Brendan Wise vs Leslie Desmond

[Ample Prosecco]

A couple of weeks ago, Brendan Wise posted an amazing video of himself riding a 1.30cm SJ track brideless at a major competition. I had never heard of him before but I was mesmerised and followed/shared. It went viral. It looked to me to be beautiful. Here is a COTH article about them,

Brendan Wise Wants To Show What’s Possible Without A Bridle - The Chronicle of the Horse

www.chronofhorse.com

Then a few days later Leslie Desmond - a horsemanship trainer in the Ray Hunt lineage - posted a lengthy, utterly scathing post about that round, saying she seen him training the horse in question over the winter in Ocala and the training methods would 'make people want to throw up'. She never actually names what he did and, when repeatedly challenged to explain herself, she deleted the post - but not till there were 100s of comments about Brendan being a fraud and conman.

I then went to camp/Easter etc so I'm late to bring this up but does anyone know what's going on? How can you train brideless harshly? What even do you do to make it harsh? (Not bitless - I am well aware bitless bridles can be very harsh). I am feeling very deflated as I thought it was magical and npw think NO performance from ANYONE can be trusted. But I also I think people setting others up for a pile on should evidence their claims. Anyone know anything about this?

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Is it possible that she meant he trained horribly in tack at a previous show, rather than horribly tackless?

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Maybe - she did not explain what she meant - but if you bit a horse up to the eyeballs and haul on it, how do you then teach it go bridleless anyway? Seems very counter-intuitive.

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

It looked a lovely round, I'd far rather watch that than harsh bits and yanking and spurring

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Maybe - she did not explain what she meant - but if you bit a horse up to the eyeballs and haul on it, how do you then teach it go bridleless anyway? Seems very counter-intuitive.

I hate to even use this phrase, but you bully/beat the fight out of the horse. Tacked or tackless, it still has to be off the aids, you get the horse to be submissive, teach it to neck rein and bobs your uncle.
Much like the in-hand dancing stallions you sometimes see, the slack on the reins does little to hide the tension in the face...

Or it could be someone with a grudge spouting a load of rubbish, or someone who has made some mistakes along the way but has changed his training methods - which is what I would be more hopeful is the case.

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

Also, if she doesn't like this I wonder if she's been to pro yards, it would be interesting to see what goes on there...

 

[cauda equina]

The horse looks thoroughly relaxed and willing; if BW is a fraud and a conman he must have duped the horse too

 

[paddy555]

who knows.Below is his FB page. Obviously he is not going to show his nasty moments cruelly treating the horses. Lots to watch on several horses. Video on 29/12/19 of 3 days training of the same new horse. A case of making your own mind up.

the 2nd video on the chrono of horse you quoted shows the horse stopping at a fence in the ring. They just circled and did it again. Horse didn't seem worried at the prospect of what was going to happen to him for failing.

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[little_critter]

Horse looks happy and relaxed to me. Focussed on the job in hand but not stressed.
He has a lovely still lower leg too.

 

[ycbm]

I don't understand how he could bully the horse to perform like that. Looks lovely to me. I agree that the reaction to having got it wrong in the 1.30 says clearly this horse is not expecting a beating.
.

 

[ycbm]

who knows.Below is his FB page. Obviously he is not going to show his nasty moments cruelly treating the horses. Lots to watch on several horses. Video on 29/12/19 of 3 days training of the same new horse. A case of making your own mind up.

the 2nd video on the chrono of horse you quoted shows the horse stopping at a fence in the ring. They just circled and did it again. Horse didn't seem worried at the prospect of what was going to happen to him for failing.

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To save people paging down, this is the post Paddy is talking about.

https://www.facebook.com/BrendanWiseHorsemanship/posts/2836023439752943

 

[Goldenstar]

That is a beautiful mare .

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

To save people paging down, this is the post Paddy is talking about.

https://www.facebook.com/BrendanWiseHorsemanship/posts/2836023439752943

I'm very happy to be critical on a lot of these pro posts but nothing in that video appalled me at all (I presume that's some sort of hackamore rather than massive curb/shank?!)

Lovely soft sympathetic riding, no winching the head in as is common in SJ, gorgeous horse calmly and softly ridden

I'm guessing this woman has a personal bug bear with him. I was expecting to see booting/sawing/whipping/winching the head in.

Trouble is there's so many questionable (to be polite) practices out there, it feels at the point where you have to wonder if there's a dark side behind everything

I really liked the bridle less video and would far rather watch that than massive bits, strong hands etc

Watching Hickstead on TV I've seen some that are clearly trained with fright as they wheel away from the jump clearly anticipating what's coming. I seem to recall a certain video from Olympia appearing a few years back on this forum... I've seen a couple of rounds at Hickstead where it's taken the crowd gasping to make someone stop "reprimanding" the horse - again makes you wonder what goes on at home

 

[paddy555]

To save people paging down, this is the post Paddy is talking about.

https://www.facebook.com/BrendanWiseHorsemanship/posts/2836023439752943

thanks, I'm not good at FB links on here.

 

[little_critter]

Thanks YCBM. A lot to like there, lots of sitting quiet and letting the horse discover that there is nothing to object to.

 

[j1ffy]

Maybe - she did not explain what she meant - but if you bit a horse up to the eyeballs and haul on it, how do you then teach it go bridleless anyway? Seems very counter-intuitive.

I can't speak for this situation, but I did once see exactly that happening at a Longines GCT show in Hong Kong. The warm-up was in the shopping area and I watched as the half-time show warmed-up on a beautiful liver chestnut PRE (I can't remember her name, she was in a flowing dress that complemented her flowing locks - possibly French? Had definitely flown in from Europe). The PRE had a huge curb in, sweet iron I'd imagine, which she absolutely hauled on every time he went slightly against the contact. It was very ugly to watch and an awful comparison to the SJers, who aren't exactly renowned for classical and soft riding but all looked highly accomplished, relaxed and kind.

She was billed as a classical rider and did her show on a light contact, then took off the bridle and did the usual piaffe / passage / tempis that those sorts of shows prefer. It all looked beautifully harmonious and light, but having seen her in the warm-up it left an unpleasant taste in my mouth.

 

[YourValentine]

I think it would be quite easy to teach some horses to go bridleless. The Trust to actually do it in a competition environment might take longer...
If you ride well from your seat and have a light hands, then quietly add a neck rope and gradually use it more and the reins less, then transition to a headcollar with reins off it, to no reins, then no headcollar just the neck rope. You've taught your horse what you want and to listen to your seat far more through the transition to bridle-less so it becomes simple/natural for them and you.

The article says he jumped up to 1.40m with a bridle and then worked on going bridle-less. By that point Lyric would 'know' his job and its just been a change in way of going / how the aids given and so far at heights that are within his comfort zone.

I'd like to see him ride a jump off round to see how precise the aids can be.

It doesn't have to be nasty, and I really hope that it wasn't/isn't and the other lady just had a grudge. But its sad that we question everything these days.

 

[ihatework]

Just taking it on face value it's lovely to watch and pretty damn cool.
The horse looks happy and relaxed, enjoying the job and when the mistake happened in the 1.30m there wasn't any sign of panic.
That way of going IME wouldn't happen if there was serious stuff happening behind the scenes.

That said there are plenty of good riders that can pull off a very good act in public and are shady at best at home. I have know knowledge of this rider though.

If someone wants to spout off serious concerns on the internet then they should damn well have material to back it up.

 

[Fluffypiglet]

Just taking it on face value it's lovely to watch and pretty damn cool.
The horse looks happy and relaxed, enjoying the job and when the mistake happened in the 1.30m there wasn't any sign of panic.
That way of going IME wouldn't happen if there was serious stuff happening behind the scenes.

That said there are plenty of good riders that can pull off a very good act in public and are shady at best at home. I have know knowledge of this rider though.

If someone wants to spout off serious concerns on the internet then they should damn well have material to back it up.

I agree- The lack of fear/ panic would strongly suggest that there are unlikely to be horrible things behind the scenes. Last year at Hickstead one of the horses in the main ring looked terrified when he failed to jump. Heartbreaking to see. No bad reaction from the rider at the time but clear that horse knew he’d done something wrong and had previously been punished badly.

 

[Wishfilly]

I agree that if someone makes allegations they should be prepared to back them up with at least some level of detail, or, ideally, proof?

I was imagining something like rapping (possibly) which would upset lots of people but would potentially not preclude bitless riding.

I do think it's unfair to post really vague accusations online, and I agree that the videos shared look like a horse that is genuinely relaxed.

I am intrigued/confused(?) by the choice to ride bridless but with a crop.

 

[Annagain]

I don't know anything about the rider other than seeing the video of the round. I get that what happens behind closed doors can be very different from what we see in public but I don't really understand why someone who clearly values the horse's comfort and confidence would want to use harsh training methods behind closed doors.

SJ isn't normally a world where bridleless riding would be valued so I don't really understand why he'd want to do that other than for the benefit of the horse. Ego, I suppose, would be the main reason and I don't think any of us are in a position to say whether that would be a factor in this case.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Thanks for lots of interesting comments. I shall choose to believe that LD was spouting egotistical BS and carry on enjoying the beauty of these rounds! As IHW says, if you are going to lambast someone on SM then you need evidence. Or at the very least you need to make specifiic allegations, not just say the training was appalling, but give zero indication of why or how,

 

[Alibear]

I know a few trainers who can and do demo bridleless, but they all admit turning a bridled (I include bosals here) horse into bridleless is one thing.
But training a horse bridleless from first backing is something wholly different and very rarely if ever, done.

 

[Fieldlife]

Thanks for lots of interesting comments. I shall choose to believe that LD was spouting egotistical BS and carry on enjoying the beauty of these rounds! As IHW says, if you are going to lambast someone on SM then you need evidence. Or at the very least you need to make specifiic allegations, not just say the training was appalling, but give zero indication of why or how,

Dont really know much of the background. But I thought LD was a decent solid trustworthy professional in their own right, and "one of the good guys"? Is all very strange.