Breeding - does it matter? A musing... (note that is 2 words, don't expect comedy)

scheherazade said:
Really interesting input, as another thought, if you are an amateur does it make you feel better or slightly inadequate if you buy a horse related to something that's been round badminton / won thousands in grand prix / is totilas etc????
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I wouldn't have thought it made any difference at all to most people really. Breeding might be useful in helping you find the right horse for the job you want to do, but once you have said horse in your stable I doubt many constantly think about its pedigree!
 
I went to look at foals recently with a friend who is a true amateur and wants a nice alrounder in a few years so we went solely on bloodlines. We stood in a field of 4 week old foals all similarly bred (same sire) and it was clear which would be suitable for her. 2 were clearly pro's horses, rangy big & bold/precocious, one was confident but calm & all were friendly. We went for confident/calm/friendly.

the horses are competition bred, but have some unusual bloodlines, which I think will make them biddable & hardy. It will be very interesting to see how this foal turns out for her.

My friend is concerned that the horse which is very beautiful & well bred will be too good a horse for her - based on it's bloodlines/breeding, but so long as the temperament is right then I think you should buy the best horse you can afford. Horse doesn't know it could have gone advanced and cr*p horses cost the same to keep as nice ones.
 
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I think if you want a topclass SJer, or dressage horse, you're much more likely to get that with good breeding. However......a lot of them tend to be quirky.

Our old horse Miro was by the same sire as Mistral Horjis, was he good at dressage? Yes. Superb paces! For anything else though? No. He was neurotic and worried over everything. Hacking him was a nightmare (do-able, but not enjoyable for horse or rider). He would spook at his own shadow. However Fabio is of unknown breeding and is a good allrounder. His dressage leaves a lot to be desired but he'll have a good try for you. He hacks, jumps, good temperament, easy to do in all ways. Far easier horse!

If you're a good enough rider for a competition horse and plan to compete to a decent level then i think its worth going for a horse with bloodlines that should make them good at that discipline. For anyone wanting just an everyday allrounder i don't think its really worth it.
 
siennamum said:
I went to look at foals recently with a friend who is a true amateur and wants a nice alrounder in a few years so we went solely on bloodlines. We stood in a field of 4 week old foals all similarly bred (same sire) and it was clear which would be suitable for her. 2 were clearly pro's horses, rangy big & bold/precocious, one was confident but calm & all were friendly. We went for confident/calm/friendly.

the horses are competition bred, but have some unusual bloodlines, which I think will make them biddable & hardy. It will be very interesting to see how this foal turns out for her.
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Thanks siennamum, do you think that all the foals would have similar innate ability however, based on the breeding alone, or do you think talent is more of a lottery than that? Or to put it another way, would any foal by, say, Hickstead, have phenomenal jumping ability (regardless of whether that potential was tapped or not)
 
Re Hickstead, btw, he was decently bred but his sire is hardly the be all and end all. His dam was probably the one who brought the most to the party and knowledgeable people seemed to feel that jumping-wise he mostly took after him damsire, Ekstein, who has had some very good stock.

Also, Hickstead did not get approved by his studbook (although he has a full brother approved by Z apparently) when he was presented, possibly because he was small.

That's the thing, it's not really just about the sire (or the dam, although I'd get in the car to look at anything by a proven mare!) it's about how all the pieces fit together.

Re foals . . .I think it takes a very special eye to be able to see the future. I certainly know a special one when I see it - it's quite an experience, actually - but not sure I could look at a bunch in a field and tell you what they'll all do with their lives.

The French did a study tracking foals, testing at various points for temperament and athletic ability. I have looked in vain for the results though.
 
When I was looking for a youngster to eventually take jumping (he's a yearling now), I researched the pedigree very very thoroughly; found out the damsire although a son of Cruising (notoriously tricky) , was competed by teenage riders when still entire over decent 1.30 metre tracks, dams damline produced pony club eventers that went to national championships, so all very rideable by 'normal' people.
The dams grandfather also sired 4* eventers. Spoke to the dam's breeder who could tell me in detail about 4 generations of the line.

The sire is Zangershiede bred so out and out jumping lines.

I think I'm hedging my bets for a jumper, breeding is all you have to go on when you are buying a foal.

What was the question again? :D
 
I haven't read the entire thread but, as usual, agree with TarrSteps. The mare is oft forgotten, overlooked or at best given less consideration than the stallion but it takes two to tango as they say.

When we source horses in Ireland a nice pedigree is just that, nice to have but temperament and willingness to work with the rider or handler takes precedence for me. That said there are certain bloodlines which tend to have identifiable traits and make me attracted to or side step the horses but I try to look at each one with an open mind.

For example, every Star Kingdom (ID) offspring I've met has been cooperative, helpful and polite but perhaps I have just been lucky, or right in buying the ones with the correct outlook. Similarly, most Lux Z mares I've met have been blood, sharp and clever as cats but not for the feint hearted - like our own one! I'll stop there for fear of reinventing the stallion traits thread but I'd reiterate that for me, temperament, a cooperative nature and natural talent is much more important than having a well bred sod!
 
foxy1 said:
When I was looking for a youngster to eventually take jumping (he's a yearling now), I researched the pedigree very very thoroughly; found out the damsire although a son of Cruising (notoriously tricky) , was competed by teenage riders when still entire over decent 1.30 metre tracks, dams damline produced pony club eventers that went to national championships, so all very rideable by 'normal' people.
The dams grandfather also sired 4* eventers. Spoke to the dam's breeder who could tell me in detail about 4 generations of the line.

The sire is Zangershiede bred so out and out jumping lines.

I think I'm hedging my bets for a jumper, breeding is all you have to go on when you are buying a foal.

What was the question again? :D
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foxy1 - out of curiosity how is your boy bred? I ask as I have a 5yo gelding by a son of Corland out of a mare by a son of Cruising and a more althletic, pleasant and cooperative horse you'd go far to find. Sounds like a roughly similar mix and if ours is anything to go by yours will be a delight.
 
scheherazade said:
Thanks siennamum, do you think that all the foals would have similar innate ability however, based on the breeding alone, or do you think talent is more of a lottery than that? Or to put it another way, would any foal by, say, Hickstead, have phenomenal jumping ability (regardless of whether that potential was tapped or not)
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HaHa the horse world would be awash with superstars if it were that easy.

All Breeders are trying to breed ' the one' and 99% won't make top top level. The ones that don't make it are often the ones who are
' bred' for the job and on paper should jump the moon but don't have the temperament or ability and nor the correct training to hit top flight.

Those that don't make the top grade are then often the ones who run into trouble when sold to less than capable riders who want the prestige of the well bred horse but don't have the wherewithall to cope with the tantrums and issues than can come with it.
 
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^^^ this. and also, that huge athleticism is fabulous when it is working for you but hell when it's suddenly working against you... i've only had this with WBs but it's not fun at all! and an amateur mounted on an athletic, high-bred, bored stupid horse is not a good combination, frequently.
the individual horse's temperament, trainability, generosity mean more than the bloodline itself imho.
having said which, i like to know the breeding, and there are certain bloodlines that i will get very excited about, because they hint that you are possibly going to get more horse than you are actually looking at, iyswim... but it is very difficult (and dodgy) to generalise, or make assumptions, based on breeding alone - the horse may be atypical, it may be a bit of a throwback (for better or worse!), and that's not even taking the nature/nurture debate into account.
 
measles said:
foxy1 - out of curiosity how is your boy bred? I ask as I have a 5yo gelding by a son of Corland out of a mare by a son of Cruising and a more althletic, pleasant and cooperative horse you'd go far to find. Sounds like a roughly similar mix and if ours is anything to go by yours will be a delight.
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The Dam is by Clydecruiser, who is still jumping and winning now at 1.30 level aged 15 having started BS age 4 and jumped every season since (sound horse!) and won a 2 fence challenge at 1.85m, Dam's grandsire Majestic Streak sire of at least 7 4* eventers that I can find, and 10 winning National Hunt horses, having only sired about 50 horses (that I can find!)

Sire is a son of Chellano Z, 'C' line like your Corland boy, out of a mare with Ramiro/Alme bloodlines (same as the very famous Ratina Z).

Similar mix to yours, I'm very excited about him!! :D

Out of interest, what do you make of Clover Hill horses? I had one that was a nappy so and so, but a lot of people find them easy?
 
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