Breeding thoughts

[Clodagh]

A friend took her very nervous spaniel to be covered (I hope you call it that for dogs!) a couple of weeks ago and the poor thing was terrified. She was terrified of the stud dog, of his owner, of being in a strange place. She was too scared to stand but they did manage eventually to achieve some sort of tie.
Anyway she was scanned as empty on Friday.

A couple of things. I assume the too scared to stand doesn't aid a successful mating!
It also made me think about Ffee who I may possibly breed from one day, she certainly would not cope with being manhandled by anyone into position and I think I would have to give up if she refused to stand. I know I am worrying about something that may never happen, but is it common? Is there anything you can do to make them more relaxed?

 

[CorvusCorax]

I wouldn't breed a female that had nerves that poor. Nature is trying to tell us something IMO.
If they're ready, and want to be mated, they'll stand. I can cope with a bit of aggression in a mating, but not nervousness.
No forced mating I've ever witnessed has ever either produced pups at all, or produced quality pups.

 

[Dobiegirl]

I certainly wouldnt be breeding from any dog that was nervous which could be passed on to the offspring.

When I bought a puppy back in the 80s the breeder told me she would never breed from a bitch that wouldnt accept a male, she said it amounted to rape and she had done it in the past much to her regret and the bitch had either lost her puppies or they had problems, she was of the opinion n ature knew best.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Doesn’t Ffee have a tricky (nervous) temperament, who can be reactive when meeting other dogs out on walks? Or have I got that all wrong?

 

[Clodagh]

Doesn’t Ffee have a tricky (nervous) temperament, who can be reactive when meeting other dogs out on walks? Or have I got that all wrong?

No that's not Ffee, that's Pen. Ffee is perfect socially, but doesn't like being handled by strangers, shes fine if they ignore her. (I like my dogs like that, can't be doing with the meet 'em and greet 'em stuff).

 

[Clodagh]

I agree with the 'rape' thing. I hate mares being hobbled and twitched! Ffee is fine with strange dogs and strange places but wouldn't want anyone hauling her into an upright position and tbh I wouldn't want to do it either. That has cleared it up for me anyway.
Can you 'tease' bitches like horses? I assumed I would have a blood test done anyway, to be sure, I don't have a handy dog to tell me anything.

 

[twiggy2]

Some bitches won't stand for some dogs, I ntd my last litter to be by a certain dog, the bitch had other ideas it would stand for his son (no-one else) and that was a happy mating for us so this want happened. Next season we did not want a litter and she would have stood for anyone!
If a bitch won't stand for any reason I would let her have that choice, I certainly would not breed from a nervy bitch, or dog for that matter.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Most people use the blood tests these days.
Just put a line round her to keep her upright?
How does she manage at the vets?

 

[satinbaze]

If the bitch was scanned only 2 weeks post mating then nothing will be seen. Most scans for dogs are between 4-5 weeks post mating.
As for the actual mating I would never force a bitch to accept the male. Mine have always stood willingly and if anything swimming her bum towards the dog. Progesterone testing indicates the optimum time for mating when the bitch is most receptive.

 

[Christmascinnamoncookie]

Why did the owner want to breed from a nervy dog?

 

[CorvusCorax]

If she's that stressy, and especially if she lives in a multi-dog household, she may not take or could absorb them, it's a self-preservation thing.

 

[Thistle]

Not really sure why you'd breed from a bitch that can'y cope. If she had takes it would be yet another batch of poorly socialised nervous spaniels for the rescues to pick up.

Ffee certainly was happy enough to meet Toast, she played and walked with him, he is quite gentle and not too in your face for an entire male though.

 

[Clodagh]

Most people use the blood tests these days.
Just put a line round her to keep her upright?
How does she manage at the vets?

If this is Ffee you mean (rather than the spaniel) I would hope she would just stand. Its 2 years away if ever so not an immediate problerm, but the spaniel made me think about it. I would go blood test for sure, but I wasn't sure if 'teasing' helped them relax.
She trembles at the vets, but is calm.

 

[Clodagh]

If the bitch was scanned only 2 weeks post mating then nothing will be seen. Most scans for dogs are between 4-5 weeks post mating.
As for the actual mating I would never force a bitch to accept the male. Mine have always stood willingly and if anything swimming her bum towards the dog. Progesterone testing indicates the optimum time for mating when the bitch is most receptive.

Well it probably was 4 weeks, I wasn't being specific
With entire bitches in the past they have always whipped their tail to the side and stood when you press their back. (It is unusual for me to have a dog nearby) Ffee didn't do that last season, but she has only had 2 so is still a baby.

 

[Clodagh]

Why did the owner want to breed from a nervy dog?

£££££

 

[Christmascinnamoncookie]

£££££

That’s depressing. ?

 

[Clodagh]

If she's that stressy, and especially if she lives in a multi-dog household, she may not take or could absorb them, it's a self-preservation thing.

Mmm...she is nervous, poorly socailised and lives at a doggy day care where multiple strange dogs are in a run together, disagreements are common, not what I would expect a pregnant bitch to want to deal with. (the spanner)

 

[Clodagh]

Not really sure why you'd breed from a bitch that can'y cope. If she had takes it would be yet another batch of poorly socialised nervous spaniels for the rescues to pick up.

Ffee certainly was happy enough to meet Toast, she played and walked with him, he is quite gentle and not too in your face for an entire male though.

Ah now you have already rescued the last pup this person bred.
I don't want to make Ffee out to be neurotic, she isn't as you know, having met her, but she is not forthcoming with strangers and I just hoped that wrestling for mating was not the norm. Seems it isn't, and of course if I wasn't happy I could take her home.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Mmm...she is nervous, poorly socailised and lives at a doggy day care where multiple strange dogs are in a run together, disagreements are common, not what I would expect a pregnant bitch to want to deal with. (the spanner)

Will probably never happen then. They generally don't bring litters into a chaotic world with lots of 'threats'. I know people who have multiple females and multiple misses, because of the way they are kept.
And so many people are too tight to pay for testing and so go too early/late. End rant lol.

 

[Aru]

Sounds like that dog wasn't actually ready to be bred hormonally nerves aside and they should have never forced the issue. Poor dog.

My girl refused to stand long and provide any help drop hip etc day one we met her stud despite flagging tail etc.she tolerated him because shes a easygoing dog...just had no intention of helping him. We let them get acclimitised and then I took her back home unbred. I knew from her progesterone testing she was at optimum that weekend...so we delayed a day and came back 24 hours later and had a solid tie 5 minutes after a walk together on neutral ground.

Temperament is hereditary.
A dog that fearful should not be bred but those owners also sound....like they are making a lot of bad choices.

In answer to your question Progesterone testing will tell you when ovulation and optimum breeding times are for dogs. You might need to hold you girls collar if she's inclined to move when the ties happened to stop the boy getting dragged around by his penis...but a natural ties should not have to be forced.
Dogs are good at breeding. If you have to intervene to a massive degree then the chances of success are low.
Ai is also an option but a natural tie has a higher success rate for a reason.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Last few matings I've been present at, and I'm dealing with medium-large breed, bitch owner sits in chair at head/collar end, dog owner and A.N Other are at business end to make sure everything is where it should be then help male over to the side or to turn without either getting hurt by sudden movements.
Three helpers are definitely better than two.
Have seen lines looped around both to stop either from going anywhere suddenly and let everyone/everything relax before they are separated.
Various platforms or natural inclines deployed if need be. It shouldn't be overly stressful if one or both have done it before.

As is the modern way, post pic of tie to social media for proof ?

 

[Clodagh]

Last few matings I've been present at, and I'm dealing with medium-large breed, bitch owner sits in chair at head/collar end, dog owner and A.N Other are at business end to make sure everything is where it should be then help male over to the side or to turn without either getting hurt by sudden movements.
Three helpers are definitely better than two.
Have seen lines looped around both to stop either from going anywhere suddenly and let everyone/everything relax before they are separated.
Various platforms or natural inclines deployed if need be. It shouldn't be overly stressful if one or both have done it before.

As is the modern way, post pic of tie to social media for proof ?

That sounds calm and sensible. The only mating I have been present at was when my bull terrier bitch got caught by a dingo ?. 45 minute tie ?. Calm it wasn’t!

 

[twiggy2]

To my mind a compatible pair of dogs should be able to complete the get on, get off bit all by themselves, no holding, directing or lines. It's a natural event after all. It either happens or it doesn't, if it doesn't then so be it.
The dogs here seem to pull harder than the bitches when tied, if they are moving about a lot I can see a benefit to sliding a lead on them to keep them more stationary.

 

[P3LH]

Years ago, probably about twenty, one of our russell bitch’s, despite every attempt, just would not be mated.

She was the biggest flirt and nightmare whenever in season, escaping from the kennel run and flirting with the other dogs and our neighbours terriers. She was one who after a certain day would walk around with her tail to one side more or less constantly, and not even the cats were beyond her seduction however whenever it came to it—she would NEVER stand for a stud. No matter what was tried, different days, going away and coming back again, holding her collar to try and reassure her—nothing. She would go hell bent for leather and try and kill an array of experienced terrier suitors that were lined up for her over the years.

In the end we accepted nature didn’t want this one to reproduce (probably for the best) and the idea died a death. Ironically the only dog she ever allowed near her was a very elderly Pekingese who only had one testicle, thankfully nothing ever came of that!!!!!!

Its not the first nor last I heard of similar. Some bitches just weren’t cut out to be bred from

 

[CorvusCorax]

To my mind a compatible pair of dogs should be able to complete the get on, get off bit all by themselves, no holding, directing or lines. It's a natural event after all. It either happens or it doesn't, if it doesn't then so be it.
The dogs here seem to pull harder than the bitches when tied, if they are moving about a lot I can see a benefit to sliding a lead on them to keep them more stationary.

Each to their own, just prevents either getting hurt/attaching a bad association to the event, IMO.

 

[Clodagh]

Each to their own, just prevents either getting hurt/attaching a bad association to the event, IMO.

I think doing it themselves would be nice but remembering the screaming, fighting and panic in the one mating I witnessed (the dingo wasn't completely wild, sort of semi feral) I imagine their genitals were pretty sore afterwards. I don't know that you would want to risk a stud dog hurt in that way.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Someone I know with a competition dog they had pretty high hopes for twisted himself on his first mating last year and he hasn't been physically right since. For the sake of litter of one....

 

[P3LH]

Sadly I know of someone who had heartbreak with a young male, who was long awaited, an import of a very numerically small breed and a real corker who produced well in three litters he produced. The owner of the bitch in this specific mating insisted it was ‘natural’ despite the stud owners attempted negotiations. During tie something terrible happened as the stud went to move and the bitch reacted, of the mechanics is something I don’t quite understand. The stud was left with temporary damage to muscles in his spine and permanent damage to his scrotum. An operation righted him for general life, but he couldn’t be bred from again. They were left devastated after waiting several years for the mating that produced him. The bitch belonged to a stalwart in the breed, hence why the stud owner went a bit more with the flow. I personally would have stamped my feet.

Whilst I’m not a fan of forced matings at all, I do think there has to be some level of management if the situation warrants. Especially with a maiden bitch.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Honestly, if I could show you the last one I was at, where the male just zonked out and rested his head on/started drooling profusely on the bitch owner's knee ?
Careful doesn't mean forced.

 

[Clodagh]

A friend has a stallion who has a little doze on top of the mare after ejaculation. She says she’s just glad he doesn’t ask for a cigar.