Breeding - things to consider?

[Michen]

Advice please! I'm looking to have a litter from my 2 year old ESS (she will be two if she comes into season when expected). I'd like to keep one for myself and am chatting to my gundog trainer (s) about suitable sires. I have 2 gundog trainers who'd like a pup from her, 2 of their clients who are waiting for a good one off their recommendation and 3 further working homes with people I know. I have no doubt that I would not need to advertise her litter, she is well liked by many and has got the eye of many keepers from several shoots that she has been on this season who always know whose looking!

I am struggling to find what health tests I need to have done specifically for an ESS, I understand hips/elbows/eyes are standard for any dog?

I work from home mostly so would bank on either being around 24/7 for first few weeks of pups being born, and have multiple options for help/dog sitting if I need to go out or to any meetings over the 8 week period they'd stay with me. Am fully prepared to be sleeping on the floor next to them!

I would never want to be one of those people that breed for the sake of breeding, but this is a well liked working dog that has already proved to be brilliant in the shooting field in her first year, and this is a fully backed plan from two extremely well respected trainers/field trial judges! She has the most amazing biddable and trainable temperament. Literally a dream dog.

I've never done this before so please do point out if I've missed anything obvious, it may not happen anyway if she doesn't pass the health tests.

Cost wise I'm budgeting around £600 for the best stud dog I can find, £600/£700 for health tests and another £500 or so for the pups- worming, feeding, whelp box, KC registration, legal docking etc. £1500 to one side if she needs a C section (she is insured but unsure if this would be covered).

Pics of the girl in question!

 

[CorvusCorax]

This is from the central health website for English Springer Spaniel breed clubs in the UK
https://sites.google.com/site/englishspringerhealth/health-testing-for-ess

 

[Michen]

This is from the central health website for English Springer Spaniel breed clubs in the UK
https://sites.google.com/site/englishspringerhealth/health-testing-for-ess

Ah thank you! One of my trainers just called me as well, he has bred for years but is just getting some info from another local chap to send over including who to go to for imageing etc. He's very excited at the prospect of a having a Pepper puppy as long as he approves of the stud

 

[misst]

I know nothing but love your dog ;-)

 

[Michen]

I know nothing but love your dog ;-)

Ah thanks misst! I hit the jackpot with her. First time dog owner and she is a super high drive, hard hunting bitch but SO well behaved and obedient.

 

[misst]

She is super beautiful and has a lovely expression. I wish you many happy puppies . I also have a 2yo bitch who was spayed after her first season. I almost regret it but OH would not like puppies but like yours she is well bred and super sweet tempered. People have asked if she will be bred. Probably just as well she's spayed.

 

[Clodagh]

Good luck. She is so pretty!

 

[Moobli]

She’s beautiful and sounds a dream! Best of luck with the health tests.
Book of the Bitch by JM Evans & Kay White is a must read.

 

[HappyHollyDays]

I know nothing but love your dog ;-)

Me too. I have my local gamekeeper who breeds most of his working dogs on the look out for a small springer bitch for me in the future. Pepper is exactly what I’m looking for both build and size wise not to mention the working brain without the nuttiness of a working cocker.

 

[Michen]

Me too. I have my local gamekeeper who breeds most of his working dogs on the look out for a small springer bitch for me in the future. Pepper is exactly what I’m looking for both build and size wise not to mention the working brain without the nuttiness of a working cocker.

Well if you want a Pepper pup I'll keep you in the loop. Her mum had 13 pups in first litter! Just ordering her DNA test as first step now

 

[satinbaze]

Hips and elbows will probably cost around £400 and atm the KC/BVA are taking a v long time to review and send results so I would get that done ASAP. Eye tests need to be done by an eye panellist and it depends which tests you need as to cost.
anything breeding related will not be covered by insurance unless you have breeding cover (I think agria are the only insurers offering this) in my last litter I had a pup break a leg this not only cost me £700 in X-rays and vets fees but I had to be very careful regarding a home for her as the leg was uninsurable, fortunately the leg healed perfectly.
always have a slush fund for the unexpected .

 

[Michen]

Hips and elbows will probably cost around £400 and atm the KC/BVA are taking a v long time to review and send results so I would get that done ASAP. Eye tests need to be done by an eye panellist and it depends which tests you need as to cost.
anything breeding related will not be covered by insurance unless you have breeding cover (I think agria are the only insurers offering this) in my last litter I had a pup break a leg this not only cost me £700 in X-rays and vets fees but I had to be very careful regarding a home for her as the leg was uninsurable, fortunately the leg healed perfectly.
always have a slush fund for the unexpected .

Thanks that's helpful. Am reading mixed things about the necessity of hips and elbows for spaniels but would prefer to get them done.

Looks like the Ralph Clinic is nearish to me for the eye test. I have heard the BVA have caught up and now back on a 1-2 week turnaround. Not sure the stars will align on this one as I'm away from next tuesday to mid Jan, I highly doubt I can get everything done before then (when she's due in season, roughly). I'd need to take her for the hips and elbows if I can get a slot before getting the results of DNA/eye test which could end up being a huge waste of money if she fails the latter.

Hmmm.

 

[Boulty]

Unsure of specific health tests for your breed other than eyes, elbows, hips.

Would up your £500 budget for general puppy care things a little to include microchipping (legal requirement) & vet check before they leave you & think about if you'd be prepared to keep any found to have congenital issues / what you would do with them. Would also advise investigating who your local OOH vets are & a rough price for a c section as sods law if it happens it will probably be at about 4 in the morning & thus more expensive (I'd add another grand onto your estimate just in case). Would also advise having a cushion of at least £1k for if any of the little darlings injure themselves, eat idiotic things (a very experienced friend of mine had a puppy ingest a collar & ended up X-raying the whole litter... Didn't show up & the little sod passed it a few weeks later in poo in his new home!) or otherwise become unwell. (Worst case would be all of them having some kind of GI upset as then you'd wind up treating all of them... We get a lot of "breeders" where I work who are not prepared for this scenario & in fact had a box of poorly pups dumped on us a few weeks ago that ended up being taken on by a charity)

Other than that think you're going about it exactly the right way & sounds like you'll have people fighting each other for a puppy which bodes well ?. Have fun having no sleep!

 

[Clodagh]

And do your vets dock? (A random thought).

 

[Michen]

Unsure of specific health tests for your breed other than eyes, elbows, hips.

Would up your £500 budget for general puppy care things a little to include microchipping (legal requirement) & vet check before they leave you & think about if you'd be prepared to keep any found to have congenital issues / what you would do with them. Would also advise investigating who your local OOH vets are & a rough price for a c section as sods law if it happens it will probably be at about 4 in the morning & thus more expensive (I'd add another grand onto your estimate just in case). Would also advise having a cushion of at least £1k for if any of the little darlings injure themselves, eat idiotic things (a very experienced friend of mine had a puppy ingest a collar & ended up X-raying the whole litter... Didn't show up & the little sod passed it a few weeks later in poo in his new home!) or otherwise become unwell. (Worst case would be all of them having some kind of GI upset as then you'd wind up treating all of them... We get a lot of "breeders" where I work who are not prepared for this scenario & in fact had a box of poorly pups dumped on us a few weeks ago that ended up being taken on by a charity)

Other than that think you're going about it exactly the right way & sounds like you'll have people fighting each other for a puppy which bodes well ?. Have fun having no sleep!

That all sounds sensible.

Just spoke with Ben Randall who knows her, he says it's not normal to get elbows and hips done for spaniels and he's obviously a very well known breeder.

So a bit thrown now! I would certainly prefer not to risk her under GA (although seems some places do it under light sedation). Want to do the right thing so will chat with a few breeders and see what the general consensus is.

 

[Michen]

And do your vets dock? (A random thought).

No mine don't but I know some that do

 

[CorvusCorax]

I don't think it's ever a waste of money to know if your dog has good hips and elbows, even if you don't end up breeding. I would never expect mine to do any sustained work without knowing if they are good or not. It's also good information for her breeder, owners of siblings etc.

Anecdotally, there are a lot of spaniels out there with hip and/or elbow issues.
'tHey cAn wOrk sO thEy aRe HealThy' doesn't matter a shit if they pass it on to progeny or are finished by the age of six or seven.

 

[Michen]

I don't think it's ever a waste of money to know if your dog has good hips and elbows, even if you don't end up breeding. I would never expect mine to do any sustained work without knowing if they are good or not. It's also good information for her breeder, owners of siblings etc.

Anecdotally, there are a lot of spaniels out there with hip and/or elbow issues.
'tHey cAn wOrk sO thEy aRe HealThy' doesn't matter a shit if they pass it on to progeny or are finished by the age of six or seven.

Yep that's a good point! Did you find somewhere to do it under sedation rather than GA?

Animals under GA scares me, irrational I know.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I have known of literally hundreds of dogs go through X-raying, under several different schemes and I am not aware that any that had any issues following GA. They do have to be fairly hauled about sometimes to get into the correct position.

A lot of people in my breed used the Australian system when the BVA had a backlog but not sure if that is a thing still.

Other options are OFA and Penn Hip but not sure of their availability where you are, one of my vets does a lot of work on dogs being exported to the USA so does these as well.

 

[Michen]

Thanks I'll look in to it.

Understand, but I have known of several dogs lost under GA for no reason other than GA complications. And I don't know that many dogs!

We all have our own concerns I guess.

 

[druid]

I breed ESS and stand two studs, I'm also a vet

Hips/Elbows, DNA and eyes are gold standard health test wise. Ask to see results - plenty say "health tested" or "fully health tested" in adverts and they've not got anything other than a single PRA dna test done! Hopefully your trainers/advisers will have studs to suggest

On sedation - we use the same drugs in pre-medication as we do for general anaesthesia. One is not inherently safer than the other, Indeed generally GA is considered safer as the dog's airway is protected and they have more monitoring available via ECG/capnography etc

Cost wise. I whelp difficult bitches for clients - I've a bitch here currently, singleton pup. Stud fee - 450, scans x 2 160, xray to confirm singleton 100, herpes vaccines 75, c-section 650 (cheaper as scheduled and discount for my clients), whelp/care fee 800 to 8wks, vaccines/chip/docking 45, feed/wormer/calcium supplementation 200+. Dog courier 350 x 2 for bitch. One VERY expensive puppy when it comes down to it.... Obviously she is a worst case scenario

(add in stuff like whelping box, heat pads, enough vetbed to change the bedding at least twice daily initally, bottle feeding sets, feeding tubes, puppy milk replacer etc which I have on hand anyway!)

And the one thing people don't think about. Are you prepared to lose the bitch, because it can and does happen. Do you have the time/resources to tube or bottle feed 9-10 puppies every 2 hours?

I love breeding but you've got to go in with your eyes open!

 

[druid]

Just spoke with Ben Randall who knows her, he says it's not normal to get elbows and hips done for spaniels and he's obviously a very well known breeder.

I respect Ben a lot (love the App) but he's talking out his arse. It should be normal because we are seeing more and more issues (especially IOHC) in Springers. There's litters out there where 5 of 7 siblings have screws in their elbows and not from small time breeders but it's very much swept under the rug. Quite like the levels of cull/fall by the wayside in WB production on the continent - no one wants to talk about it. Lots of gundog people are head in the sand and refusing to test, Labradors were the same way but they're come on leaps and bounds....hopefully Springers follow suit. Cockers are ahead of them due to a widely used stud dog carrying a gene mutation which when 2 copies are carried causes the pup to literally eat it's own feet and limbs....it was a rude awakening for the breed for many.

For reference I have dogs here with Beggarbush lines so am not anti Ben at all!

 

[Michen]

Thanks that’s rea

I breed ESS and stand two studs, I'm also a vet

Hips/Elbows, DNA and eyes are gold standard health test wise. Ask to see results - plenty say "health tested" or "fully health tested" in adverts and they've not got anything other than a single PRA dna test done! Hopefully your trainers/advisers will have studs to suggest

On sedation - we use the same drugs in pre-medication as we do for general anaesthesia. One is not inherently safer than the other, Indeed generally GA is considered safer as the dog's airway is protected and they have more monitoring available via ECG/capnography etc

Cost wise. I whelp difficult bitches for clients - I've a bitch here currently, singleton pup. Stud fee - 450, scans x 2 160, xray to confirm singleton 100, herpes vaccines 75, c-section 650 (cheaper as scheduled and discount for my clients), whelp/care fee 800 to 8wks, vaccines/chip/docking 45, feed/wormer/calcium supplementation 200+. Dog courier 350 x 2 for bitch. One VERY expensive puppy when it comes down to it.... Obviously she is a worst case scenario

(add in stuff like whelping box, heat pads, enough vetbed to change the bedding at least twice daily initally, bottle feeding sets, feeding tubes, puppy milk replacer etc which I have on hand anyway!)

And the one thing people don't think about. Are you prepared to lose the bitch, because it can and does happen. Do you have the time/resources to tube or bottle feed 9-10 puppies every 2 hours?

I love breeding but you've got to go in with your eyes open!

Thanks that’s really helpful!

Lots to consider, not really worried about costs as it’s not about the money.

The risk to the bitch in every way is my biggest concern. Tricky one to balance. I have a good friend who breeds labs and she’s nearly lost two of hers.

 

[Michen]

I respect Ben a lot (love the App) but he's talking out his arse. It should be normal because we are seeing more and more issues (especially IOHC) in Springers. There's litters out there where 5 of 7 siblings have screws in their elbows and not from small time breeders but it's very much swept under the rug. Quite like the levels of cull/fall by the wayside in WB production on the continent - no one wants to talk about it. Lots of gundog people are head in the sand and refusing to test, Labradors were the same way but they're come on leaps and bounds....hopefully Springers follow suit. Cockers are ahead of them due to a widely used stud dog carrying a gene mutation which when 2 copies are carried causes the pup to literally eat it's own feet and limbs....it was a rude awakening for the breed for many.

For reference I have dogs here with Beggarbush lines so am not anti Ben at all!

I don’t think he’s talking out of his arse in that it’s not common place from the first glimpse I’ve seen of what’s available. Have been sent about 6 well recommended stud dogs to look at and all are DNA tested and eye tested but no more. Argh! So doesn’t seem to be nearly as common as with labs even if it should be.

Looks like my stud dog choice will end up being very narrow at this rate ?

I have contacted South canine imaging who seem really well recommended.

 

[Moobli]

Thanks that’s rea


Thanks that’s really helpful!

Lots to consider, not really worried about costs as it’s not about the money.

The risk to the bitch in every way is my biggest concern. Tricky one to balance. I have a good friend who breeds labs and she’s nearly lost two of hers.

That is the main reason I have 99.9% decided not to breed my bitch. I could not bear to lose her for the sake of a litter.
Good luck whatever you decide to do. Some great advice from very experienced people on here already and you certainly sound to be going about it all the right way.

 

[Michen]

That is the main reason I have 99.9% decided not to breed my bitch. I could not bear to lose her for the sake of a litter.
Good luck whatever you decide to do. Some great advice from very experienced people on here already and you certainly sound to be going about it all the right way.

She just vomited a pile of tripe on my Neptune rug, am feeling slightly different now ?

Just kidding of course, but oh my the SMELL

 

[Moobli]

She just vomited a pile of tripe on my Neptune rug, am feeling slightly different now ?

Just kidding of course, but oh my the SMELL

???

 

[Michen]

Also one thing to ask did you find your bitches temperament changed having had a litter- those who have bred?

I have heard it can but not sure if that’s hearsay. I’d hate for her character to be altered in any way.

 

[SusieT]

Elbows a definite- Spaniels are prone to a conditon where the elbow has an invisibel fracture line + elbow dysplasia. Hips, less common .

 

[CorvusCorax]

I've known bitches who I've considered a bit weak, really come out of themselves after a litter. Anecdotal and probably sounds old fashioned, but sometimes motherhood can bring out a bit of assertiveness.