Breeding a NH racehorse?

S

stolensilver

Well-Known Member
Joined
16 September 2008
Messages
688
Visit site
Please tell me if I'm being silly! I've always wanted to breed a steeplechaser but never got any further than dreaming about it. However I did talk to my OH about this crazy dream today and he didn't roll his eyes/ laugh/ call me crazy so...

The mare I have is halfbred. Half TB, half Irish Draught. (don't laugh!) She jumps like a stag, we went over fences bigger than those in the grand national many times when we were out blood hounding. She has bottomless stamina, she would gallop 20 miles and jump 100 fences and still be up for more. When racing against a TB she would be beaten easily over 1/2 mile but over longer distances such as 1 1/2 miles of flat out galloping I never found a horse who could stay with her. But then she never ran upsides a real racehorse I guess so I'm not entirely sure how fast she is. She always had a sprinting finish left in the tank no matter how far we had galloped and she hated having other horses in front of her, she'd pin her ears and dig deep and make sure she got past the other horse.

She is 16.2hh, middleweight, no glaring conformation faults.

Can anyone suggest any potential NH stallions that might compliment her? I like the idea of Millenary, can't tell you why. :lol: I love Presenting but can't afford him! I like Mine but he is unproven as a sire.

I don't know a lot about racing stallions but would want to choose one known for soundness and good temperament. My mare is pretty much a complete outcrossing to most TB pedigrees these days. She has Big Game and Game Rights, both sires of Gold Cup winners. Arctic Star, sire of Arctic Slave, Arctic Chevallier and Arctic Storm all of whom sired good NH horses and are in the pedigrees of Oats, Flakey Dove, Dawn Run and several others. I'll post a link to her pedigree in my next post.
 
Here is her pedigree. I know she is the ideal mare to breed eventers and I qhave a stallion lined up to do that. But it would be so exciting to try to breed a steeplechaser. However if the answer is "in order to get there I wouldn't start here" then I'll stick with plan A and try for an eventer. She's already had a foal by Silvermoon the Trakehner. He is super. She went straight back in foal 1st try for next year so seems to be an easy breeder despite being 17.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/stolen+silver
 
You couldn't go far wrong with Midnight Legend- worked with some real old trooper Midnight Legend horses...they just go on, and on, and on,....never sick or sorry we had a few that had raced over fences for 6 years or so getting consistent good placings and wins. And the funny thing is that they all seem to be the same, in temperment/toughness. From that small handfull of ML horses I would say that he stamped his stock very well. Also, anyone could ride them.

Another one I like Is Beneficial if you want to get some sharper/quicker blood in there but again he is one of the top NH sires and with High Top, My Babu and Nijinksy bloodlines - they are all brilliant snappy, brave jumpers with excellent balanced canters- so if your foal didnt make it as a racehorse it would have a career as an eventer. They are neurotic and silly to handle on the ground but once under saddle they give you absolutely everything, they can overboil a touch but do improve with age- but very genuine horses.

ETS- I dont think you are being silly at all! Half the TB mares that people breed from would not be able to do a patch on what your mare has done, or last as long. It would be an interesting experiment! Not sure if you would be able to race this under rules but definately Pt to Pt.
 
Last edited:
To know whether its worth trying you need to get her damline pedigree from somewhere. May be a bit tricky, but Weatherby's should help. You need to find out if she is related to anything of any use to know whether she could produce anything(the stallion lines mean nothing in this respect).
At best you would hope for a point to pointer, but (assuming its a mare!) you could hope to improve on that in the next generation.
I would inject quality blood with a Saddlers Wells stallion.
 
From a very quick look I can't find any racing progeny in the first three dams. The dam of your mare FAIR STELLA has no progeny reg with Wetherbys. Her dam FAIR AVIS has 7 listed. None have raced. The only daughter of hers to breed on was BRIGHT AND FAIR who only had one named horse from 8 foals. I can find no record of her stock racing.

I am not a NH person but I will get my OH to look as he is more clued up on that front. In fact he used to look after Midnight Legend when he first went to stud. ML really stamps his foals and gets a super looking type.
 
Thankyou so much for your replies. :) Midnight Legend looks a lovely horse with the sort of racing and soundness record I was hoping for. If I decide to take this further I will go and have a look at him in the flesh.

Jamana I'm not at all familiar with racing terms. What does it mean when a mare has foals that aren't named? And foals that are listed but didn't race? Does it mean they went lame or were very slow or something else? Were they bred to be flat horses or jumpers? Hope you don't mind all the questions. :)

I know my mare's dam was on the NTR register despite being full TB as there was some sort of mix up with the paperwork of one of her female ancestors. She competed in eventing to Novice level before retiring to have babies.

Does my mare's soundness record count for anything? And her own galloping ability? She was one of those horses that skipped over the top of the ground no matter how deep the going was. Foot deep mud didn't slow her down or tire her out at all and she was equally happy on good going. But that was only out bloodhounding so very different from racing. You do tend to go pretty quick though and don't stop until the halfway point which was usually after 10 miles but I really don't know if this is any sort of indicator for producing a horse to race over fences or not.
 
Don't mind any questions (as long as I know the answer.........) I love talking racing breeding!

Having foals that aren't named with Wetherbys just means that they won't have been able to race. They may have a name and be someones top class eventer/hunter etc but offically naming a horse through Wetherbys costs about £160 so unless you are definitely going to race most people don't bother! So they may be around but may have another passport as well.

Foals listed but unraced are just progeny that show on Wetherbys records that were registered out of that mare. As I said, any that were unamed won't have run and I can find any horse that has run in UK and Ire since 1989 and non of the named ones are listed.

None of the Dams have any record of progeny going through the main sales either. As for being bred for flat or jumps I would guess jumping but I will have to get my OH to look at the sires as they are a bit before my time and he is much older!!!

Your mares dam shows on Wetherbys main database without the usual NTR suffix so I'm not sure what happened there?

Your mares soundness record is certainly a good starting point. As for speed etc that is really hard to quantify out of a racing context. We had a hunter that we thought was really fast until we worked her against some P2P-ers! There was a lady recently who thought her half bred was fast enough to beat a racehorse and sponsored a match race against a,fairly moderate, sprinter. I think she was beaten by about 50-60 lengths. Going fairly fast out hunting is not quite the same as going at racing pace.

I don't want to put a dampner on your hopes but it is a uphill battle to breed any winner. Starting with a half-bred mare with no obvious racing connections in the first three dams will make it a bit harder, but soundness and conformation are the building blocks for performance horse so that is a good start.

Before getting too excited about which stallions to use, please have in your mind that they may not cover a part bred mare to produce a racehorse. This may be less of a case with NH stallions as many cover show mares but if you are needing a full covering cert to be eligible for racing it may be a little more tricky. The studs have their stallions reputation to protect as well as his win/run %. In an industry based on gossip and rumour it may not do a sire any favours to be seen to be 'needing' to cover non-TBs. However as I say Jumps sires may be less affected.
 
stolensilver said:
Jamana I'm not at all familiar with racing terms. What does it mean when a mare has foals that aren't named? - Names are normally left to whoever buys to race, it gives them the option to choose. Unnamed means whoever has bought the offspring has not paid the registration fee. A lot of these horses are registered (as its cheaper) with SHBUK & you will see Unnamed in the info.

And foals that are listed but didn't race? Does it mean they went lame or were very slow or something else? - Anyone of those


I know my mare's dam was on the NTR register despite being full TB as there was some sort of mix up with the paperwork of one of her female ancestors. She competed in eventing to Novice level before retiring to have babies.

- There has to be (I think 8 or 10) so many generations going back to a TB before is enters the GSB studbook

QUOTE]
Click to expand...
 
I know little detail on racing, apart from knowing the Holmes who own ML, but can tell you that Bright and Fair was one of the very very top show hunter mares in her day, which is probably why none of her foals was actually bred to race, they were more bred as show horses. I think one was a top flight show hack, whose name escapes me atm, and I think an owner along the way was called Ms Hindle.

In fact B and F featured in the Top Spec literature when they first launched the original balancer. Mine of totally useless information, that's me.
 
Well without looking up old HIS-as-was Show catalogues I can't swear that she is the same B and F, but I am sure as can be that the B and F I knew of through showing was out of a mare called Fair Avis (simply as knew someone called Avis!)

The name of one of hers has come to me in last few minutes, Burning Bright, by Java Tiger, I was sure she'd had a JT and the poem popped into my head giving me the answer.

Wonder what is on the NED for B and F?
 
Yes this B&F is out of Fair Avis. Her foals were by

1985 F Bigivor
1986 F Java Tiger
1987 G Bigivor (Ravendale Rascal)
1989 C Meldrum
1990 C Loch Pearl
1991 F Loch Pearl
1992 C Exorbitant
1993 F Distinct Native
 
Jamana said:
Thats interesting.

The only Weatherbys named foal for Bright and Fair is RAVENDALE RASCAL
Click to expand...

That is because all the others were unnamed with Weatherbys, but appear to have been reg with SHB GB. Unless they went into racing their owner/s probably did not feel the need to pay the Weatherby fee for naming.

1985 unnamed filly by Bigivor 1986 unnamed filly by Java Tiger 1989 unnamed colt by Meldrum 1990 unnamed colt by Loch Pearl 1991 unnamed filly by Loch Pearl 1992 unnamed colt by Exorbitant 1993 unnamed filly by Distinct Native
 
Thanks for that information Chrissie. I had no idea Lottie was related to Bright and Fair. I know nothing about showing but I've heard of her. :) If you'd seen Lottie as a baby you'd never have believed it either. LOL! Do you know any more about Bright and Fair or her dam Fair Avis? I'd love to hear more if possible.

I've just had a look on the pedigree sites and Lottie's dam is a full sister to Bright and Fair. I did think she was a good looking mare. Her sire, Top Star, sired Sanyo Olympic Video an international showjumper and several very useful eventers. Lottie's sire O'Sullivan is full brother to Grey Macha, a well known RID who stood in Ireland and sired many showjumpers, eventers and show horses.

As I said earlier her pedigree really does sound as if she should sire eventers doesn't it? If I did go down that route I'd used Weston Justice who I've met and think he's wonderful with just the right sort of outlook on life to compliment Lottie's. But it would be so exciting to try to breed a racehorse. If they take part in long distance jump races (3-4 miles) is speed as important a factor as it is in the flat races?
 
Last edited:
Jamana said:
As for speed etc that is really hard to quantify out of a racing context. We had a hunter that we thought was really fast until we worked her against some P2P-ers! There was a lady recently who thought her half bred was fast enough to beat a racehorse and sponsored a match race against a,fairly moderate, sprinter. I think she was beaten by about 50-60 lengths. Going fairly fast out hunting is not quite the same as going at racing pace.
.
Click to expand...

Actually, personally I think that say an 86 rated chaser that was getting placed ( lower grade of chaser) would have much the same speed and stamina as a a good one, two and three star eventer. Having galloped all such horses over fences ( this was over steeplechase fences, on proper point to point courses) I would say there is absolutely not much difference in the speed and stamina. In fact I would say that my old ID x TB X Trak was faster and had more stamina than an 86 winning chaser. I may be way out on this, but it would be an interesting experiment and I dont think much difference would be found.
 
That's an interesting comparison Seabiscuit. It would be fascinating to see a race between eventers and chasers. The speed needed for the *** and **** tracks cross country is quick and difficult to obtain because there is so much accuracy needed on the combination fences so the horses are forever being slowed down and speeded up out of their rhythm.

I know my mare was always the fastest horse on the field when we were out with the bloodhounds. We were favourites to win the hunt race but sadly never took part as I had a bad fall and broke a few bones.

I suppose if I did go for this the worst that could happen is I end up breeding a very expensive eventer. :lol:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top