Breeding large breeds

J

jo1

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After lots of discussion me and OH have decided to breed our 2 girls. Have found 2 stud dogs and spoken to the breeder etc.

Has anyone got any advice etc for me - I havent bred a dog before but OH has (many moons ago!!!LOL)

The breeder has told me to take the girls to the vet when they come in season and the vet will be able to tell me on what day they need to go to the dogs. However do I take them when they first start to bleed or when I see they are ready to start breeding???

All advice, infomation etc would be greatly appreciated!!!!!! Have been told to expect a litter average of 9 so would have approx 20 saints!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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When i was ready to breed my weimaraner i investing in a book called the book of the bitch, it tell you all you need to know, i was nervous as i had never done it before but this book is great ...really saved my nerves.
I got my copy from ebay, it is around £10 but really no need for the vet to tell you when they will be ready.
 
You take them to the stud dog, when the bleeding has stopped and there is discharge, this is where most people get caught out and think they have finished their session and dogs gets pregnent.

When the mating has happend you can get in touch with your vet who will be able to preform a scan at a later date, this indicates how many puppies there are. This can be life saving, we knew how many our bitch was having and when she stopped delivering at 5 puppies with a long break, we had to race to the vets for an emergency op. Had we not known, she and other 4 puppies would have died.

You also need a large welping box for bitch and puppies, you will find pictures on the internet and your oh can make one. This prevents puppies from being layed on and squashed. At £500 plus a puppy you dont really want to be loosing one.

The bitch will clean the puppies top and tail them for the first 2 - 3 weeks and when you start giving them additional food, she will stop cleaning them. I would start collecting newspaper as you will need piles of the stuff. We changed beds of newspaper to protect floor and stop puppies getting covered in wee and poo every 2 - 3 hours. You will be amazed how much hard work it is and if you are going to have 2 litters at the same time, pens, newspapers etc will be needed.

Another handy tip, is to get them advertised as soon as you can on the kennel club website as you will want them re-homed for 8 weeks and it does not give you long to advertise and market them. From experience the kennel club, take a good few days to post your advert, so the earlier the better. Another successful form of advertising for me has been the horse and hound, where I have found some lovely homes.

The diet for your bitches is going to change, and I bought dog packs of frozen mince and chicken and get a large chest freezer full of it. I cooked daily for my bitch as soon as she had been covered. The expense of feeding the bitches, whelping and feeding the puppies soons mounts up.

I enjoyed breeding my bitch and had a wonderful time with her puppies and would definately do it again. She whelped a week early, luckily it was on a Sunday and we were home. We had planned our leave to be for the due dates and so, with her needing an emergency op and nearly loosing her, planning your diary to be there ahead of the date would not be a bad idea.
 
Thats all fantastic advice - Thank you

My OH has already arranged to have his 4 weeks holiday all together. Luckily his boss is really understanding and doesnt really need to know his date - he can just call him and tell him.

We have to take both girls to Nottingham where the studs would be brought as well - kind of like a halfway motel!!!!! LOL

Have found the most perfect studs for them!!!!!!!!!

Got dad working on 2 6ftx4ft whelping boxes. Will be turning my spare room into a whelping room as well as part of my living room.

The breeder has offered to let me advertise the pups on her website - as soon as my girls are confirmed in pup their pictures will be going on the website along with the dads - free publicity. The last litter she advertised on there sold within 3 days!!!!!

Im getting really ecited - neith of my girls have bred before and are nearly 4. Just worried that with the puppies head being so big they will neeed a c section!! Knowing my luck both at the same time LOL
 
I am not a dog breeder so can't offer any advice, just had a question I'm curious to ask!
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Is there are particular reason you are having the 2 bitches have puppies at the same time? Sounds as though it is going to be stressful and hard work enough with one litter of St. Bernards! I think I would be worried about coping with 2
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! Especially if things don't run to plan and esp if it is your first time
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Sounds SO exciting... I'm very much looking forward to seeing pics of Bernard pups!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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The reason being they are litter sisters and havent actually been seperated before. Have been advised by both their breeder, stud breeder and vet to let them have pups together otherwise one can get very jealaous(sp) and could even kill the pups!!!!!

Now with the time, effort and cost going into these pups and a £800 per dog stud fee I want to try and keep all these pups alive!!!!! LOL
 
Sounds like you intend keeping the puppies indoors. I would suggest you take up your carpets and staple down waterproof pond liner and then cover it with newspaper. Otherwise you will have rotting floor boards.

A friend had a wooden floor and did'nt protect it, consequently it had to be taken up and thrown out!!!

I kept mine indoors whilst only the bitch was feeding and cleaning them. They then went out into a stable with a pen and heat lamps. For large breeds and two litters you could have 20 plus pups, the cost of the damage to your house, will be aprox 1 litter if you dont do something. It might be cheaper to invest in a couple of sheds.

Just another word of warning
 
Thanks

I already have a large kennel and covered run which the pups will be in during the day with mum(am goind to buy a second)

However the breeder has advised me not to have them outside until at least 4 weeks old and even then supervised at first and never over night?

I have laminate floor all over the house anyway.

What age would you recommend the pups to go outside. We are mating them back end of March/April time so will be summer when pups arrive.
 
You first and formost if not already done so ..............Need both of these bitches hip scored and eyes tested and you need to see proof and good scores for the stud dogs, if breeding is absoloutley neccesary you need to know that you are breeding from good healthy specimens to rule out hereditary breed problems and you also need to set a side atleast £1000-£1500 incase of an emercency c-section in one or both bitches if this is a first litter.
Please think long and hard before going ahead and breeding and to where these puppies are to be sold, there are thousands and thousands of rescue dogs due to un-nessecary breeding............so please be aware of the situations these puppies can end up in once money has been exchanged, as paying a large sum of money for a dog does not guarantee a secure and good home. Regards
 
Ooh it all sounds awfully exciting.
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You may just change your mind about the pups living outdoors though. You are likely to have a minimum of 4 pups and the 2 huge mums and the pups could make a dreadful mess of your house, as a previous poster said. When they wee, your laminate flooring will be in jeopardy of bulging, so the idea of putting down polyethylene is a good one.

I hope it all works out well and I'm sure we would all love to see your beautiful puppies once they are born.
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What age would you recommend the pups to go outside.

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Personally if they were mine then I would have the bitches birth outside and keep them out there until the pups find new homes.

All of my dogs have been born and lived outside and they are super-healthy critters.
 
wow - I can't believe that the breeder is advising a novice to breed two maiden bitches at the same time
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listen to the good advice on here
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- two litters at once is a HUGE amount of work - particularly as they are likely to be large litters and big pups - once they start to be weaned they will poo for England - and run/lie down/smear each other/the surrounding area in it - not to mention weeing everywhere - paddling in their food bowls - howling the place down - and needing to be fed every 2 hours - you could end up with 15-20 pups to care for !. Thats a 24/7 job - and the wear and tear on your house will be significant - (it's really NOT a good idea to have newborn pups shut away in a shed !)

In 23 years of owning and breeding dogs I have never heard of two bitches needing to be mated at the same time for the reasons given by your breeder - you will have to keep the bitch and litters separate in any case as the mothers are very likely to guard their own pups and be aggressive towrads each other ( you cannot keep them all together in one room/shed/whatever - it would simply be a recipe for disaster )

If I were you I would rethink this and mate the better of the two bitches this time ( I am of course assuming that they and the stud dogs have good hip/eye certs ) - having pups IS a wonderful experience but please don't understimate the sheer hard work -and responsibility- that comes with it.
 
Thanks for all the replies

I have been advised not to get my bitches hipscored as they are now nearly 4 and it will be an incorrect reading (ideal time is around 18 months old). They have had a checkup and been told everything is fine but will be having a full medical inc blood etc in the next 2 weeks.
Both stud dogs are proven with excellent hip scores and bloodlines.

The main rason why we want to breed our two is to improve the breed as a whole. Our two have the only pure English bloodline in the UK and mating them with the chosen dogs will introduce the European bloodlines which make the st bernard we all recognise. The English bllodline has turned the breed into a smaller specimen which are quite tucked up at the back and short, smooth hair. The introduction of the new bloodline will (hopefully) get us an ideal example of the breed.
The dogs we are putting them to have a proven show record as well, with their bloodlines including the dog which has won over 44 CC's in his lifespan - the most a St Bernard has ever won.

We have thought this through long and hard - in fact it has taken us nearly 18 months to come to this decision. We were wanting a specific bloodline and now these dogs have become available it is perfect.

I have £4000 in an account specifically for emergencies such as a csection etc as well as puppy food, worming etc.

The bloodlines which this match would make would be a great bloodline - as guarenteed breeding and showdogs as possible. I am aware of the number of rescued animals - i fact we actually rescued our two. I am only advertiseing the pups on the Kennel Club website, the St Bernard club and the breeder. Prospectice purchasers will have to endure a home check and a contract.

Sorry that this reply is so long its just I wanted you to know that we have put a lot of thought into this and I wouldnt just jump in.
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Hi

Thank you for your concern.

However I think i have posted earlier that my partner has breed litters before and he will be taking the first 4 weeks off work to be there for them. I understand that they will need to be seperated and the amount of work that 2 litters will entale (sp)

I would also like to think that advie would be available on the forum in the direction of my decision. i do take your concerns into account but we are mating teh pair of them in the next couple of months
 
"I have been advised not to get my bitches hipscored as they are now nearly 4 and it will be an incorrect reading (ideal time is around 18 months old). "

.......words fail me ! - this is absolute rubbish !!!...dogs can be hip scored at any age after 12 months
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- you really SHOULD do this as well as getting current clear eye certificates for both bitches - you cannot determine the genetic health status of a dog by a vet health check or indeed by simple 'blood tests' - who is giving you this advice ?

The breed is in good hands at the moment - currently winning many groups at Champ show level - take a look at the 'Chandlimor' lines - fantastiic, sound ecxellent examples of the breed - and very far from being" tucked up at the back and short, smooth hair" ( there is and has always been a smooth variety of St Bernard by the way )

Listen I'm not trying to be a spoilsport here ( honest) - just trying to ensure the best possible outcome for both you and your dogs - without the recognised health certificates you will find it very hard to sell these pups - most buyers now ask to see these - and most breed club puppy lists insist on these being done.


I will of course help you if you decide to go ahead - but PLEASE rethink some of your decisions
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I'm going to have to risk being a stick in the mud, but please reconsider the advice given by milor regarding hip scoring. Hip dyplasia is extremely prevalent in St Bernards and therefore every effort should be made to make sure your dogs have good scores before breeding from them. There is no chance of an inaccurate score just because your dogs are 4 years old. So long as the dogs are skeletally mature - over 18 mths of age for a giant breed - there should be no problem and it is SO important to get these checks done. I will check the St Bernard mean scores when I get into work to find you a guide line for the average score for the breed. I think the BMS is actually still quite high.
Personally I would also not have the 2 litters at the same time - mainly because of the sheer hard work involved - I'm not sure 4 weeks holiday may be enough. At this age the pups will be starting to be weaned and tottering about and thats when they'll need more attention. As they get older imagine how much carnage 20 pups could cause! I'm not sure the kennel and run outside is ideal but if thats where mum and pups are going would it be possible to rig it up so mum can get away from her pups at times somehow because as they get older she'll want more and more time away from them?
Anyway sorry if I come across as a real meanie but I would get the hip scores done asap if they due in season fairly soon. Once you have the scores - assuming they are below the BMS I would breed from the better of the 2 this time and leave the other one until her next season otherwise I think you are opening yourself up for all kinds of hard work and trouble.
Sorry.
 
When reading your repy, i was very suprised to hear that you RESCUED both of these bitches
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This is even more reason in my opnion NOT TO BREED, if these dogs where indeed in a rescue situation to begin with then what on earth is the point in breeding from them, I find it even more disturbing that indeed if u aquired them from a RESCUE SOCIETY that these bitches shoud have been NEUTERED!!!!!!!!
Basically you are potentially going to be filling these rescue kennels back up again, You say you are breeding from them because their blood lines are rare .......however this did not stop them becoming rescues in the first place!!!!!!!!
I have 4 rescues recovering from being NEUTERED today including a very expensive Japanese Akita with a fantastic pedigree and Rhodesian Ridgeback, I could make myself a pretty penny if i decided to breed from these bitches and i did not pay a penny for them........just meerly saved them from being P.T.S thru no fault of their own, however my morals tell me that I should not be breeding from these two bitches whom themselves have been saved a death sentence, my aim now is to reduce their numbers not multiply them, I will re-home them in the knowledge that no one else can turn them into money making breeding machines.
I really do hope u listen to the advice from MILOR and ANN-JEN who happens to be a VET as stated in her post, if u are still planning to go ahead with this breeding.
I also agree that these puppies should be brought up in a home environment, so that they can be socialised in a home environment.............If they make a mess/destruction I am sure you will make more than enough £££££££££££ to repair the damage once u have sold them on.
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I also think u need to consider having cotracts drawn up to state that u will take these puppies back if at all the purchases can not keep them for any reason in the future, so that you can be sure they themselves do not end up in a rescue situation.
I have had a number of St Bernard rescues in and they take along time to re-home and cost alot to keep in the meantime, so please be responsible. Regards
 
I'm sorry but I'm with Milor here. I have bred GSDs for 30 years, I have never had two litters at the same time. The nearest was born within 6 weeks of each other and the work was tremendous. And whereas the hip scores might be slightly worse at 4 than 18 months I too find it hard to believe breeders, vets etc. advising you not to score. Please think again about this, maybe just mate one bitch and see how you get on. As you say Saints have large litters and I am sure you will find it hard to find suitable homes for up to 20 pups at the same time. I know some people will think we are being spoil sports but believe me breeding pups is not as easy as some people think.
 
As I have said I know next to nothing about breeding dogs as it is not something I am involved in but have followed this thread with interest. Some of the responses have really made me sit up and think, I sincerely hope they have the same effect on the OP, I hope she reconsiders
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Either way, she is incredibly lucky to have such knowledgeable people like Milor, Ann-Jen and CALA at her disposal.
 
I am actually breeding from the Chandlimore lines with the stud dogs I am using.

Pippanabbey PowerPlay out of CH Chandlimore Hold Your Horses and Pippanabbey Society Girl
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Chandlimore The Challenger out of CH Chandlimore Hold Your Horses and Chandlimore Kaye Maye

both of which are owned by the Lanebern Sud.

My girls are Viking Star Saints and tend to have more Alpennine in them - which is why bringing in the Chandlimore line would fill them out.

We rescued the dogs privately as they were being abused. Eventually we managed to track down their breeders who were happy to hear that the girls were safe and well as they had heard reports that the previous owners had mistreated them.

I have already stated in a previous post that I am intending to get a contract drawn up - this will include breeding restrictions as well as transfering ownership of the dogs back to me if need be. This was all in the contract we got from the breeders as well. I will also be doing home checks on prospective purchasers.

Re the hip scores - I have been advised not to get them done as they are nearly 4 and the score wont be a true score. I could get one done however it wont reflect the actual scores

My partner is taking 4 weeks off then I will be taking time off as my 6 month temp job finishes around that time so there will always be someone with the pups. I do understand how much work etc is going to be involved. The stud breeder is aware that I have 2 bitches and she doesnt think it will be a problem. She had 3 bitches in litter last year at the same time

I posted on here as I was excited re breeding my dogs and wanted some infomation reg the actual birth and care of mum and pups. It wasnt my intention to create a ' you shouldnt breed because.........' post.
I am grateful for any constructive infomation and advice that can be given.
 
I certainly dont want to be a "stick in the mud either" but people do need to look at the BIGGER PICTURE, in regard to unneccesary dog breeding.........I feel there is only one reason to breed on this scale and that is MONEY.
It horrifies me that a novice would even consider breeding on such a large scale, and although advice wil always help it wil no way compensate for experience and simple common sense
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If the bitches decide to reject the puppies for any reason....... feeding and caring for all of them around the clock can be very stressfull tiring, and time consuming.
 
Every post will create a difference of opinion........that is the whole point in the forum, people have to be prepared to read all manor of opinion in regard to their post subject and I do feel that peope gain some very valuable advice...........In regard to the RESCUE status of the dogs......again I totally disagree with breeding from any RESCUE ANIMAL that has already suffered a bad predicament.............the key is to educate and learn!!!!!
I feel the advice Re- the hip scored is rubbish, as MILOR AND ANN-JEN suggested all potential breed specimens should be determined medically sound.......this is for the good of the breed, and the age factor really does not come into it.
 
I'm sorry you don't find our advice constructive - it is intended to help you. As far as the information you have been given regarding hip scoring - I'm sorry but it is definitely incorrect. As milor and CALA have pointed out there is no age restriction on hip scoring and the score will certainly not be incorrect because your dogs are 4 years old. The average score for the St Bernard is 22 which is actually lower than I anticipated. This is an average score of all the St Bernards that have been scored over the past year. 309 dogs were scored in a 12 month period and the worst score was a whopping 73! There is obviously a massive variation in scores and because there is a small gene pool to pick from it makes it even more imperative to only breed from stock with a good score. Your dogs might have brilliant hips but without x-raying there is no way of knowing.
 
Im sorry.

I am open to different opinions and advice however when I feel it is becomming a personal attack and off subject matter then I will say something.
I did not post intending this to be a You should not breed because you haven't got the experiance/time/ room/they are rescued animals I posted to get advice from other breeders.
Like I have said a few times earlier - My OH has breed dogs in the past, we are not completley novice owners.

To be honest I am really annoyed that you seem to indicate that I am doing this for the money - Yes the money is a bonus but that is not why i am doing it. I am doing it because I love the breed and feel it is the right thing to do as it will help improve the breed.

I am not saying that I am not grateful for CONSTRUCTIVE advice however no-one on here is 100% aware of my situation and so should not judge
 
I didnt say I didnt find some advice constructive. I have done.

The dogs are booked in for a FULL medicalin 2 weeks time. I have also been advised to get the (herpes) vacc for them - havnt got details as im at work.

I never said I wasnt going to get them hipscored - I was advised not to as it would produce a false score with them being older.

Out of interest one of the studs has a hip score of 19 and the other a score of 17. They are both proven stud, champs and from excellent bloodlines
 
Thats great - their scores are below the BMS. Maybe speak to your vet about your concerns when they go in for their check up. Hopefully they can put your mind at rest regarding the scoring system.
Good Luck
 
Have just spoken to vet. We have to take them to a larger branch practice as my normal branch dont have an xray machine large enough.

What is the vaccine that im trying think off which we have been reccommended they ahve - herpes/hepatitis?

Also a full medical and health check should include what?
 
Having read all the replies to your original here I can see you have made up your mind and are ready to commit to your breeding programme. Can I just ask how many homes you have currently lined up for your puppies? How many puppies are you prepared to take back?

I only ask as the breeder of my dog (not a Saint) breed 2 litters from 2 bitches within weeks of each other, she had 16 pups. Out of the first litter she already had 3 booked (thankfully nobody cancelled) of the other 5 she only managed to sell 3 leaving 2 pups that stayed with her. With each month they became harder to sell, including dropping prices.

So she had another 8 pups a couple of weeks later, and from that litter none were booked, she sold all but 2 and still had the other 2 so that was an additional 4 dogs to cope with. These were coated breeds requiring a lot of work.

Within a year a further 2 dogs came back to her, as a responsible breeder she was prepared to take all puppies back, still the other four did not sell. It was the worst experience of her life. In addition to this she had to rehome another dog from the first litter.

These pups were breed from champion show dogs, both bitches were champions, pedigrees were fantastic. All health checks were done, but you know why they didn't sell? Specialist breed, not JRT, not labs, not Westies, a large breed epensive to buy. While they were potentially top show dogs, most were destined for pet homes, and those homes just weren't available in the numbers that she needed at the time that she breed...

Good luck, I hope all health checks go well, and they you have at least half your puppies prebooked, if not you may need to build an extension and take an extra job!
 
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