breeding query?

Oh FFS.... yes, the puppies may not develop the condition but they could easily become carriers themselves, thus carrying the undersirable gene forward through the generations, ready to pop out unexpectedly - what fun to have a surprise like that. *Bangs head off desk*
 
I was genuinely surprised that 1/3 of the bitches on that list (3/9) have not been hip tested, and only one has elbow tested.
 
*sigh*

Seen it from both sides, I know a long time breeder who gets a very hard time because he is too picky and rarely lets outside people use his dogs and keeps his best ones in Germany.
Another imported a real quality, quality dog, all the whistles and bells, and let him mate anything and everything, every Backyard Bessy.
His argument was that his dog could improve health, character, conformation, colour etc for future generations for people who generally wouldn't have been interested or able to have that sort of dog mated to their pet.
I think part of it was that, yes, and part of it was because of lovely, lovely money :o

Personally, I don't know why you would go to the bother of putting tests and titles on a dog, or spending more money to import a dog with same, then let it mate any old bitch.
 
Well if people practised what the racing people do with their stallions and only allow black type and winning mares it would make life easier. I agree the stud fees are huge but if you breed the best to the best you usually get the best. They might not be winning progeny but carrying top class bloodlines usually ensures a bright future. Its not foolproof but the outcome is usually good and if this is transferred to dogs there will always be a market for them.
 
CaveCanem said:
*sigh*I think part of it was that, yes, and part of it was because of lovely, lovely money :o

Personally, I don't know why you would go to the bother of putting tests and titles on a dog, or spending more money to import a dog with same, then let it mate any old bitch.
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this may be barking up the wrong tree...

...but perhaps there are those who've got a good stud, have titled it and got the hip scores and so on so that they CAN charge more to just anyone - anyone who pays their money and has a bitch who is happy enough to say that their litter is sired by a Champion and therefore pups worth an extra £100?
 
Why would you pay more to breed to a scored male, if you haven't been bothered to pay the money to score your own bitch in the first place?
I do see your point though and realise it happens!
 
like I say, could be barking up the wrong tree! :rolleyes:

Or....maybe he's just keeping the options open by keeping the market wide open - he's available to those that want a quality dog and breed to bitches that are scored/titled and doesn't snub those that haven't - like you say - likes the money too much.
 
or perhaps the unscored bitches are from breeding in which the stud owner is familiar and feels confident about such crossings (not saying it's right, just perhaps that is the mind set?)
 
I think I just thought that anyone with a sensible looking breeding page, without mention of big paws ;) ;) :D would be doing it as well as poss.

eta I was only intending to nose at cute puppy pics!
 
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I would not allow my stud dog to cover any bitch that had not had hips and eyes (as a minimum) and met the required standard. I'm actually quite surprised to see that on their website!
 
It goes the other way too - Ive been asked several times to let people use Yellow Dog as a stud and I always say no as he hasn't been tested. A couple of people have said it doesnt matter as the bitch as been hip checked etc :confused:
 
Low numbers good, high numbers bad.
0:0 is the best poss score and the worst is a total in the early 100s.
I would discount a total venturing into the mid-to-high teens personally.

Elbows 0 is best, 3 is worst, on each elbow.
 
The hip xrays are assessed by the BVA and they look at 9 different criteria - Norberg angle, subluxation, cranial acetabular edge, dorsal acetabular edge, cranial effective acetabular rim, acetabular fossa, caudal acetabular edge, femoral head/neck exostosis and femoral head recountouring.
They score both the left and right side hip joint and grade each point above between 0-6, apart from caudal acetabular edge which is scored between 0-5 (no idea why)! So the maximum score you could get for each side of the hip joint would be 53 or a combined total of 106. 53/53 would be the worst score possible and 0/0 is the best. I *think* for labradors, the Kennel Club state you are allowed no more than 17 combined, not sure if it differs depending on breed?
 
FattyBoomBoom said:
The hip xrays are assessed by the BVA and they look at 9 different criteria - Norberg angle, subluxation, cranial acetabular edge, dorsal acetabular edge, cranial effective acetabular rim, acetabular fossa, caudal acetabular edge, femoral head/neck exostosis and femoral head recountouring.
They score both the left and right side hip joint and grade each point above between 0-6, apart from caudal acetabular edge which is scored between 0-5 (no idea why)! So the maximum score you could get for each side of the hip joint would be 53 or a combined total of 106. 53/53 would be the worst score possible and 0/0 is the best. I *think* for labradors, the Kennel Club state you are allowed no more than 17 combined, not sure if it differs depending on breed?
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I have a score sheet somewhere in the house (with a note saying 'very nice!' from the vet :p) which I must upload sometime if anyone is interested.

Our breed average is a total of 21 or so but would be looking for well, well below that in a stud dog, that gives the impression that 21 is a good score, even 17 is way too high for me. The KC don't actually 'allow' or 'disallow' breeding from animals with high scores, they will register anything, sadly, they only give guidance.
In other European countries the progeny of dogs with high scores or known to throw high scores can actually be banned from shows.
 
CaveCanem said:
The KC don't actually 'allow' or 'disallow' breeding from animals with high scores, they will register anything, sadly, they only give guidance.
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Yes my mistake, you're right there. I'll have to dig out the paperwork but for my little yellow bitch, I'm sure the breeder put some kind of restriction on her with the KC so that I would have to get the necessary health tests done before putting her to my stud dog (obviously I would anyway). So I'm assuming this is to deter unscrupulous breeders as they wouldn't be able to register the pups KC without the relevant testing? If so I think that is a very good idea!
 
There's actually new hip scoring out as wel, the PENN hip score which appears to be taking off and a bit more reliable, but low KC hip scores are good enough, if they are very low. I personally, having had the arthritic blind labrador wouldn't consider anything without good health tests. The fact that the dogs are producing quite so many litters of untested pups is quite distressing when you think of the angst it could cause in later life.
 
There are very few doing Penn Hip in the UK but my vet reckons it might blow the BVA system out of the water.
Only two months for me to find out what my pups' look like :o :o :o I am doing hips and elbows through the German scheme, the amount of haring about and splatting he has done since I got him is not making me very confident :o :o :o
 
CC, as you know I was worried sick about Evies hips as she was so unsound as a baby, and was a total hooligan always running round and jumping off things, yet her hips turned out fine.
Re the stud, the lack of tested bitches is quite surprising to me too, thought most decent stud dog owners were fussy about such things. As you say Fatty Boom Boom, decent breeders also put KC endorsements on pups so their progeny cannot be registered unless health tests are done. The cynic in me thinks this is why some "designer breeds" from 2 KC reg parents happen, as possibly the parents shouldn't be being bred from.

I put the following hip score sheets on here a while ago to try and explain the system, might be of interest. (Not trying to steal your thunder CC, these don't have nice comments on. :() The high score was Buffy's, she was never bred from .

scan.jpg
 
Both sammies and mals have an average of 13, but my old sammy bitch, bought with the hope of breeding, had 53 total EEEKKK!
Needless to say, she was spayed, but lived a good and bouncey life 'til arthritis got her aged 13.
Hope my pups turn out okay as they are always slamming into each other, doors, chairs etc
 
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