Breeding large breeds

Our x-ray machine is fine - its the actual table that is often not big anough for breeds like this - we often have to join 2 tables together to fit a breed of this size on!
Infectious canine hepatitis is caused by an adenovirus and is contained in the routine booster jab along with parvovirus, distemper virus and parainfluenza virus. Herpes virus can cause respiratory infections a bit like kennel cough but I don't think you can vaccinate against it - it certainly isnt contained in our kennel cough vaccines - they contain parainfluenza virus and bordatella bronchiseptice bacteria. I would get your routine boosters updated now if they are about due as some vaccines aren't licensed for use during pregnancy.
Your vet will most likely do a routine health examination with the vaccination including checking ears/eyes/teeth as well as listening to their hearts/chest and palpating their abdomens.
When they actually come into season they can also be examined to determine an ovulation date - either by a vaginal swab or blood test taken on consecutive days so you know the right day to take them to stud. You don't get a 'ready in x number of days' type result though - its more of a ready or not ready type result so it would need doing every other day until they are ready. There can be a massive variation between dogs as to ovulation date so you might find they don't both ovulate on the same day so if the stud is quite far away you could have alot of travelling to do at short notice! Alternatively if you are on good terms with the breeder they could go to the breeder for the duration of their seasons and they can try them with the stud until they agree to stand for him. Some owners of the stud require that bitches are swabbed and confirmed free of disease just like horses so it might be worth checking whether they need this so you can arrange that well in advance too.
 
LOL
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laughted at the "extention and extra job bit"
This is my point about breeding to many, there has also been a recent post in here somewhere in regards to people not being able to sell puppies!!
People are becoming more aware re-buying from breeders and are looking more into the rescue sector, maybe because of the price of buying a pedigree puppy? I rescue and re-home and my phone never stops in regard to enquiries re-homing a recue..............I carry out a home check, have contracts signed, keep the dog permanantley chipped in my name, NEUTER, VACCINATE AND MICROCHIP, and the small donation goes onto the vet bill to pay for the next..... and so on.
I dont all together disagree with breeding it is done in a sensible manor, and not for the purpose of financial gain, there are people out there who put their heart and sole into showing and breed very far and few to keep their lines and mostly have homes lined up before they even put their bitch in pup, and also spend aot of money making sure they are breeding from a sound specimen.
I do not believe that the thread poster has been attacked in any way, shape or form, and has been given some very CONSTRUCTIVE advice and maybe some she did not want to read but none the less its all CONSTRUCTIVE.
 
No I don't believe she has been attacked in any way either....however she only came on to ask some questions and to tell us of her excitement. She wasn't asking people to judge whether it was right for her to breed or not - that is none of our business and it is pretty pointless in light of the fact that the poster has already decided to breed these pups.

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People are becoming more aware re-buying from breeders and are looking more into the rescue sector, maybe because of the price of buying a pedigree puppy?

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You say this, but I have seen nothing to suggest this. Can you direct me to where you received this information?


To the original poster:

From what I know of the breed, I believe the average litter size is 6 - 8 pups however a first litter may be smaller, therefore you really do need to prepare for a mass-invasion if you are breeding two bitches at the same time!

I for one, certainly do not envy you AT ALL! No way would I do this, however what I would do is not relevant to what you are planning to do, therefore I wish you good luck and hope that you have been helped by the knowledgeable breeder (milor) and vet (Ann-jen) who have given you great advice on here.
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Thanks Tia

I think I did take it very personally that people were telling me not to breed when I did, like you say, come on to ask for advice and share excitement.

HOWEVER I have taken a lot of advice away from this - I am getting my 2 hip scored (whether it makes a difference LOL), I will be keeping them indoors and I am prepared to be beseiged by puppies!!!

Another point I dont think I made earlier was, if my vet thinks of any reason (medically) why either or both shoudlnt be bred then I of course will be getting them spayed.

In response to the poster asking about homes for the puppies - I already have 3 homes lined up - not a lot I know but the stud breeder has a waiting list of people wanting st bernards already.

Someone else advertised on her website and within 3 days the whole litter had gone.

I am also going to be talking to other studs, my bitches breeder may be open to taking a couple of them as well
 
It seems like everyone is trying to spoil your fun but there are some really valid points to consider. I think the most worrying thing is that you are potentially going to have to find good reliable homes for 15 - 20 puppies at the same time! They are a breed that's difficult to find sensible permanent homes for, which is why you found two in rescue. Why not take the advice given on this forum, get them hip scored and breed from one this year and one next year. What's the rush?
 
Hi, tia, in regard to your reply,I did not judge to begin with, I gave good constructive advice.........My opinion is in regard to the person breeding from a RESCUE animal, which I dont agree with, Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I mentioned when u post a thread you have to accept that there will be all manor of opinion on the subject in hand ............that in my opinion is the whole point in a FORUM.
As to my comment re-people people looking more into the rescue sector for dogs is based upon the fact that I carry out alot of work in the rescue sector, and in constant contact with over 20 rescue organisations, and work in one of the biggest Veterinary organisations in this country.
If i am not mistaken......you are based in America so it may be different over there in regard to rescue/private breeders.
A large majority of peope adopting animals from myself and the charities I am in close contact with as well as my place of work are.......as explained by the peope themselves, wanting to offer a rescue dog a home for the more popular reasons of.
*Purchase price of puppies
*Knowledge that if problems occur it is easier to return to a rescue as to a breeder.(not all breeders)
*The fact that most rescue centers NEUTER, CHIP and VACCINATE for usually no more than approx £100 donation, that would cost well over £200 to have done at the Vets thus saving alot of money.
Noticed I placed a question mark after my comment!!!, I state the above because this is the reasons that we are given when people enquire in regard to taking on a rescue pet.
The first thread I posted on when joining this forum was one in regard to puppies being hard to sell!! to which people replied to agree.
I answered to the post above me that also stated that she knew of a breeder that was left with puppies that turned to full grown adult dogs plus ones that where returned that she had managed to sell!!!

what I posted was is no way a certain fact.......like I have expained above just my experiences, of which are vast.

I dont thik I have attacked or offended in any way........just metioned, a few things people clearly dont want to hear, however I have recieved over 10 private posts in regards to peope enquiring re-rescue dogs and in interest in what I have said, so maybe people are starting to look at the bigger picture.
I wish the breeder good luck and hope everything turns out ok
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Maybe puppies are selling like wild fire and I am wrong, in which case this breeder will stand to make a huge amount of money, which is great because that is why alot of breeding is carried out in the first place.
 
I woud also like to point out that I was the one who posted first in regard to, hip scoring, eye testing and additional costs, of which ANN-JEN and MILOR agreed, and persisted to explain and advise, however because I mentioned in regard to breeding from rescues further into the post,it seems now my advice is judgemental and upsetting,
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well its obviously opened a few peoples eyes in regard to the subject.
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Ok as a fellow st Bernard owner who has been offered a couple of 'unwanted' dogs myself I have a few opinions on this.

First of all, I paid £1200 for my dog, yes a lot of money but so many St Bernard breeders breed anything with anything just to get the money, and this has resulted in MANY MANY poor quality dogs polluting the lines.

I bught my boy from one of the best breeders in the country and he has breeding restrictions, and no export pedigree, meaning there is no way I coudl breed from him and register the pups unless his breeder lifted the restriction.

THIS IS HOW IT SHOULD BE WITH THESE DOGS!

There are enough problems in the breed as it is, Ive seen many cute pup that have grown up to be weak adults with an array of health problems, and I would not even consider buying a pup that didnt have a restriction on them.

I contemplated buying a bitch from the breeder I got my boy from, she would have had restrictions but if I wanted to breed, and the breeder thought she was good enough AND approved of the stud dog, then the restriction could be lifted, again this is how it should be.

These are huge dogs with enough strain on their joints and hearts as it is without poor breeding making matters worse!

My boy is 2 and is fit as a fiddle and has excellent conformation, there is no sign of any health problems and every vet comments on what a prime example of the breed he is.

ok regarding litter sizes, ha ha you should be thinking of about 15 !! The stud I got my boy from, the average was 14 pups a litter, and often there were a couple who died. Are you prepared for that?

Also breeding from 2 bitches at once is just madness! And to any potential purchaser, and to me, would scream puppy farm!

2 people cant give possibly 20-30 pups enough attention, and you will know yourself just how big these pups are at 6 weeks, and bearing in mind Saints shouldnt leave until they are about 10 weeks old, well I hope you have a big house!

I do not think it is right to brng that many pups into the world, you will NOT be able to secure EXCELLENT homes for them all, not that many, and then what, they end up ruined like so many St' B's when they are too much for the owners who wanted one after seeing Beethoven?

Even the top breeders in the country find it hard to secure homes for their pups!

Also regarding you stating the pups will need to be returned to you, that doesnt mean they will be! People will give them away or sell them for a few hundred quid to be rid once they realise how much they cost to keep and feed and insure!

My Saint costs me more than my horses!

£40 insurance a month
£80 food

not a cheap dog!

There are so many unwanted dogs in the world, why would you want to bring potentially 30 giant dogs into it, unless they were being bred to show or as part of program to improve the breed, well I think it is madness. It is far too many anyway.
If you want another dog buy another from an established breeder?

These are not small dogs that are easy to home, and they are even harder to rehome if they havent been raised properly.

If you do breed, well only breed from one dog because you cant vet potential owners thoroughly enough while having the burden of that many pups to raise.

Health issues, hip scoring is only the tip of the ice berg!
You want elbow scores and heart checked too, as well as conformation, bad conformation in these breeds isnt just a vanity thing, it can result in them being put down if their bodies are not put together well enough to carry the weight and their hearts and strong enough to take the strain.

Please have a good think about what you are doing, St Bernard pups are not easy and have you thought about the fact if you breed from 2 bitches at once that you may be left with about quite a few dogs that havent found new homes, are you prepared for 6 plus quickly growing boisterous pups in your house?!

Remember how quick they grow, Cujo was bigger than my lab at 15 weeks old, and my lab is a big lab!
 
These are excellent posts by St_Bernard and CALA and hit the nail right on the head. Too many poor quality puppies are bred and sold to unsuspecting novice owners who then have all the heartache of deciding what to do with a giant sized dog with bad hips and is in constant pain. Of course they can ring the breeder and tell them who will then commiserate with them but in the end it is those owners who will have to hold that dog that they love in their arms whilst it is put to sleep.

Have you thought what you might do if, in 18 mths-2 yrs time you begin to get phone calls from owners of your puppies saying that they can't cope, do you have the facilities to take back adult dogs and be able to keep them until new homes can be found? Excellent homes are very thin on the ground especially for giant breeds, try ringing any of the breed rescues that deal with giant breeds, not just saints, any of the giant breeds, and they will tell you how difficult it is to find excellent homes, I keep saying excellent because that is the kind of home every dog deserves, not just a good home - excellent.In my opinion having two litters together is just plain greedy.

I have spent over 20 years being involved with a breed rescue and can tell you this - when someone wants a dog from you (or me) they tell you just what they think you want to hear, it takes experience to sort out the wheat from the chaff. When you have upwards of 20 excellent homes to find for pups that are wrecking your home and creating such hard work for you I think you will be very tempted to sell them to the first ones that come along with the money in their hands. These are the ones that become rescue statistics.

Just another small point, have you thought about getting complaints fom your neighbours/environmental health about the noise and smell from all of these puppies? And how will you dispose of all of the soiled bedding?

Anyone who is advising you to have two litters on the go at one time is giving you wrong advice. Why not just enjoy your dogs for what they are? Have you shown these dogs by the way, have they proved in the show ring that they are good examples of their breed and worth breeding from?

It is wonderful for the owner of the stud dogs, two stud fees and none of the work, no clearing up after 20 pups(otherwise known as s**tmachines), no worrying about finding homes, just someone who is going to slap a wad of money in their hands and then take all of the responsibility. It's great life!

I do think that all of these points and all of the other relevant points made by others here will fall on deaf ears, I think you have made up your mind anyway and nothing will sway you. I do hope you have the wonderful experience that you are expecting but somehow I don't think you will.
 
Cala, I have to agree with you on the point about breeding rescued dogs, the fact that they were rescue dogs is saying something about the difficulties in finding the right homes for these dogs.

Finding homes for all of these puppies, unless Jo has good contacts, may be very difficult indeed.

I was interested in your comments about the sway in more people choosing to buy dogs from rescue centres rather than from breeders. I was more curious about statistics to be honest. Rescue centres have always been around, some people will buy some dogs from there, some people won't; but it is interesting what you are saying that more people are now choosing to buy from rescue centres in preference to breeders? There are loads of rescue centres over here, the same as in the UK. Once again, there are some people who will buy from there and some people who won't.

I very much doubt that these puppies will be in demand and I can see them becoming a nightmare.......however this is something that Jo has to take into account. As a responsible breeder, she is the one who will have to deal with any problems which may turn up and she is the one who will reap the financial benefits (if there are any).

A word of advice though Jo - when I planned to breed my old collie about a decade ago, I was anticipating her having about 8 puppies.......therefore I secured 12 homes for the puppies BEFORE they were conceived. Had I not, then I would never have made the decision to breed her, because there was no way I would have wanted to be left with 8 puppies......and mine wouldn't even have been in the house. As it happens, she never was bred in the end. So what I am saying is, try to secure as many suitable homes before you breed because once they are bred.......you cannot turn the clock back.

I wish you well though with whatever you decide to do.
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I have read all of the posts and there is some excellent advice, I will refrain from saying what I think, as it is clear nothing that anyone says is going to change her mind. It is clear that she has made up her mind to breed them already.

Alas from reading her posts, it would appear that neither meet the breed standard, don't have the required health checks etc.

I also find it bizarre that the stud dog owner will meet "half way" I would never let ANY of my studs be used anywhere other than on my ground. - But then maybe money is the driving factor?

I would be interested to know what the stud fee is?

One point to consider, and this I hope you will think about?
What happens if during whelping, one of the bitches needs urgent vet' treatment? are you going to be able to get her and any pups already born in to and out of the car at the vets? leaving your partner at home with the other bitch? or would you both go?

A very serious thought with large breeds - think about it.

You might just end up with nothing.

Mike
 
Personally I'm very concerned about this thread. Jo1 - i'm not intending this post to 'have a go at you' but if you put a post on a forum like this about such a controversial topic then you are bound to receive some critisism. Its not personal - its out of concern for the welfare of your 2 bitches and any pups that they may produce.

I would strongly advise you against mating your 2 bitches together. Looking after one litter at a time is extremely hard work, time consuming and expensive. By having 2 litters at the same time you won't be able to give each and every puppy the time and effort it requires to give it the best start in life. The first few weeks are extremely important in the development of a puppy's temperament and any lack of adequate stimulation and exposure in this time will affect the pup for the rest of its life.

Personally i would question the advice given to you by your dogs breeder, the stud dog owner and vet about breeding them together...NO reputable breeders or vets that i know would give such careless advice.

I'm not even going to go into the health testing debate as others have covered it well.
 
Just another point about poor quality pups, I know a man who bought a st pup, now when I saw the pup, even as a pup you could see it wasnt good quality, head to narrow, weak backend etc, well his dog is the same age as my Saint, 2, and has had 3k plus spent on operations on his legs, why because he was so poorly conformed that they cant carry his weight and deal with the strain.

The fact your bitches have no endorsements on them proves to me they are not of breeding quality, as resposible breeders pace restrictions to protect the breed and their line.
 
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