Breeding an Eventer

[severnmiles]

Thats interesting Doff, Bonza Puzzle and Katoomba could spin like nothing else and were sooo spooky as is Slight of Hand. Matt always said the best xc horses are the spookiest....

Yet surely spooky horses are not necessarily very bold

 

[seabiscuit]

Really? how odd have never seen this before, but I stand to be corrected!
I wonder if Matt would get anywhere with Owen- he is seriously spooky when jumping and has proved to be a huge chicken on XC !!

 

[S_N]

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I honestly believe that the horses that will make the very best of eventers will hardly ever,if at all, have a 'backwards thought' . It will always be forwards thinking.You test this in a variety of ways. How does he react when you ask him to jump a ditch for the first time? how does he react when you ask him to trot over say a huge scary looking water tray/filler? or if you ask him to go through a huge murky looking puddle or water jump? or down/up steps etc. Just simple questions (bearing in mind that this is a young horse that you are looking at)

If they just do it without question- then you know, or you would hope, that you have a totally brave horse.

Another thing is when they are jumping- the horse spies the jump and goes 'yes'! I want to go!

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In that case, H will make a wonderful eventer!! He's never had a backwards thought, totally bold and inquisitive, not scared of water - the opposite infact! And he's happy to jump - well he did jump a 4ft fence with a 4ft spread in the summer - no he wasn't asked to, it was his field fence, made double because the pony on the otherside was trying to kill him through the fencing for talking to her field companion!!

 

[severnmiles]

Also, not sure if you know Hilltop xc course...Beth E knows it, there's the teeniest ditch there and when they first went xc schooling after moving to Hereford in 2001 Puzzle stopped dead..which had everyone else in hysterics. He was advanced then.

 

[S_N]

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Yet surely spooky horses are not necessarily very bold

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Again, only going on H, he is (as I've just said above) exceptionally bold (and yes we all know he's only a yearling), BUT if he hadn't spooked so violently at East of England, he wouldn't have pricked his foot and gone lame.......

 

[severnmiles]

Glad to hear he's spooky too, I always think they jump better on the last day

How is H?

 

[S_N]

H has stopped growing!! He's still bum high, but not as much as he was, but he hasn't grown for a fair while. I haven't seen any of mine for 2 days now

, as spent last night in A&E. YO called me this am and thinks the little sod may have a foot abcess - so she's going to sort him out with the farrier for me, as I cannae drive anywhere and even if I could, I wouldn't be able to see to him properly.......

How are your gang? Loving the pups btw!

 

[severnmiles]

A and E??

What happened?

Aww, more pics of H soon

Hope the abcess sorts itself relatively quickly.

They're all good, except I get nothing done with the pups now, its killed what social life I have too but in truth I absolutely love them and much harder than having a foal but I know which I prefer.... Surprisingly the pups! Bless them.

 

[S_N]

Awww puppies - love that puppy/milky smell! I have some very dusty pics of H, taken a few nights ago....... maybe I'll put a few up.

Post in Soapbox about my shoulder - I need a new job!!

 

[LEC]

See I disagree about backwards thoughts. I like a horse to be a bit spooky as I think it makes them careful and they tend to be thinking about things a bit more. Just because they are spooky does not mean they are not brave. Both of mine are spooky but Jimmy has never faulted xc and Yak is very bold.

 

[severnmiles]

[ QUOTE ]
See I disagree about backwards thoughts. I like a horse to be a bit spooky as I think it makes them careful and they tend to be thinking about things a bit more. Just because they are spooky does not mean they are not brave. Both of mine are spooky but Jimmy has never faulted xc and Yak is very bold.

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One extremely spooky horse was Over To You...and apparently Miners Frolic isn't that easy!

 

[S_N]

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apparently Miners Frolic isn't that easy!

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That doesn't surprise me in the slightest!! Mighty Frolic was a sharp cookie and Miner could be a sod!

 

[htobago]

Tamarillo was/is dreadfully spooky, apparently - yet look how amazing he is XC!

 

[severnmiles]

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Tamarillo was/is dreadfully spooky, apparently - yet look how amazing he is XC!

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Yes, isn't he the one they have to re-break after his holidays?

 

[magic104]

es, isn't he the one they have to re-break after his holidays?
Yes according to the rpt in H&H. Has anyone seen the article by L Green on Galan De Sauvagere, very interesting IMO.

 

[severnmiles]

10x10 stable

Mine are in 15x18's. Made for a good read.

 

[alleycat]

[ QUOTE ]

I honestly believe that the horses that will make the very best of eventers will hardly ever,if at all, have a 'backwards thought' . It will always be forwards thinking.You test this in a variety of ways. How does he react when you ask him to jump a ditch for the first time? how does he react when you ask him to trot over say a huge scary looking water tray/filler? or if you ask him to go through a huge murky looking puddle or water jump? or down/up steps etc. Just simple questions (bearing in mind that this is a young horse that you are looking at)

If they just do it without question- then you know, or you would hope, that you have a totally brave horse.



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This makes total sense & ought to be true; but the subsequent list of spooky eventers got me thinking; of the horses I've known, the bravest of them have also been very spooky. However the spookiness was a form of play; a sort of high spirits rather than genuine fear. Maybe, at its best, horse sport is play to horses as well as humans, and the horses who do best at it are the ones who are willing to indulge in play even (like the obsessed human hobbyist) when it becomes work. I know it sounds a bit trite, as the horse is 'volunteered' and wouldn't bother without the rider; but on the other hand I don't think you can bully a horse into competing at top level(even though you can abuse its co-operation).

The least genuine horse I've known was a mare who just didn't want to be there. She wasn't nasty or awkward; she just wasn't a participant.

The other tricky thing is, the TBs I've known have sometimes seemed quiet and almost wimpish, even 'doggy'; its only when they fire up that they become very competitive; it is easy to misjudge them.

That article in H&H looks really interesting; I'm away to read it now; I only just snatched a glimpse of it at lunchtime.

 

[machannah]

Spooking is fine, again its so long as they are going forward!

My mare is as sharp as it comes (supposedly a trait in her breed line), however the spooks are not backward thinking, they are almost a tendancy to see and take account of everything, its a level of alertness which is higher than most of the "average" or "normal" horses which is the supreme upper hand on the XC imo, its the ability to think and react very quickly

 

[htobago]

Alleycat that's a v interesting thought - I think you are probably right, and that 'playfulness' is very important - and spookiness can often just be a sign of alertness and interest in their surroundings, also good traits.

But if you are right about the 'play' element, then my little boy should do well - he's the most playful horse I've ever met, and will make a 'game' out of anything!

A leaf blows into the sand school, and he spends 10 minutes chasing it around and pouncing on it like a kitten; when he can't find anything to spook at, he kicks the fence and then 'spooks' at the noise, charging off snorting in 'fear'; give him a horseball and he grabs it in his teeth, stands bolt upright and boxes at it with his front feet; he will 'race' anything that moves, including his own shadow...oh, and we once caught him jumping a show jump that had been left up in the school, just for fun!

Now, he's just a little Arab, highly unlikely ever to make a great eventer, but this is the kind of attitude I would like in any horse, for any discipline - that spirit of curiosity and always wanting to try something new...

Maybe we'll breed another Tamarillo from him one day.

Fascinating thread, by the way.

 

[seabiscuit]

I think that there is a difference in spookiness; a horse can be spooky and saying 'no, I dont really want to do it' OR a horse can be spooky but it is more of a 'WOW that looks interesting... but Im still going to go for it ' which is more of what Tamarillo's attitude is like, and perhaps to his slight downfall.

 

[alleycat]

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A leaf blows into the sand school, and he spends 10 minutes chasing it around and pouncing on it like a kitten

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I would so love to see this. Htobago you just HAVE to video him and show us!

Actually I think that this breed's playful, inquisitive nature and its eagerness to respond to humans is delightful and probably valuable in a breeding programme.

 

[SillyMare]

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The other tricky thing is, the TBs I've known have sometimes seemed quiet and almost wimpish, even 'doggy'; its only when they fire up that they become very competitive; it is easy to misjudge them.

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So glad you said that - I have a TB who is absolutely lovely but just as you describe. Has just done his 1st season BE at Intro / PN. Really hope he finds his bold and competitive side soon!

 

[LEC]

I found the faster pace of Novice has really helped my TB he is a lot less spooky and looking for trouble than he is at PN. He is very laid back but I have had much better rides at Novice where as at PN we pootle round.

 

[kerilli]

it's not just TBs. i had a homebred who was a right wuss at PN, i thought she'd never go novice. ditto at Novice, i thought she'd never go Intermediate. she was the most consistent xc horse i've ever had at Int, and would definitely have gone Adv if she'd been tough enough. sometimes it takes a while for the clever, careful ones to get the hang of it and to build up trust.

 

[Nickymac]

Someone made the comment about H as a 4yo that he "wasn't enough of a tiger" to be a really good event horse, but slowly slowly he seems to be getting there as his self-belief grows. I'm sure a lot of fantastic horses fall by the wayside because they're rushed or just plain misunderstood along the way. Event horses don't produce themselves, so a lot of it must be down to how their talents are channelled. I still think that temperament and trainability would be uppermost in my mind when trying to breed an eventer, and as much in the mare as in the stallion.

 

[htobago]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


A leaf blows into the sand school, and he spends 10 minutes chasing it around and pouncing on it like a kitten

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I would so love to see this. Htobago you just HAVE to video him and show us!

Actually I think that this breed's playful, inquisitive nature and its eagerness to respond to humans is delightful and probably valuable in a breeding programme.

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Oh - I wish I'd had a video camera there - the leaf game was just priceless.

I think you're right about inquisitiveness as well. Tobago went through a phase of trying to get onto the roof of a field-shelter in his paddock - he would spend ages bolt upright on his hind legs, trying to see what was up there on that roof, even walking around it on two legs to get a better look! There was absolutely nothing up there - we checked - but he just had to investigate!

And you're right about the response to humans - he just loves people: he plays a nodding game over the stable door, where if you nod at him he will nod back at you, and the nods get bigger and bigger until he's bouncing up and down. I had to stop my mother playing this game with him, cos they were both getting over-excited...

 

[alleycat]

Stop it, Htobago, STOP IT! You're making me want to have an Anglo Arab again- and if I breed one I shouldn't be able to part with it; I should have to keep it for myself... Just when I thought I'd got my Habit under control. (Seriously though, I'd love to see your boy on video).

Before this topic falls off the bottom of the page into oblivion, I'd like to say thanks to everyone for replying & sharing views; I've learned loads here; and I think for me two things which I'll be considering in a stallion which I just wouldn't have thought of before are: a sort of playfulness, even if it manifests as peskiness- a willingness to interact, lets say; and suppleness, fluency. Reading these posts; the emphasis on trainability, plus the apparently contradictory info about spooking; then seeing that video of Bits & Pieces followed by that article by Lucinda Green in this weeks H&H, where she remarks on what seem to be the same qualities in Galan d.S. (

can't spell it) makes me think that these are some of the hard to define qualities that make a horse great.

Reading about people taking their horses through the grades, increasing their confidence, has brought home to me, too, how important the human imput is; how much a successful event horse is half of a partnership. It sounds a bit Parrelli-speak, but I think the idea of the horse viewing its work as a game which it must enjoy if it is to be really good at it will stay with me.

One last question- I should go off and research this, but people n here will know the answer already- what breeds / types do the Continental riders ride for preference? I can see that Selle Francais are an obvious choice; the near-TB types that were mentioned- also Trakeheners- but am I right in thinking that many use Irish and TB horses? And are there not types or strains apart from this that are considered ideal for eventing: Some Eastern European horses, or that breed of Hannovarian (or was it Holstein) racehorses, that had more TB in them than the normal warmblood & were bred for speed; or what is it that generally wins the Pardubice?

 

[kerilli]

Polish TBs for the pardubice, i thought... one mare who'd won it a few times came over here and did the Grand National, and wouldn't have been able to if she hadn't been clean bred, i think. could be totally wrong though!

 

[magic104]

I did not think NH hunt horses needed to be full TB but being entered into the NTR reg was enough?

 

[maestro]

It has been fascinating reading and I think results tend to show that for eventing at the top level the mainly TB is still the strongest and possibly will always will be when true stamina comes to play. However ther is always the freaks such as Murphy Himself who I saw in a Demo when he was retired and walked passed him once as he looked like a little cob!
Our own Weston Justice was a right pain in the butt until we started jumping and competing him and then we realized what a star we had and that want and need to be competitive was what made him such a success and that is the final ingredient in breeding an eventer we are always looking for.