Breed type and Breeding thoughts.......

[RutlandH2O]

Maybe, back in the day, but I have lost count of the people I have come across wanting to breed their bitch or stud their dog 'just the once' or 'to have a puppy from him/her' or 'it will be nice for him/her' or basically, to make money.
I have seen pedigrees on Champdogs and other sites, I know for a fact the breeders of the dogs would be raging to know that dogs sold as pets are being bred from and are in the pedigree of sometimes defective animals, but yet, they are. Endorsement can only do so much. The dog may still be bred from. KC registration doesn't matter to someone looking for a RARE colour with BIG PAWS (sorry to labour the point ) and a dog that people will ooh and aah over when they walk down the street.

What is it they say, it is linebreeding when you know what you are doing, inbreeding if you don't

I do agree with your last point, rather to lambast people, tempting as it is, it is more productive to highlight and congratulate the people doing it right.
The best thing would be for breeders with problem lines to hold their hands up, admit their mistakes and inform their buyers and stop their lines, but as we know, that does not happen as much as it should

I love that quote re: linebreeding vs inbreeding! I've never heard that before, but it surely hits the right note.

I hate to sound like a Pollyanna, but it's the responsible breeders who will fly the flags of their breeds. There will always be the rotten ones, even the innocent, naive, oh-let's-let-Poopsie-have-one-litter-so-we-can-show-the-children-the-miracle-of-life ones. It will never stop. It will always be the thorn in the side of responsible breeding. I so agree with your first paragraph. I once saw an advert, in my local paper, for Golden pups. I rang the number and asked the chap about the litter. He started to tell me that the pups were by one of my dogs. None of my boys were at public stud, but they were shown. I played along with him and then identified myself. You could "hear" his face go red, then ashen. I gave him a piece of my mind and a warning. This kind of c--p occurs in all walks of life. I used to tell my prospective puppy people that they should approach the purchase of a puppy in the same manner they would purchase a new TV or washing machine. Ask for guarantees, health checks, performance information, care and usage, customer support. That always seemed to strike a note with them.

Yes, more responsible (that word again) people need to stand up and admit to problems in their lines and cease and desist.

 

[RutlandH2O]

When I bought my original Lancashire Heelers back in the 1990s their breeder told me she used to breed wire haired dachshunds. Relucantly she gave up because there were so many problems in the breed she couldnt seem to breed out and she had been breeding for 20yrs. Perhaps some breeds are beyond redemption.

I agree. I know of a few breeds where problems are so serious it will be a major event if they make it into the next decade. One breed, in particular, has been so corrupted by the "top" people in that fancy who are breeding affected dogs and tripling and quadrupling on seriously unhealthy stock, it will be a wonder if any dogs in that breed will be unscathed by the problem.

 

[EAST KENT]

At one point mini bull terriers were afflicted so badly with primery lens luxation that 25% were affected and the gene pool was tiny.Thanks to a lot of money and time the DNA marker was found just two years ago,there are now a lot of "clear" dogs around of great quality.We were luckier than the also affected Lancashire Heelers in that the Kennel Club allowed us to interbreed with small examples of the larger cousin,the bull terrier..subject to stringent health tests for both animals considered and on licence from the KC. That of course helped to widen the breed gene pool too. So ,there is an example of the AHT and the KC working together to help us dedicated breeders eradicate a dreadful condition that had been in the breed since before the war. There are a lot of breeders out there using science to progress their life`s work in their chosen breed,complete integrity is paramount of course,and good breeders I.D. their dogs anyway..so no cheating on tests!
Personally I believe most problems stem from breed for profit and pet bred litters,and the real dyed in the wool breed devotees find it very difficult to ward them off,people these days frankly lie their back teeth off ! My contracts/endorsements/and tattooing all my puppies must help,but nothing is completely foolproof.

 

[MurphysMinder]

Rutland I have had that happen when someone contacted me who had a puppy by our dog and wanted to come and see the dog. Sadly the dog had been dead for nearly 2 years! The pedigree they had was a complete fairy tale, they had our dogs name but not his parents etc.
I have actually rarely had people wanting to breed from pups I have sold, those who have I have been aware of and we have planned any litter together with myself advising on studs. It may be different nowadays though as its 11 years since I bred a litter. Although I will always apply KC endorsements I am not sure how much they help as people dont bother kc registering, I have even seen a Labrador advertised at stud locally and the advert specifically says he is kc reg but his stock will not be eligible for registration.

 

[RutlandH2O]

At one point mini bull terriers were afflicted so badly with primery lens luxation that 25% were affected and the gene pool was tiny.Thanks to a lot of money and time the DNA marker was found just two years ago,there are now a lot of "clear" dogs around of great quality.We were luckier than the also affected Lancashire Heelers in that the Kennel Club allowed us to interbreed with small examples of the larger cousin,the bull terrier..subject to stringent health tests for both animals considered and on licence from the KC. That of course helped to widen the breed gene pool too. So ,there is an example of the AHT and the KC working together to help us dedicated breeders eradicate a dreadful condition that had been in the breed since before the war. There are a lot of breeders out there using science to progress their life`s work in their chosen breed,complete integrity is paramount of course,and good breeders I.D. their dogs anyway..so no cheating on tests!
Personally I believe most problems stem from breed for profit and pet bred litters,and the real dyed in the wool breed devotees find it very difficult to ward them off,people these days frankly lie their back teeth off ! My contracts/endorsements/and tattooing all my puppies must help,but nothing is completely foolproof.

Yes, I forgot to mention DNA markers. That technology, expensive as it is, could well be the remedy for so many of the ills that befall our dogs. I've been out of the loop for more years than I'd like to admit, and do correct me if I am wrong, but finding a marker for a condition as polygenetic as HD, will probably be an extraordinary undertaking.

MurphysMinder: A friend had the exact same thing happen to her when her stud dog had been gone for almost 5 years! People come out of the woodwork, maybe go to a show, ask questions about the proceedings, and see which dogs take the top honours in their classes, etc. Even if they do manage to "make" puppies, are they (the "breeders" or their pups) ever heard from again? In most cases, no. I had been our breed club president for 14 years and was, for 16 years, the correspondent from our club to the national club newsletter. Along with hosting specialty shows, lectures, fun days, handling classes, eye and blood clinics, one of our most vital functions was giving assistance to people who had made "unwise" choices in the purchase of pups from nefarious "breeders," none of whom were affiliated with our club. It was quite amazing how our "jungle drums" were able to successfully shut down a couple of breeding operations through the simple act of word of mouth from their disgruntled customers with the support of our club and its code of ethics.

 

[CorvusCorax]

The SV (GSD ruling body in Germany) has the ZW system where at birth, a dog is given a 'number' which is the average of the parents two numbers combined then divided for the dog itself when it is scored and the progeny when they are x-rayed, it gives a rough guide of the scores the dog might throw and the results are on an open web database for all to see.

In Germany you have to chip, DNA register to the breed database (for future reference in identifying health problems), health test, working qualify to get into the top classes and to get the best set of papers for the dog (and progeny), which records all the dog's health tests and achievements and stays with the dog for life. If a country the size and population of Germany can do this for just one breed, and administer breeding and showing in this way, why can't we?

Agree Rutland, plenty of people have come to us having been 'sold a pup', being told it would make a great working dog or a great show dog and would be healthy as anything because the parents had never been lame in their lives (and the dog is maybe nervous, lame, itchy, and a non-standard colour) and while of course those dogs are loved and cherished, these people can be equipped to make better choices next time, look for health tests, see the parents, not fall for the soft soap.

 

[RutlandH2O]

The SV (GSD ruling body in Germany) has the ZW system where at birth, a dog is given a 'number' which is the average of the parents two numbers combined then divided for the dog itself when it is scored and the progeny when they are x-rayed, it gives a rough guide of the scores the dog might throw and the results are on an open web database for all to see.

In Germany you have to chip, DNA register to the breed database (for future reference in identifying health problems), health test, working qualify to get into the top classes and to get the best set of papers for the dog (and progeny), which records all the dog's health tests and achievements and stays with the dog for life. If a country the size and population of Germany can do this for just one breed, and administer breeding and showing in this way, why can't we?

Agree Rutland, plenty of people have come to us having been 'sold a pup', being told it would make a great working dog or a great show dog and would be healthy as anything because the parents had never been lame in their lives (and the dog is maybe nervous, lame, itchy, and a non-standard colour) and while of course those dogs are loved and cherished, these people can be equipped to make better choices next time, look for health tests, see the parents, not fall for the soft soap.

It's obvious they really mean business in Germany. And, all credit to them. Have these stringent regulations made a difference in the incidence of HD overall? And type: has this been sacrificed in the quest for sound hips? I ask this because of an article I read in Dog World, I think, back in the late '70s. Apparently, there were strict new rules put in place in Sweden, regarding hip dysplasia. An English breeder of Labradors had gone to Sweden to judge that breed (she was/is quite well-known). She wrote the article about her experiences that day because she was so disappointed in the quality of the dogs presented to her. If I remember correctly, she said she felt she wanted to sit down in the ring and have all the dogs' X-rays brought to her for her to judge, seeing as the breed had completely lost type.

If the German method has been successful in lowering the incidence of HD (and other genetic diseases) while preserving type and temperament, why haven't breed societies followed their lead?

 

[CorvusCorax]

The Scandinavian countries are stricter again with spine x-rays.
Who knows, maybe it is too much effort and would represent a lot of lost revenue to registration bodies and breeders and exhibitors keen to cut corners.

Please do not get me wrong, working type temperament could really be improved in a lot of the showline dogs, there are still health issues and the system is still not free of problems, problem dogs still do get shuffled out of the way, but it is a better system than others, IMO.

 

[RutlandH2O]

The Scandinavian countries are stricter again with spine x-rays.
Who knows, maybe it is too much effort and would represent a lot of lost revenue to registration bodies and breeders and exhibitors keen to cut corners.

Please do not get me wrong, working type temperament could really be improved in a lot of the showline dogs, there are still health issues and the system is still not free of problems, problem dogs still do get shuffled out of the way, but it is a better system than others, IMO.

I think you've made a very cogent point: far too much effort for lost revenue.

 

[Alec Swan]

.......
In Germany you have to chip, DNA register to the breed database (for future reference in identifying health problems), health test, working qualify to get into the top classes and to get the best set of papers for the dog (and progeny), which records all the dog's health tests and achievements and stays with the dog for life. If a country the size and population of Germany can do this for just one breed, and administer breeding and showing in this way, why can't we?

.......

There's no real reason why we can't, except for the fact that here, there is no will.

Those on the Continent, who are serious, tend to value, and test for the separate aspects of work and conformation. Here, all to many have no interest, apart from a claimed lip service to a dogs working ability and temperament, and all so often, they don't have the experience or knowledge to be able to offer any sort of valued assessment. Even the better UK breeders want to produce a GSD puppy (for instance), which will be a loveable and soft family pet. The Continentals, I suspect, breed for a dog which whilst of sound temperament, from a work aspect, may not be suitable as a family pet which can be allowed it's freedom.

The other point to consider, would be that for dogs to be health tested AND monitored, would be a very costly business, and few of the buying public would want to have the cost of a pup doubled. In 1983 (if memory serves me correctly) a top class German dog was offered for sale for £46k. The buyer would have recovered that cost from stud fees. That market simply doesn't exist, here in the UK.

There would be the added problem, for many, that a committed PD dog, wouldn't be too keen on a handling session from a judge, I wouldn't have thought, so Crufts would be out!

A way forward, perhaps; there are certainly work based groups, within the UK who whilst aligning themselves to the KC, for the sake of registration record, could easily set there own conditions and protocol, I would have thought, and to include as many or as few, of the Continental guidelines, as were felt appropriate.

The problem with the above paragraph, is that here in the UK the vast majority of GSDs, for example, are kept as pets, and the minority for sport. When I spent time in Germany, the position was reversed. It was very rare to see a GSD being taken for a walk, as a family pet. When dogs were being walked on the highway, or on streets in towns, it was obvious that they were in training.

We and the Continentals, tend to breed two separate dogs, within the same breed, but for two separate purposes.

My thoughts are now going around in circles!!

Alec.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I agree and disagree Alec. There are already shows held in the UK outside the remit of the KC, under WUSV rules (which require health tests and at least SchI to enter the working class) so yes, many other breeds could do so if they wanted to.
Most of these dogs also compete in the KC ring (most people want it both ways ) - the GSD BoB at Crufts this year (and group winner under an all-rounder judge) was also the British Sieger under WUSV rules and breed specialist judges.

As regards price, my older dog and his sister are registered in and have their papers from Germany, chipped, tattoed, DNA'd, both parents SchI and breed surveyed and they were £300. They are about as soft as you can get, too soft for my liking and are perfectly good pets.
The one before them was born in quarantine by an imported father, she was £200 and probably the 'nicest' natured dog we ever had.

There are working dogs in the UK, who hold breed survey class one for conformation and compete in the working classes who have managed not to take the head off the judge when he checked for two fully-descended testicles. Even the females
My own young dog is from working lines and has a delightful character (unless you are dressed as a crim ) he is lying asleep at my feet and is also very pretty/showy to look at IMO. Apart from those feet
Some would say that in the aim of breeding a 'soft' German Shepherd, a lot of the good traits of the dog are being bred out of it entirely - there is a happy medium if you do your research and know where to look (as with most things dog-related )

£46k in 83? Do you know which dog? Think only Dingo could have commanded that money in those days.

Incidentally the best GSD we have owned was from a very old German herding line which still exists today. Very social but sharp when she needed to be and of excellent conformation. Wish I could have cloned her.