Dressage Breeding- German studbooks split over stallion licensing and doping over young horses

[tristar]

I haven’t been ignoring this thread as I find it interesting. It’s the type of thing I mull over a lot in my own mind anyway. I still don’t think I’m any further forward as it’s quite a difficult topic, balancing act. I struggling to put down what I want to say in any real coherent form, so apologies.

Firstly - prohibited medication in performance testing I don’t think anyone, where ever you sit, will agree this is a path we should accept. It needs to be cracked down on pronto.

For me the ideal would be for any young stallion to be produced under saddle at an appropriate rate for that individual. They all are different. And whilst I don’t object to a 3yo doing a bit of work it really is in very few best (none in my book) best interest to be seen in public at that age. And to some extent that argument applies to some 4yos too. The problem being that there will always be the underlying pressure to just do that but more so the horse isn’t negatively judged for being too green, too weak, too whatever. But then you do that bit more and you risk overdoing it mentally an/or physically. It’s a fine balance for the horse and for the commercial element. A similar argument applies in performance age classes. The small % that are naturally at that level without the behind the scenes excessive production aren’t always distinguishable from the overdone ones. And in ridden horses the natural ones are normally the bubble wrapped ones not in the public eye at 4 anyway.

But then if you are going to breed from a young horse - which many studs need to do to be commercial (which let’s just accept sport horse breeding is) then something has to set that young horse apart to encourage breeders to use it. Genetics, type, movement and X-rays can all be evaluated at 3 (even 2), to shortlist potential young candidates. It’s the ride/train ability and long term soundness that is really what you need but also cannot be as easily evaluated at that age. The mere act of producing commercially from 2/3 years old could be argued to put the individual at a disadvantage to prove those traits long term.

So I think overall, licensing a year later and shortening the ridden requirements is probably a good balance to strike.

To be honest I’m not up to speed enough with the various stud book requirements, so this quite possibly already happens, but I’d say presented in hand as a 3yo the good ones should have approval for limited test covers and then once under saddle they get that expanded for more and once reach a time point for competitive achievement expanded further? Just musings, I haven’t really thought that through enough.

Then my own interest.
Eventing.
What a tricky discipline to breed for.
Genetic lines are relatively easy to select for in pure Dr & SJ. But what are eventers??? They are mongrels that aren’t good enough for Dr or Sj in the purest of discipline, but equally are in their own league of special. They are really mutants ?

The sport is evolving so quickly that the brave galloping tb, who scratched around the dressage and rubbed a couple of poles, is no longer particularly desirable at any level. Yet we still need that tb influence so that the horses can work with the ease that means you don’t end up over fittening and breaking them down at 3/4* level.

Another topic, British Breeding. Boy do we have a way to go, despite the imperfections I can list with the continental systems.

Having just watched the Eventing section of the British Breeding stallion show I have just about recovered from the deeply cringeworthy descriptions and performance of most of the entrants. Granted all the non pure Dr or pure Sj were dumped into one lot (eventers), where in reality probably 75% were lower level allrounders or show horses. Some really did not deserve to have their balls on even for allrounder/show category. A couple were so cringy I wouldn’t give them time as geldings.

Im sure more incoherent thoughts will pop into my head!

there is a lot to think about!

 

[tristar]

Really? I doubt any breeder has the combined knowledge of all the people that make up a stallion approval panel. They can tell you how your horse rates in comparison with the entire breed standard, with the added benefit of often centuries of collating type and performance. I have bred warmbloods whose stud book began in 1732, and the wealth of knowledge behind the breed is astounding, allowing astonishingly accurate predictions on temperament, trainability, athleticism, size, hoof health, etc., etc. The same has applied to my PRE horses, although I do not breed them I can ask about any number of traits before purchase, and also get in-depth genetic information.

I have a lot of faith in the stallion approval system and worked hard to get a better level of competence in both the Irish Draught and Connemara Pony approval panels, which previously was very much based on letting breeders pass their own stock (with frankly pathetic results).

no one knows your horse like you do

 

[tristar]

There is a phenomenon called "barn blindness", or maybe a better name would be "fond parent syndrome"; it's always good to have an unbiased, knowledgeable eye on any stock. A large part of a larger studbook approval system includes testing for genetic problems and the ability to apply an overview of statistics. You only have to look at the current state of dog breeding to see what happens when there aren't any standards other than fashion. Of course there are good breeders out there, there are also some complete idiots that just breed because they want to with no clue whatsoever.

"i suppose if you have 59 other people to approve a horse it does not say much for your own sense of judgement"
It does if they approve the horse.............

i have never thought geese are swans, pretty ruthless when it comes to breeding,

its already going the way of dog breeding, pushing the barriers of movement in breeds which have not caught up in the soundness department

 

[ycbm]

There are plenty of "ordinary" approved horses out there to choose for breeding, you don't have to choose an extravagant type.

But will that continue to be the case in future? The Norwegians, for example, have just banned the breeding of two breeds of dogs because they haven't managed to persuade people to stop breeding for extreme characteristics. I see the same happening in Arabs and dressage warmbloods, and TBs are so inbred I remember reading that they are pretty much all half brothers and sisters (though that may be an exaggeration). And now we have cloning too.
.

 

[ycbm]

I wonder how much of this [experience with your GP bred and mongrel horses] is to do with how they're brought up, rather than their bloodlines?

Well it's a very small sample but the horse I have now is one of the most level headed mongrels I've ever come across and his life from 1 to 2 years old was abusive - kept alone in a stable, entire, and occasionally lunged on a bog for exercise. One of my GP bred warmbloods came from a SJ stallion described as "quirky" and another had kissing spines which are now known to have a hereditary impact. The first of those was a congenital wobbler, and wobblers are being bred from because they often produce a big movement, which he had.
.

 

[tristar]

i`ve recently had x rays of my home breds 12 15 years for info reviewing spine and major joints and how hereditary plus wear and tear have affected them up to middle age, all were classed as `excellent` and no arthritis visible

 

[Kareen]

Having grown up with it I do well remember the times when 100d and even 300d performance tests were still the norm for breeding stallions. To a point we have lost that selection process when breeding became so commercialized and modern technology allowed individual stallions to become hyped and reproduce hundred- and thousandfold within their first few seasons of breeding while in the days before AI a stallion high in demand would accumulate no more than a couple hundred offspring over his lifetime.
More often than not we also see the celebrated stars presented to us in glossy brochures being sold of very short after entering their breeding career, they either end up being moved abroad for €€ or else they get gelded and sell as sporthorses while in the old days a lot more stallions were allowed the time it took for them to make a name by what they produced.

I don't disagree with the concept of licensing per se but I do think a step by step process would be more sensible like the Dutch and many other breeds do it. It would also help a great deal if judges and FN would put their scores where their mouth is and not reward artificial and exaggerated producing which often goes with untimely starting and unethical treatment such as the one that was just revealed with the Fluphenazine case Escaneno. Of course the horse is not to blame for the poor / illegal choices his management made but the point is: The stallion couldn't care less whether he has a future in breeding. I suppose with the way most breeding stallions are kept throughout their life there are a lot that would opt for gelding and being left alone if given a choice

It's definitely sending the wrong signal if said stallion is allowed to reproduce despite his 3 months ban which is merely a nuisance to his owner. But that is what happens just now. They didn't even refrain from presenting him under saddle just days after the doping-case came to light. How much blunter can you say 'stuff you' when regulations are violated and you've been caught redhandedly?

 

[tristar]

with freezing its possible to breed whenever you want, so no need to breed so young, but possible to wait and see the end product

 

[Cortez]

with freezing its possible to breed whenever you want, so no need to breed so young, but possible to wait and see the end product

Sorry, I don't get your point - surely the whole point of breeding from young stallions is that you can evaluate their get ASAP and remove them from the register and geld if it's not up to scratch?

 

[tristar]

don`t breed until the stallion itself is old enough to show its mature self, and can be evaluated fully, and a decision made to breed or castrate, the ai is an insurance against loss by accident in the mean time

 

[Cortez]

don`t breed until the stallion itself is old enough to show its mature self, and can be evaluated fully, and a decision made to breed or castrate, the ai is an insurance against loss by accident in the mean time

Not commercially feasible when breeding is a business. When I was breeding (Trakehners) licenses were under constant review and could be withdrawn if the progeny weren't up to scratch, which also meant the mares were chosen carefully.

 

[tristar]

commercial feasibility should not be the priority


breeding sound horses should be

 

[ihatework]

commercial feasibility should not be the priority


breeding sound horses should be

Far far too simplistic I’m afraid.

 

[Cortez]

commercial feasibility should not be the priority


breeding sound horses should be

Breeding unsound horses isn't a wise long term commercial strategy.

 

[tristar]

Breeding unsound horses isn't a wise long term commercial strategy.

but it appears to some extent going on, i thought that what this thread is about

 

[tristar]

Far far too simplistic I’m afraid.

nothing simple about breeding good sound horses, if the young stallions coming through are on drugs at a young age, it would appear

 

[ihatework]

nothing simple about breeding good sound horses, if the young stallions coming through are on drugs at a young age, it would appear

Eh?

 

[LEC]

nothing simple about breeding good sound horses, if the young stallions coming through are on drugs at a young age, it would appear

Good conformation helps…. A lot of faults are creeping in IMO like German shepherd dogs

 

[YorkshireLady]

i would hope that we are at a point where away from going the way of GSD or other dogs that could be used as examples...not withstanding the breathing issues already seen in Arabs. I may though be being optimistic

 

[Willow1306]

I haven’t been ignoring this thread as I find it interesting. It’s the type of thing I mull over a lot in my own mind anyway. I still don’t think I’m any further forward as it’s quite a difficult topic, balancing act. I struggling to put down what I want to say in any real coherent form, so apologies.

Firstly - prohibited medication in performance testing I don’t think anyone, where ever you sit, will agree this is a path we should accept. It needs to be cracked down on pronto.

For me the ideal would be for any young stallion to be produced under saddle at an appropriate rate for that individual. They all are different. And whilst I don’t object to a 3yo doing a bit of work it really is in very few best (none in my book) best interest to be seen in public at that age. And to some extent that argument applies to some 4yos too. The problem being that there will always be the underlying pressure to just do that but more so the horse isn’t negatively judged for being too green, too weak, too whatever. But then you do that bit more and you risk overdoing it mentally an/or physically. It’s a fine balance for the horse and for the commercial element. A similar argument applies in performance age classes. The small % that are naturally at that level without the behind the scenes excessive production aren’t always distinguishable from the overdone ones. And in ridden horses the natural ones are normally the bubble wrapped ones not in the public eye at 4 anyway.

But then if you are going to breed from a young horse - which many studs need to do to be commercial (which let’s just accept sport horse breeding is) then something has to set that young horse apart to encourage breeders to use it. Genetics, type, movement and X-rays can all be evaluated at 3 (even 2), to shortlist potential young candidates. It’s the ride/train ability and long term soundness that is really what you need but also cannot be as easily evaluated at that age. The mere act of producing commercially from 2/3 years old could be argued to put the individual at a disadvantage to prove those traits long term.

So I think overall, licensing a year later and shortening the ridden requirements is probably a good balance to strike.

To be honest I’m not up to speed enough with the various stud book requirements, so this quite possibly already happens, but I’d say presented in hand as a 3yo the good ones should have approval for limited test covers and then once under saddle they get that expanded for more and once reach a time point for competitive achievement expanded further? Just musings, I haven’t really thought that through enough.

Then my own interest.
Eventing.
What a tricky discipline to breed for.
Genetic lines are relatively easy to select for in pure Dr & SJ. But what are eventers??? They are mongrels that aren’t good enough for Dr or Sj in the purest of discipline, but equally are in their own league of special. They are really mutants ?

The sport is evolving so quickly that the brave galloping tb, who scratched around the dressage and rubbed a couple of poles, is no longer particularly desirable at any level. Yet we still need that tb influence so that the horses can work with the ease that means you don’t end up over fittening and breaking them down at 3/4* level.

Another topic, British Breeding. Boy do we have a way to go, despite the imperfections I can list with the continental systems.

Having just watched the Eventing section of the British Breeding stallion show I have just about recovered from the deeply cringeworthy descriptions and performance of most of the entrants. Granted all the non pure Dr or pure Sj were dumped into one lot (eventers), where in reality probably 75% were lower level allrounders or show horses. Some really did not deserve to have their balls on even for allrounder/show category. A couple were so cringy I wouldn’t give them time as geldings.

Im sure more incoherent thoughts will pop into my head!

I'd be really interested to hear a review from this event as I had hoped to go to look at the Event and SJ stallions but got waylaid. If you have time to comment on any in particular, even by PM, i'd be interested.

 

[ihatework]

I'd be really interested to hear a review from this event as I had hoped to go to look at the Event and SJ stallions but got waylaid. If you have time to comment on any in particular, even by PM, i'd be interested.

You can watch it all back on clip my horse tv ?

I’m wary of slating peoples much loved horses in public.

From the Eventing line up the only younger one I’d consider at this stage is Jacondrik. Of the the older ones I’d consider Amiro or LePrince, mare dependant.

If I were looking for a nice sporty allrounder/eventer/mid level I wouldn’t discount Britannias Mail or Future Gravitas.

The pony Bijou showed himself off well too.

Chrysler Key presented in SJ is an interesting young one for eventing too.

 

[Goldenstar]

It cannot be beyond the wit of man to develop a system for grading stallions that has levels that are age appropriate and reduce the need for overtraining when young .

 

[Willow1306]

You can watch it all back on clip my horse tv ?

I’m wary of slating peoples much loved horses in public.

From the Eventing line up the only younger one I’d consider at this stage is Jacondrik. Of the the older ones I’d consider Amiro or LePrince, mare dependant.

If I were looking for a nice sporty allrounder/eventer/mid level I wouldn’t discount Britannias Mail or Future Gravitas.

The pony Bijou showed himself off well too.

Chrysler Key presented in SJ is an interesting young one for eventing too.

Thanks, i didn't realise it was going to be on clipmyhorse. Will sort out watching that.
I don't like naming and shaming either, but it's good to hear positive reviews where due.
Thanks