Breeders, a quick straw poll.

A

Alec Swan

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I don't know how to set up a proper poll, so to keep it simple how many on here have;

a/ Ever bred a litter of puppies.

b/ Bred a litter in the last 5 years.

c/ Bred one or more litters in the last 12 months, or so.

Whilst I am it, with the questions, can someone tell me what Health Screening is? And then describe the process to me.

Alec.
 
A for me

Health screening would be screening the parents for potential genetic problems that they could pass on the the pups via x-ray, ultrasound, eye checks etc . Its not a guarentee of clear pups but its a massive step towards it.
 
Alec - I have a black lab that has a pedigree you would die for - all the famous field trial kennel names in red, littered all over his papers. He is a superstar gun dog and has done me proud :D Everyone loves Toby - he is so good at his job :)

Unfortunately he has the most horrific OCD in his elbows - diagnosed at 6 months, not expected to live beyond the age of 5 :( He is now 8 yrs old and this is the first year I have decided not to take him shooting - he has officially retired due to his joints :(

In his younger days, due to his looks and amazing pedigree I was asked several times to use him as a stud but although the pound signs rung up in my eyes (like a cartoon) I couldn't do it - I couldn't possibly put anyone else through the stress and upset that we went through with Toby - hence I had him cut ( I can hear you wince from here!) Consequently and seeing the outcome of this, I would never, ever have another entire dog cut for no good reason.

I am acutely aware now how important hip and elbow scoring is when chosing a puppy but that said, I wouldn't have another lab anyway - its spaniels all the way for me ;)
 
A for me, last litter was bred 11 years ago. However litter planned for next spring, you don't have a category for that. ;)
Health screening for my breed would be hip and elbow scoring (and only breeding from low scores), and haemophilia testing for the sire.
Our lancashire heeler had both parent tested for PLL and he himself was DNA tested at 8 weeks old.
Obviously different breeds require different tests, if you look here it shows the health tests required/recommended for each breed.

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/1100/abshealthreqs.pdf


Slightly off topic but if anyone wants to check the results of a dogs health test it should be listed here
http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/test/Default.aspx

You just type in the full kc registered name of the dog and it should come up .
 
B) dont consider myself a breeder but have had 2 litters in last 5 years, the last one being nearly 3 years ago.
Like MM also have a litter planned in not to distant future.
Health testing, with litters I have bred just eyes and that is not regarded as neccessity in the breed. With the litter planned just hips although also plan to dna test, the breed also has a nasty genetic issue for which there is of yet no test but my bitch and the dog selected are both clear of known lines to carry it and epilepsy.
 
Surely there are many undesirable conditions which would render a dog unfit to breed off ..... ecxema (spelling?) or retained testicle, bad temperament as examples?.
 
Spook said:
Surely there are many undesirable conditions which would render a dog unfit to breed off ..... ecxema (spelling?) or retained testicle, bad temperament as examples?.
Click to expand...

There are many "undesirable conditions" but lack of problems still doesn't make an animal breeding quality. Most dogs should not be bred from.

Unfortunately when times are hard it is generally the ethical breeders that cut back and the puppy farmers & BYBs continue to turn out poor puppies.
 
Spook said:
Interesting...... so what is the "Bench Mark" for breeding dogs or horses for that matter?
Click to expand...

That would depend entirely on how ethical a breeder chooses to be! There ARE various health checks listed by the Kennel Club for each breed,but they are entirely voluntary.The official line is that if the KC enforced these health checks on everyone before a litter could be registered then it would merely make breeders go underground.It was tried in the US ,so I was told,and the result was just another registration body set up and loss of control for the AKC.

If only the buying public could be educated then the bad breeders would be unable to sell their puppies,it is hard to educate some people though!
 
I have posted a link above to the health tests required before a breeder can become a KC Assured Breeder, unfortunately although the tests have to be done there is no minimum standard that has to be achieved. In my breed they dogs have to be hip scored but a dog could have a hip score of 50 (the breed average is 19) and still be bred from by a KC Assured Breeder. The KC is supposed to be monitoring breeders now and presumably if they find this happening they have the ability to remove said breeder from the AB list, but I was told by a KC rep that they don't want to be too strict as they would push breeders underground as East Kent says.
The buying public do need to be educated, it is getting better but sadly there are still many who don't bother asking the all important questions re health tests, or if they do ask are fobbed off by statements such as "oh yes they have a good hip score" without asking to see the relevant paperwork.
 
M_M,

thanks for the KC listings, they made interesting and informative reading. I was surprised to see that so many breeds have so many inheritable faults. I was also surprised to see that so few breed societies had a bar on bitches being bred with under the age of two years.

My interests have always and only been in working dogs. The problem, I suspect, certainly in the '70s, was that whilst many of the top class work dogs, which were used for stud purposes, may not have had ideal hips, they won trials, and there in may lay the problem, in part. Thankfully, today there are plenty of Field Trial Champions, on offer for stud duties, with clear, or near so, hips. There shouldn't really be any excuses, should there?

Over the years, I've rather taken my eye off the ball, both with trialling, and breeding, but would you say that the previously unacceptable occurrences of HD specifically, but other heritable complaints, are now improving because of parental screening, or would you think that they are conditions which we will live with, for all time? Eradication seems highly unlikely, to me, but an improvement in breed standards, and monitoring has to be for the better.

Alec.
 
They are interesting aren't they and I found some of the breed test requirements quite surprising. People are always going on about GSDs as being a breed with problems but I was shocked at how many breeds have more tests required. Would be interesting to know how many English springer owners were aware of the tests breeding stock should have (not getting at springers in particularly but they are a popular breed and I certainly wasn't aware of the requirements and I consider myself quite knowledgable about dogs).
I can't speak for other breeds but there is an improvement in GSDs in terms of hips, and certainly the haemophilia problem seems to have been reduced drastically but I only know about the "well bred" dogs. It sounds like snobbery but think its likely that few of the pet litters have parents who have undergone these tests.
The restrictions on breeding ages etc are usually set by breed clubs, so if they aren't prepared to set them maybe it says something about those in power.:( Yet again GSD breeders have been criticised so often, including in here, yet we have a fairly proactive Breed Council, and the GSD folk did bring in hip scoring after all.
 
I think breed clubs have a huge bearing on whether the individual breed declines in health as a whole or improves. Many unfortunately I cannot see improving.
 
There are quite a few Dobermann breeders who publish on line all their dogs and the relevant health checks, one of the aims is to breed out VWD and not breed from any dog affected. If I was to go down the puppy route rather than rescue I would use one of these breeders, it may cost more in the beginning but hopefully less in the long run , not to mention heartache.
 
A lot of the Border Collie breeders publish all their dogs eye test, Hip Score and DNA results on their sites as well and in any stud dog adverts. They will only allow their dogs to be mated to health checked bitches they approve of. Poppy came from one of these breeders.

With Border Collies we also have the added benefit of the Anadune Border Collie Database which all the decent breeders use. It lists all the known health checks for many of the collies on it - almost all those that are used for breeding and compete and it goes back many generations. It also lists all the competition results and many of the litters or other lifetime achievements that they have had.

The best bit is their is a mating test where you can pick any bitch on the site and any dog on the site and it will generate litter results. This includes an inbreeding calculation and the % chance of inheriting CEA, TNS or CL. It obviously can't guess at hip scores for puppies but it will tell you the parents and you can click into previous generations as well. It also show % likely hood of different coat types and colours. Very clever and a really useful tool. The Kennel Club is only just starting to get some of these things on their site.
 
The problem I have is honesty in breeders.
When your dog is ofa tested for example and has less than favorable.results and most breeders will not publish on tje ofa website the poor results so we the buyer or future breeders do not get an accurate view of a lines hip scores. Same with the other tests.
 
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