Breeding question!!

Ostrich said:
I thought so :) However your reply to that point appeared to suggest that you felt we were recommending health checks to avoid problems with whelping....which, of course, can and do happen in any un-registered, non-health checked bitch whose owner happens to fancy a litter because they are sweet.....
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No my vet is perfectly competant to enlighten me on all of the problems and complications etc!! In your experience im sure you find problems in all breeding dogs not just those you have mentioned above!
 
bubbilygum said:
If you have money put aside to cover any potential vets bills then why do you need insurance?
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not sure i need to justify this tbh!! Either way my dog will be covered for her (if she should need it, and im not expecting her to, but just incase)!! Obviously (right)??? it would be better for her to be covered under insurance!!
 
Ostrich said:
Nope - because I dont breed dogs, never have done and never will do. There are far too many dogs in rescue kennels in the UK to be adding to the canine population in this country :)
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sorry,, my mistake i thought you were an expert or experienced in breeding!!!
 
pinktiger said:
not sure i need to justify this tbh!! Either way my dog will be covered for her (if she should need it, and im not expecting her to, but just incase)!! Obviously (right)??? it would be better for her to be covered under insurance!!
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No, of course you don't need to justify it, but of you are financially sound I wouldn't worry too much about insurance... Obviously you would get your costs back should something go wrong but wouldn't help you in any way other than financially!
 
UnaB would be a good person to contact on advice as she breeds Chi's.

You should be prepared to hit problems just as a precaution, I know UnaB ended up hand raising her last Chi pup, http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=438144 hope she doesn't mind me re-posting the link.

My JRT needed an unexpected c-sec for the last pup in her first litter, unfortunately lost the puppy but thankfully my bitch was ok, she whelped her second and last litter naturall for all 3, with the vet on standby from mating to delivery.
 
bubbilygum said:
No, of course you don't need to justify it, but of you are financially sound I wouldn't worry too much about insurance... Obviously you would get your costs back should something go wrong but wouldn't help you in any way other than financially!
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ofcourse it would help the dog!!!!!!!! why else would you have it!!!!!!!!! i have a reserve and a contignecy in place should i not get the cover i feel happy with through an insurance company!!! It seems im explaining myself over the simplest of things, confuses me slightly!! Or are you trying imply something else?????
 
echodomino said:
UnaB would be a good person to contact on advice as she breeds Chi's.

You should be prepared to hit problems just as a precaution, I know UnaB ended up hand raising her last Chi pup, http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=438144 hope she doesn't mind me re-posting the link.

My JRT needed an unexpected c-sec for the last pup in her first litter, unfortunately lost the puppy but thankfully my bitch was ok, she whelped her second and last litter naturall for all 3, with the vet on standby from mating to delivery.
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sorry to hear about your the last pup, and thanks loads for the link! Did you have paper work on your dog and the stud dog and bitch health checked as is suggested on this tread?????
 
pinktiger said:
sorry to hear about your the last pup, and thanks loads for the link! Did you have paper work on your dog and the stud dog and bitch health checked as is suggested on this tread?????
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Sad as it was it's not uncommon to lose one or two and not necessarily through having a c-sec.

No papers as traditional short legged JRTs aren't KC recognised, both parents are registered on the KC activity register as they compete in agility. They were checked for the basics by the vet and classed as healthy but I've not had Mouse hipscored and it wouldn't be accurate now as she's 7. I've not had either of my JRT bitches hipscored before breeding, I'm more than likely going to get lectured for it, but my HWV bitch has been hipscored and has papers. As much as it sounds hypocritical it is probably best to get proper tests on things the breed is prone to, hipdisplaysia, slipping patella etc. You can actually get the hips xrayed without scoring to give an idea.

She only had 3, I had the two girls but one now lives with my agility instructors in-laws and the stud owner had the dog.

Her first litter was housed with friends of mine but you do have to be prepared for people to pull out once they're here, the litter Mouse was in it happened to me but I was lucky in that I had enough people just in case that happened. You also have to be prepared in case they come back, this is how I got Mouse, she came back at 9months after her owner had a breakdown.
 
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Ahhh thanks loads for that very informative my friend has bred jr and didn't have paperwork as breed not recognised!! If I were to go for paperwork I wouldn't have any of my dogs and would have missed out on so much!!! The best I can do will be to cover all eventualities and double check etc!! Unfortunatly though no matter how prepared and how much paperwork you have things don't go to plan!! That's just plain mother nature!! Will You breed again?
 
Am breeding my HWV when she decides to come into season, she was due in October!! I won't breed any more from Mouse, I had a lot to think about putting her in whelp a second time as she'd had a c-sec the first, but talked it through with the vet and they said as she was fit and had had the first two naturally, that she should be ok and luckily she was. But I made sure the vet was informed all the way through the pregnancy and when she started whelping.

I chose to breed her a second time to a grade 7 (the highest) agility dog in the hope I would get something as good, if not better, for agility. Think it's worked as Dora is fast and springy and has the appropriate screw loose lol. I'm looking to breed Dora when she's old enough, she's not a year yet and I don't breed before 2.

ETA: I don't see a problem in breeding sensibly without papers but they do have an advantage in that you can trace things back along the history of the breed lines, example would be something like hipdysplasia or epilepsy: you can place the dogs you know that produce hd or epilepsy or are related so could be possible carriers, and avoid using those dogs to help reduce the risks. Also helps in that you know if a mating would be too closely related as that can come with it's own problems too.
 
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Ahh seems you really know your stuff!! Love dogs able to do agility!! So clever!! And they love it don't they!! You clearly have a fab vet!! Best of luck with getting your next litter and with the agility!! Let us know how it all goes! That's the great thing about this forum, you get so many different views and experiences!
 
OP - I must admit I am confused by your insurance query :s
Surely if you have the money set by to cover emergency vets bills etc there is no need for insurance? Unless of course you want a pay out if you lose the bitch?
 
pinktiger said:
Ahh seems you really know your stuff!! Love dogs able to do agility!! So clever!! And they love it don't they!! You clearly have a fab vet!! Best of luck with getting your next litter and with the agility!! Let us know how it all goes! That's the great thing about this forum, you get so many different views and experiences!
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I like to think I know a bit, my mum's been breeding dogs for 15years and I helped one of her bitches deliver a puppy when I was 10, but it's a continuous learning curve. There's always going to be conflicting advice and differing opinions, you have to take them all in and make you're decisions based on that. You may not agree with someone but it doesn't make them wrong. :)

Mouse adores agility, she goes bonkers :rolleyes: lol. Dora will be fantastic but at the moment she has the attention span of a gnat!! But she's only 9 months old so can't do a great deal any way.

The good thing about our vet is that she takes on board the way the breed is, how they should be etc as well as the veterinary aspect
 
To all those fixated on my finances!!!

I would rather pay the vets fees with an insurance cover!!! However as some have suggested I may not get adequate cover for all eventualities so,,,,, I will have money set aside to pay any unfortunate vets fees.

Ok to clarify I am not interested in any payout should the unthinkable happen!! The dog is only covered for vets fees!
 
I can't help with insurance options, but with with breeding the £ are so far down the list of priorities that so long as you have cash stashed for emergencies, insurance isn't a biggie.

Cash wise, remember that as a breeder you should be offering a full contract to anybody that takes one of your pups- and it should state that if circumstances change, for any reason, you will take that puppy/dog back, no matter how far down the line it is. That means that several of the pups could come back to you, possibly with problems, and you need to be in a situation to care for them all.

Since your bitch isn't registered, it's unlikely that anybody who has a quality chihauhau will be at all interested in allowing their dog to stud your bitch. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure she's a fab little dog, but the fact is that those with good stud dogs will see her as nothing more than a pet with unknown breeding (one of the main bonuses of having papers is being able to look at a dog's breeding lines and spot potential health problems etc,. and avoid them. The other opposite bonus is that you can pick the best in certain areas to complement your own dogs genetics).

The result of the above means that you will be scraping the barrel of pet-quality studs to mate your bitch. With dog breeding being the money spinner that it is these days, you will have to work through scores of un-tested, unhealthy dogs with no known or documented breeding lines (and therefore no knowledge of what is lurking further up the family tree... ) in the hopes of finding a healthy, quality dog to mate your bitch.

I know you have family and friends that want a pup, but that's a bit like, as a writer, saying your family and friends love your latest article or the first few chapters of your new book. They may want a puppy version of your bitch right now, while the idea is abstract, but will they stick to that once the pups are born? The excuses are likely to come rolling in. :o

Take a look on preloved and similar sites. It seems that every other advert is for a litter of Chihauhaus. Unfortunately they were making a log of money at one point, fashion is changing and they're no longer as desirable. I'm not saying you're breeding for the cash, far from it, but think of the number of chi's that are out there already and needing homes. Will your pups really be that much more special than the other puppies, many in rescue as a result of farming, that need to find a family? :(

A lot of the posters on this thread have a lot of experience in breeding. They're not picking on you, they're just being realistic. It's an unpredictable venture that can go horribly badly when you least expect it. However, if you cannot imagine living without having a litter from you bitch then I of course wish you the very best of luck in finding a good stud, a smooth whelping and securing the best homes possible for all the puppies. :)
 
Pups can get quite expensive too. I have a good friend who breeds Chesapeake Bay Retrievers. Lots of money involved in just one litter of pups and problems can go wrong with the pups as they grow in your care for the first few weeks. One of my friends pups ended up breaking a leg at 7 weeks old. Costed quite a bit to get her up and going again to be a healthy puppy.so not just about something going wrong with your dog, also could be a puppy. Good luck in breeding her! Look forward to what happens! I'm sure they will be adorable pups, and its good you have people interested in them NOW. Before they would come.
 
Op - I find your ignorance astounding. I appreciate that you did not find my initial post helpful. I did not write it with that purpose in mind - that is my prerogative on a free forum. Many posters come to this area of Horse and Hound posing similar queries to you and are not met with a very hospitable greeting. This is because the majority of people who post in this area have first-hand experience of what happens when breeding goes to wrong. The Kennel Club is designed to encourage the protection of welfare of dogs as far as I am aware (please feel free to correct me if I am wrong about this), yet you seem to have a very negative view of it. I admit it is not anywhere near perfect, but if it were not in existence, it is my belief that there would be a far higher number of unhealthy, unwanted dogs and puppies. In your experience you say you have found non KC registered dogs to be healthier than registered dogs. I agree it is perfectly possible to come across unhealthy pedigree dogs but would argue that these dogs are more likely (although not exclusively) to have been bred by back yard breeders and puppy farmers who do breed KC registered dogs. These breeders tend to be breeding for profit, but some breed purely to let their bitch have just one litter/because puppies are so cute etc. Either way it is my opinion that these breeders do not have the best interests of the future of the breed at heart.

To have had all of the advice given by previous posters, from knowledgeable sources such as breeders, vets and rescuers and yet still be so naive and blinkered (as a previous poster so correctly put it) to believe that you are right confuses me.

You are breeding for selfish reasons. I cannot judge whether or not your bitch would be a good mother, in fact very few if any would be able to until she had puppies. You claim you want to breed her and have friends lined up to take her possible pup(s). I would hope that all responsible breeders would do this, so apologies for not applauding you for this, however I cannot understand how you can sleep at night knowing that these perfectly suitable puppies and dogs do not have homes: http://manytearsrescue.webs.com/dogslookingforhomes.htm http://www.dogstrust.org.uk/rehoming/default.aspx
http://www.rspca.org.uk/allaboutanimals/pets/rehoming/petsearch

I realise that not all rescues will not be happy to rehome to some people due to certain circumstances, despite the people being capable of being good owners, however there are many breeders who are breeding to improve the breed who will quite happily sell their puppies to good homes. If despite these options your friends are still unable to acquire a puppy, I would question whether they really would be suitable dog owners. Following on from my point about breeders looking to improve the breed, along with rescues being packed with good dogs, I think unless you are trying to improve the breed and present a better, healthier example of your particular breed, I think your efforts would be rather wasted. From all I have written you may feel I am anti breeding, far from it, I am just anti-irresponsible breeding which is what I feel you are planning on doing.

I hope your dog lives a healthy, happy life. You sound like you care about her very much but I worry that you may not be breeding from her for the best reasons.
 
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We had three Chi's left at my last yard by a breeder who didn't want them anymore. Managed to find homes for them in the end but couldn't sell them for more than £50 each, and these had papers!
 
Lots has been said about the bitch and stud and health checks, finances etc, but have you really thought about what happens after?

I have bred in the past and before the birth was the easy bit. OH and I spent days off work taking care of our bitch in the days around her her due date. We had to assist in whelping on more than one occasion and have given mouth to mouth to pups that weren't breathing. OH kept one pup in a bag strapped to his chest for 5 days when it stopped feeding from the bitch. We fed that pup every two hours, 24 hours a day. When OH had to go back to work I was lucky that my work let me take him to work with me. He slept in a box containing a heat pad under my desk, and was again fed and toileted every two hours. It was exhausting.

We had two pups that the owners wanted to return due to personal circumstances. We drove a 400 mile round trip to pick one up (not quite as far for the second), before sorting out all his 'issues', which took us 3 months before we were happy to rehome him.

We were ignorant. We wanted cute little mini-me's off our girl, and yes, we thought the money would come in handy. However, when we added up the financial cost of puppies there is little, if no money in breeding. We both took time off work, unpaid. I eventually cut my hours to look after the pup I took to work when he became too big and old to sleep in his box all day between feeds. It cost a lot in fuel driving to pick up pups who came back. It cost in vets bills for health checks for the pups, for innoculations, for worming, for general care and feeding, for the toys, equipment, etc, etc, etc, etc.

People on here are talking from experience, and lovely as it would be for you to see your bitch have pups - and I can't deny it is a magical experience - could you really forgive yourself if anything was to happen to your much loved girl if things went wrong? And all the planning and health checks in the world won't prevent the worst happening on occasion.

Please think about it. x
 
"it'll never happen to me...!" :rolleyes:

if i had a pound for every time someone asked about pups from Betty then i would be well in!

she is un-registered and un-papered. we have been lucky that she has no health problems. (we re homed her as an 8 month old) i have made contact with one of her littermates, he has problems with his cruciate ligament.

No owner of a decent stud dog would allow a mating with Betty- even though she has had good comments from many in the ab community. looks and temperament are only a small part of breeding- knowing what is behind the dog is important, and every breeding is a huge gamble.

ets: Betty was spayed last year- i have no wish to breed. ever.
 
I used to get asked all the time if my GSD boy was entire, he was papered but not health tested and I was very naive when it came to breeding.... the throught of some mini-Boss' was just too cute and I even got as far as having a relative's bitch come to the house to be mated. Luckily for me, he didn't take to her at all and they never even sniffed. After that, I did advertise him as a stud but I received an email from a GSD lady who gave me a real dressing down about breeding an unproven, un-tested dog who despite being KC registered had no health testing in the 5 preceding generations.

I was angry and a bit defensive but I took her words on board and researched it some more and realised just how much is involved in dog breeding and how it should be left to the experts. My dog was healthy, the bitch was healthy and it never occured to me that the pups could be anything other than healthy. I was so disappointed (and slightly embarrassed!) but I realised that buying a pup from health tested parents would far improve my chances of having a healthy adult and in your situation, I would recommend you and your friends do the same.
 
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