Breeding an Eventer

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alleycat

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I've been struck, on reading peoples' breeding choices, and also the interesting stuff in the Competition Rider's section, where people actually get on & do things with the horses we breed, how wide a range of breeds and types are consisered appropriate for breeding eventers.

If you want to breed a dressage horse, a showjumper, an endurance horse or a racehorse, your path is pretty well mapped out for you; you're evaluating individuals within one or two appropriate breeds ot types, and there seems to be quite a lot of agreement on the qualities you need. Breeding an eventer, however: thats a different matter.

I remember reading somewhere that a good TB was an ideal eventer. However, although TB blood features strongly, its generally being mixed with something in the breeding I've seen. That "something" has been: native pony (particularly Connemara and Welsh D), Arab, Irish Draught, Cleveland Bay, Clydesdale, Warmblood- particularly Trakehener (can never spell that) and Selle Francais but also Hannoverian and Dutch, Quarterhorse (sure I saw that somewhere), Lusitano- and I don't suppose that list is exhaustive.

Quite a few of the part TB sires I've seen are 15/16ths TB; which would suggest that TB is almost ideal after all; but that that little bit of something else is important enough to warrant keeping. On the other hand, I can't help feeling we've lost our way a bit; that what we've got ISN'T ideal but we're not sure what is.

So, what do you look for in an eventer? Apart from the obvious things, I mean, such as it must be sound, brave and able to jump? What sort of action, jump, shoulder, head carriage, hindquarter, size, etc. What are people hoping to add when they breed to a pony? to a warmblood? a draught? an arab? What does the TB lack that requires crossbreeding to correct it or enhance it? What do these other breeds lack that they, too, are cross bred?

As I've mentioned before I rather like the look of Pembridge Minstrel, if I can track him down: (Cleveland Bay/TB cross); he looks big, scopey and correct and has shown he can perform and I think he would suit my mare (TB). However, I'm going almost on instinct here; a gut feeling that this is a good horse. In terms of analysing my choice I have very little to go on because in fact I don't know what I should be aiming for, to take the finished article out of the category of "good" into the realm of "excellent".

The odd thing is, I don't think I'm alone in this. Even successful studs deeply involved in breeding eventers seem to keep refering back in their breeding choices to "good" horses that, in my judgement, were catapulted to "excellent" status almost by chance, because they had excellent riders when eventing was developing as a sport. I have a sneaking feeling this may be true of the Ben Faerie family for example; yes, they are good, but are they THAT good? On the other hand, the Just A Monarch horses seem to have been truly great, achieving success in different areas under different riders. But why? What made them special?

So next year, if I set out to breed an eventer, what exactly should I be aiming for, and what sires, in such a wide choice, might provide it?
 
What a great question. In eventing there are 3 disciplines the horse can be described as a jack of all trades a master of none. Pony blood has been used because it can give that nippiness/cleverness. Also some of the natives show a real aptitude for jumping, but they are not big enough on their own. They are also tough, & can add to the stamina & improve on some TB’s poor feet. Dressage has improved amongst all ranks & it is now just as important as the XC & SJ’g in determining the winner. Perhaps this is where the WB’s have entered, though Trakehners are slightly different being fairly pure having been a closed book for a number of years. The only accepted
blood is TB, Arab & AA, so they are probably as near TB. I suppose the idea is to have a horse level headed enough for dressage, scope enough for the jumping along with enough speed & stamina for XC. At the lower ranks I have seen allsorts going round, though I suspect a Clydesdale x TB would be too heavy for the higher levels. I think it is accepted that ¾ TB’s are the best & this would be because they have been the most successful, whether this is because there are more of them, I don’t know. It would be interesting to know what the breeding is of the top horses. A bit of ID blood has also been popular but again the ID has shown it can perform over different terrain (from hunting) & shows a bold jump. What no one can breed is braveness & a willingness to do the job. It is probably safer to use a stallion proven to produce eventers.
My daughter wants to event, but I think the first one may do ok at lower levels, not sure he will have the braveness needed. He is ex of a Welsh D x QH, (she had a good scoopy jump & very easy temperament) by a Trakehner (he showed a good jump technique at his grading but was bred for dressage). I chose this sire as he complemented the mare, had a wonderful temperament otherwise I would have used a TB. He shows a real turn of speed, can turn on a sixpence & I don’t expect any problems with his stamina when fit & under saddle. He has inherited the QH backend which hopefully will provide him with the power, who knows. This years colt is ex of an unknown mare who has shown some scope though has let herself down by being a bit spooky. She does though enjoy XC & has shown some very nice flat work. The sire is SJ’g breed being by Coolcorron Cool Diamond owned & jumped by Robert Splaine. I think he may go further, just a gut instinct with the way he is about things. Again not sure he will make the top, but we will have fun with both of the anyway
I cant wait to read the other replies as this is a very interesting thread.
 
I'm hoping my foal will make an eventer (or maybe nippy fast SJ-er) - she's out of a proper AngloArab (half TB half Arab) by a SJ-er. She's not built big enough to be a power SJ-er but with her mother's speed and his jumping ability, I reckon she should make a nice eventer. She's bold and confident and jumps things without thinking about it (like the gate into the next field
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I think the very professional era that eventing is now in, needs a horse that is more than just a good all rounder (at the higher levels). The dressage score is the key to a medal or not, so I think some more suspension and elasticity of paces is needed. Then the show jumping phase seems ever more crucial so you need a horse with a naturaly good technique and scope. Of course you cant afford to loose atheltic ability and the blood needed for the cross country phase.
So to me the best eventers now are 'warmbloods' with a high dose of blood in them, eg Selle Francais will high TB and AA blood, Trakehners. My advanced mare is Holstein x TB. By breeding her to stallions with a high dose of blood, I hope to not loose the Holstein power and technique, but enhance the quality and not add too much more size. That 1/4 Holstein 3/4 blood, I hope will be the right mixture.
 
My ideal horse would be 3/4 tb, 1/8 warmblood and 1/8 pony
I would settle for 1/2 tb, 1/4 wb, 1/4 pony

Ok so in reality what I have is one 1/2 tb 1/2 pony and one 1/2 wb, 1/4 tb, 1/4 pony.

I just like that dash of pony in there for strength, agility and sure-footedness. I ideally wouldnt want more than 1/2 wb unless it was a light modern SF/trakhener type.

In picking an event sire I want something that has proven itself over decent size tracks. So much of an eventer lies in its heart and courage. There are very few stallions currently available that have competed themselves at 3/4* but a few are consistantly producing those level horses.

So, depending on the mare you've got.....
Weston Justice (mostly tb), McGuigan (tbxwb), Mill Law (tb)and Pembridge Minstrel (cbxtb)as proven 3/4* horses.
Theres a few nice younger ones doing well at intermediate, more warmblood types- Song Song Blue, Jazztime, Opposition Heracles, Chilli Morning
And young novice horses- All That Jazz, Take It To The Limit

Theres prob quite a few I've left out but those are the ones I'd consider if I wanted a proven horse. Otherwise you can choose something like Jumbo or one of his sons based on stock. For eventing I'd be wary of picking something thats totally unproven either itself or through its stock
 
I am not convinced that the era of the full TB (or very close) is over.

The warmbloods bring movement and scope but have yet to really dominate at top level.

In order to event at 4* a horse needs to cover the ground well and be able to sustain their pace for 11 minutes. The TB is pretty hard to beat for that.

It would be interesting to look at the breeding of the horses placed in the top 10 at 4* events over the last couple of years.

Having said that, I have just bred a 3/4 TB (1/4 ID) foal with the intention of eventing. The Irish crosses are very good sensible horses for happy amateurs like me!
 
I agree SillyMare. TB's are still tops.

Having said that, what I would call the ultimate event horse is an SF - but then thats just anglo arab with a dash of french trotter.
 
I'm an out and out TB fan, if you look at the breeding in top competitions they still far outway the foreign breds. It is changing however I agree with above, to be able to sustain high/intense exersion for 11minutes you need the blood, stamina and i think boldness to continue even when things are stacked against you, which I think the TB offers in abundance

For me, I like the 7/8TB with the other 1/8 to be a native/irish type. The larger amount of TB gives you the quality elements and then the other gives you the added element of soundness, saneness!, and the better movement for the flat work

My next foal will be a 7/8TB with a 1/8 irish, crossed with a 7/8TB and 1/8 Arab! so all very interesting!

I do agree with Boss tho on event stallions, I do think they need to have performed and have something on the ground to get an idea of what they throw, especially if you not a pro breeder and your chances are limited. Otherwise from a pro breeding point of view, i wouldnt mind taking a chance on a horse with the right conformation, breeding and personality - you never know, he might be the next best thing!
 
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I agree SillyMare. TB's are still tops.

Having said that, what I would call the ultimate event horse is an SF - but then thats just anglo arab with a dash of french trotter.

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Having read that back it didn't sound clear...I was referring to
Galan Du Sauvage.
 
Galan De Sauvagere is a great example of WB on TB. His dam line is all TB, and his sire line traces back to some of the greats of French show jumping breeding (for example Ibrahim sire of the great Alme) - its taking proven jumping prowess and refining it with clever use of the right Tb blood, and he is a great example of a near as perfect eventer - moves well, scopey and powerful but plenty of athleticism and blood.
 
I agree with Sillymare. Look at the Worlds this year, the ones that made it round the xc course still with petrol in the tank were the TB types, the warmbloods although they did flashy dressage tests stuggled with the hills.

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Even successful studs deeply involved in breeding eventers seem to keep refering back in their breeding choices to "good" horses that, in my judgement, were catapulted to "excellent" status almost by chance, because they had excellent riders when eventing was developing as a sport. I have a sneaking feeling this may be true of the Ben Faerie family for example; yes, they are good, but are they THAT good?

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My boss has bred eventers for 40+ years. Her top mare was successful at 4* level and has bred advanced eventers. She is in the top 40 of mares breeding eventers and she is by Ben faerie. Primmores Pride is out of a mare by Ben faerie. Priceless, Nightcap and Walk on Star are all by Ben Faerie, so what is not good about them?
My boss mainly uses TB type stallions for her mares, which are TB types themselves. With a bit of pony/arab in them for the cleverness and the surefootedness. Stallions she has used that I know of are: Ben faerie, Welton Abassabor, Rock King, Mayhill, Kuwait Beach, Up with the Lark to name a few.
 
Now that eventing is short format the dressage and show jumping phases are more influential so I believe that horses with some WB will gain popularity. I still think for 4* you need at least 75% TB though.
 
Re, Ben Faerie; I think Priceless and Nightcap were the turning point for him; without the success of these two he would have died in obscurity and any special factor he may be contributing to the eventing gene pool would have been discovered too late, if ever. However, whilst his offspring admittedly had to have the ability to come up with the goods when asked, they also had the advantage of being ridden by a very gifted rider and because she took on two of his offspring, his success was underlined and his future as an eventing sire was assured. After that, he was bound to get good mares from hopeful breeders: as a tough, decent horse he'd be almost bound to breed something of value. But would that require brilliance on his part? I'm not sure. If he did pass on something special, something which made his offspring stand out in the first place, can we identify it? Find it in other lines, too?

I think the most amazing eventer I've ever seen was Murphy Himself; the sheer raw talent; if he was Irish x TB he really was more than the sum of his parts. Yet you see other Irish / TB crosses which are honest horses with a good jump but which seem coarse and plain by comparison; so what happened in his case? How do you reproduce that? (Of course, its all very well admiring him from the ground; he must have been terrifying to ride).

Re the warmblood cross; I did consider using a showjumping sire; one of the lighter modern types. But warmbloods themselves seem to be specialising; dressage or jumping- and at present the two disciplines seem to cancel each other out alarmingly; the dressage horses trot spectacularly and the jumpers jump spectacularly; on the spot, sometimes, hovering over the jump in an extreme bascule like a giant horsefly; no-one seems to gallop. Now, is that the wrong sort of jumping ability to introduce into an eventer, or will the ability to show jump in the modern manner cross disciplines and be an advantage? A lot of warmbloods also seem to have a rather upright shoulder and some of the French ones I've looked at are light of bone; does this matter? I would say it does, but maybe I'm thinking too much in TB terms.

The high regard for a bit of pony in the mix is really interesting: I would have thought you would have lost too much size and scope from using native blood, but what I'm reading seems to suggest that its value outweighs this loss.

Brilliant replies; there can't be many places where breeders and competitors can actually talk to each other about what to look for in a competition prospect. I've learnt more in a day, from your shared knowledge, than in the past six months of considering it for myself.
 
I disagree even top riders are now riding warmbloods. The first foal I bred out of my advanced WB x TB mare by Mayhill has just done his 1st 3* CCI in USA with Phillip Dutton. So even riders of his calibre are looking at WB crosses. Yes some WBs may be too careful for eventing and if they go airbourne over their fences, not only do they lose time, but also subject themselves to more wear and tear.
As for dressage and jumping disciplines cancelling themselves out, you tend to find that they are specifically bred for one discipline or the other and some say that mixing the two does not work. I wouldn't think you were likely to breed an eventer if you bred a warmblood with generations of dressage lines to a TB .
As for the upright shoulder, bad examples of any breed will have conformation faults but the warmbloods I know have had good sloping shoulders.
 
I think that for a top eventer they have to have a high percentage of TB blood- minimum 3/4 TB. Any heavier types are found seriously wanting on some XC courses even at 3 star level ( Air Jordan is a classic example of this) However with the current TB event sires I think that most of them really do lack the movement to produce the ultimate event star as fantastic dressage is so vital these days.

I think that the way forward is the top stock bred for racing- go to any top racehorse sales and you'll always see a good few examples of absolutely outstanding thoroughbreds- fautless conformation, breathtaking movement and although untried at jumping/eventing, with the kind of athleticsm they display when trotting up, Ive no doubt that they would be super jumpers as well. Yes they are perfectly capable of doing relaxed and calm dressage tests. Wether they'd be bold enough is questionable, but the majority of TB's do tend to be very brave. Toughness is something that a few of them should have.
Unfortunately these types of horses are often incredible racehorses and therefore way out of an event rider's price range even as foals.

I think that they have it all to be top class, the movement, the jump, the speed, stamina, and the pony cleverness on XC. Such a shame that we cant run an experiment to see how well these horses would do at eventing! As its only the failed racers that become the eventers, and I dont think that they are a patch on the quality of the top racehorses.

Re; event sires of old times, I agree that the Just a Monarch line is the best of all time? Nearly all of his stock are incredible jumpers and super XC horses. Perhaps a Rock King cross a top Thoroughbred mare as described above would produce a good event type?
 
I think there are warmblood jumping stallions out there that dont have that dramatic air time you mention and haven't had the movement bred out of them that will do the job. The way some of our top eventing breeders are adding in warmblood blood speaks volumes to me. Take Jaguar Mail, stunning SF stallion, half TB and from a stellar mare line. He is being used on some top eventing mares. He himself is a GP show jumper but as the blood type to produce eventers (or least thats what these breeders are hoping)
I think Trakehners are a fabulous choice for eventers - selectively bred for sport rather than galloping on the flat (which requires a different type of mechanics) I think they offer the best of both worlds - improved paces and jumping scope but with 'blood'. Obviously some lines are more dressage stamps but there are some fabulous eventing stamps.

The problem with adding pony blood in, is most people would like that pony blood to be 1/8 or 1/16. So who is going to make that first cross to get 50/50, and then hope that foal is good enough to breed from to get the next generation 75/25. You need to breed 3 generations just to get your 1/8 pony blood mixture. Obviously people have been doing this but if you wanted to get your perfect own blend of the right pony onto the right TB, you have to be prepared to wait 3 generations to see if you got it right!
 
Volatis - a number of years ago my mother put her 50/50 pony /TB to the local TB stallion. That ofspring went to Burghley. Many years down the line I am riding the sole representative of that line with 1/16th pony, I hope he will be the right one!

OP - I think looking at this year's GB team gives a great example of the types that can make the top. You've got native in Langarth Darcy, SF in Fachoudette, calculated line breeding in Flint Curtis, the best of Irish in Call again Cavalier (and Spring Along I believe?), and it's worth remembering that current "it" horse Miner's Frolic was bred to race....

Re using a showjumper, my best horse was bred to jump, his sire line was the classic Uriel one, whilst his mother was half TB. Unfortunately the work required for 4* fitness seemed to push his body past breaking point, so I always said my own ultimate eventer would carry Uriel in the sire line, and be full TB on the dam line! Haven't found that horse yet! In the meantime though I have bred my SF ( but containing 75% AA blood) mare to Mill Law, and will be trying again next year with her to Calypso D'Herbiers, a very light framed show-jumper, who interestingly has not been hugely used in France due to the popularity of his stable mates Le Tot and Diament de Semilly, and as a result will be moving to the UK next year and aimed at the event breeding market.
 
I would just like to add, that I too have enjoyed this thread, it has been one of the most interesting for some time. I know I will endevour to produce mine, so that any ability they do have will be forefilled.
 
Tiger's eye - that exactly what I mean - without your mother taking her half bred to a TB, and then carrying on that line over the next generations you wouldn't have your horse - out of interest is it a mare or gelding and what breed is the 1/16th bit? If it is a mare, what would you do for the next cross - back to another TB or would you want a stallion that was also a bit pony?

Call again cavalier is a good example of adding the jumper blood in - His sire Cavalier was Holstein, and classic Holstein too, Cor De La Bryere blood (SF) onto L line (Ladykiller), plus good old Cottage Son further back. So a big TB contribution in the pedigree but purposely bred and selected to jump over the generations. To me the Holstein, Trakehner and Selle Francais stud books are the ones I would look at to add the warmblood part of the equation, as there is the correct type of TB blood already there, we, the breeders, just need to add it to the right TB blood in our mare base
 
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Perhaps a Rock King cross a top Thoroughbred mare as described above would produce a good event type?

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That was my stallion of choice a few years back, he has limited semen left and at a guess its massively expensive!

I would have had an Its Without Doubt 7/8TB Mare (Welton Louis, Ben Faeire line) crossed with Just a Monarch which is a true TB line with tons of quality

And I will agree with the above comments, fab discussion going on!
 
gosh, i could talk about this all day. my friend used Pembridge Minstrel on my old Advanced event mare (1/8 irish, 7/8 tb, who was by Skyboy.) the resulting 4yr old is surprisingly light of bone, considering that the mare had a bit and the sire has cleveland bay in him... but he definitely didn't throw it on my mare! he's in Shropshire, afaik, if you want him. he was very very stuffy as a young horse under saddle (spoke to his former rider) but as honest as the day is long, hence his great comp. record.
for me, the ideal eventer is either pure tb or a dash of irish or pony, something to help with the 5th leg. it needs great conformation, good balance, a natural pop, and total trainability. the Welton horses weren't great athletes, but were incredibly trainable for the most part. that and sticking them with very good riders was a huge selling point.
 
Re what to look for when evaluating a potential eventer -- or assessing an animal as a potential sire or dam of an eventer:

Overall type: Should be between 15.3 and 16.3 hands. Yes, I know Headley Britannia is only 15.2 hh and some 6ft+ men need +17 hand horses to ride, but we are looking at ideal 4-star short course horse here and small horses tend to struggle to make the height over fences and larger ones often find the tight bounce elements difficult to cope with
Limbs: Must always be as correct as possible in alignment but cannon bones can be longer that would be ideal for a dressage horse as speed is more important than the ability to sit
Head, neck, shoudlder and body Quality and natural balance are essential as front must not be too downhill. Overall body length can be longer than either sj or dressage horses to cope with width of spreads taken on relatively long strides
Paces: Rhythmical swinging walk -- but not too much/extravagant overstep, balanced trot but need not be as showy as dressage horse, excellent ground covering, rhythmical canter and ability to lengthen and lower when asked to open up
Jump: Economical, athletic but bascule generally rather flatter than that needed for a show jumper, ability to jump from either long or short stride
Bloodlines: I used to believe a clean bred horse was essential but the amount of Trakehner blod now being used in successful horses is significant; other warmblood bloodlines used with success generally trace to either Anglo Arab (Cor de la Bryer / Alme) or TB (Sacramento Song etc) in the third generation if not before so it is the ability to accept ever more extacting training (especially for the dressage stage) that is really the input that the warmbloods have given.

In fact of the British-bred horses forward at the BE Eventing Championships at Twesledown last week just under 50% had at least 25% warmblood bloodlines in their pedigrees (including most of the winners) so if the foriegn studbooks thought that they could take the UK's place as the prime breeder of eventers by reformatting the competition to suit horses with wb in them then they will have to think again. British breeders have already been there, done that and very successfully too :-)

Or at least that's what I think!
 
The thing I love about eventers is that you oftne get 'freaks' who are not bred for the job at all yet acheive a huge amount of sucess. Gives hope to those who cant afford jazzy, expensive stallions!!
 
Maybe thats because (like great racehorses) a great eventer needs a great heart, and like Ciss's example of Headley brittania - the 'freaks' who have great heart and athleticism can make it to the top. How do you breed for great heart?
 
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Maybe thats because (like great racehorses) a great eventer needs a great heart, and like Ciss's example of Headley brittania - the 'freaks' who have great heart and athleticism can make it to the top. How do you breed for great heart?

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Brit IS bred in the purple for eventing though, she just happens to be an inch or two smaller than many of the other horses in the Badders field....

God knows how you breed for heart, other than pick out the gutsiest of the nicest animals. It's actually why I like to have pony blood- they tend to be cocky and relish a challenge. So many tbs (and, dare I say it, many more warmbloods) lack that quality.
 
Regarding Ben Faerie - Faerie Vision is by him and is certainly not ridden by a top class rider and yet has proved himself at both 3* and 4* level in 2006 and 2007. I think the Ben Faerie lines are all the better because top class mares have never really been used so he must clearly stamp his stock. I have not been impressed by his sons standing at stud but again they have legions of advanced horses.
 
My mare is 15.1 (just) and got to 2* level before the wear and tear go to her, and the fitness required to do the 3 days was too much. She was a chestnut mare who had the guts of something much much bigger

Hmmm interesting question to throw in here, but I feel you get more given from a mare rather than a gelding - opinions? Its not something thats been mentioned yet....
 
Unfortunately he's a he! But then again that's what we wanted when we bred him, all the mares of that line have been rather fond of human flesh! It's exmoor pony. We sold his mother before she got too old to sell as a riding horse, and by the time he started to look worthwhile it was impossible to track her down. I'm not too bothered about it though, I've got Deco to play with! Hypothetically if I William were a mare I would breed him to something about 16.2 - 17hh, built very uphill, very free-moving through the shoulder, as those are his weakest points, ideally a 3/4 bred.
 
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