually on the 6th session we are off the lead rein

Some horses pick it up much quicker than this and can be off the Lear rein even by the second session, some take longer.

When I have backed without a helper I use the first session to let the horse walk about without any commands from me on board. I just let them find their balance with a rider on board whilst moving.

All of this has had the foundations laid down by lots of long lining firstly in the school, then out 'hacking'. Before taking the horse out on long lines I always pony from and experienced horse first. It gets them used to having a person higher than them which can be quite scary! Also as stupid as it sounds I will groom them just before backing off a step ladder - also desensitising them to a person being higher.

Hacking I have found is a god send when taking them to shows as they relax much easier. I have a friend who never hacked and only schooled as her horse was to be used for dressage - first competition blew her mind and set her back months

 

[pennyturner]

I'm another that hacks them out right away. I've never broken a warmblood or TB. With a sharper or more forward going horse I initially hack out with a companion on foot until I'm sure it's no longer necessary. The horse should already be used to being walked out in hand. The walker can have a long line on the horse, but I like them to drop back behind his shoulder, so that the horse learns to go forward independently.

The hacking is with a very light contact until the horse is totally relaxed with the basics of walk, trot, walk, halt, in the face of any traffic or scary monster. Then the training starts.

 

[Deseado]

No - whole thread is an interesting read.

Right, crunch time is 1pm, when I'm meeting other person again to 'get on with it'!! I'm more relaxed than she is, which is good from my point of view, but she is the ''main rider'', so I hope she is in the same mind frame as me today. The horse is lovely, and I really think he can handle all that is put apon him... it's just such early days, and the lunge line thing, I've only ever experienced once bfore with a very sharp horse.
*slap myself, shake other rider - get on with it* lol

If your rider is "less relaxed" than you, why is she on a baby horse at all? A nervous or tense rider is absolutely the last person I'd be putting up on an unbroken horse. To answer the lunge question, I'm another who never lunges with a rider when breaking in. As soon as they start and stop I'm up there and riding. I don't longline either, prefer to teach the steering from on top where i can use all the aids, not just the mouth.

 

[Fides]

I don't longline either, prefer to teach the steering from on top where i can use all the aids, not just the mouth.

OP - I disagree with this - If you long line with a saddle on and through the stirrups you can teach them everything. It's also easier to teach verbal cues from the ground than from in board imo

 

[Deseado]

OP - I disagree with this - If you long line with a saddle on and through the stirrups you can teach them everything. It's also easier to teach verbal cues from the ground than from in board imo

How can you teach weight and leg aids on the longlines please?

Verbal cues are of limited use, and not allowed in dressage so we tend not to use any more than a "good boy".

 

[WindyStacks]

One question - why are you REALLY Lungeing? Is it because you're both a bit apprehensive of what "might" happen if he's off the "lead"?

I cannot think of any logical reason why you'd want to spin a baby around in circles.

 

[Fides]

One question - why are you REALLY Lungeing? Is it because you're both a bit apprehensive of what "might" happen if he's off the "lead"?

I cannot think of any logical reason why you'd want to spin a baby around in circles.

That is a fair point. I'd assumed the OP had meant that the horse would be in the lead rein initially. Agreed that a young horse may struggle balancing with first time rider and lunging on a small circle.

 

[Goldenstar]

Most of us don't spin horse round in circles .
I lunge to develop the horses back muscles prior to expecting them to carry weight.
I liked to keep riding on the lunge to the bare minimum .
I did a lot of backing on one yard we never long lined we taught them to lunge , led them out and about from another horse and then got them backed with another horse in the school and out hacking they went .
It worked just fine .
There are many many ways to start horses off the temperament of the human is only non variable and the most important thing .
Some people are really good at starting horses it's special and very unvalued skill.

 

[TarrSteps]

Yes, that was my point earlier - so long as you have a system you are comfortable and confident with, and enough flexibility to accommodate the individual, it should be fine. A great deal of the system can be dictated by what you have available and how you've been taught.

My issue with people saying 'you must hack immediately or the horse will be ruined' is it's simply not true. Having those sort of hard and fast rules are exactly what gets people in trouble because it makes them override their feel and common sense.

A lot is cultural too. I've never long reined much, just a day or two to get the basic steering and give the horse the experience, but I do more here because owners tend to see it as essential. I'm not bothered, it's not hurting anything so why not. (I don't long line or longe straight off the bit though.) Conversely, I start teaching about the leg right away, first ride or two, and don't really use voice aids other than cluck to trot and kiss to canter. To each, their own. So long as you make nice horses at the end, it's a good system. I just think the more tools in your box you have and the wider your experience, the more horses you'll able to do well.

I would agree that relaxation and confidence is paramount though. A grab at the wrong time in the first few rides can set up a problem which can take a lot to sort.

OP, I'd get off the longe if I were you and see how it goes. But be honest, if it's not progressing fairly quickly and easily try to access other people's experience to get back on course quickly

 

[Fides]

OP how did it go?