vieshot
Well-Known Member
Is this possible? I was reading on internet that its a coat defect that occasionally shows from two solid parents. Im not convinced! Anybody know for sure?
Brindle and black and tan labs
- Thread starter vieshot
- Start date
lexiedhb
Well-Known Member
They have probably crossed it with a blumming staffy/Dobe/Rottie
Google Silver Labs too- yeah right there is no Weimerarner in there!
Google Silver Labs too- yeah right there is no Weimerarner in there!
CorvusCorax
'Do you come here often?'
There are colour flukes that pop up now and then in my own breed and they used to be seen as very striking and unusual, but undesirable.
Now people make a killing from deliberately breeding them and focusing on Kool Kolors instead of character and health (which can be compromised as the gene pool is so small
)
There are some people dedicated to recreating the brindle GSD but TBH I think they should just leave them alone and buy a Belgian or Dutch instead!!!
Then there are the Panda shepherds which people say are naturally occuring but I do not believe there is no collie in there!!!
Now people make a killing from deliberately breeding them and focusing on Kool Kolors instead of character and health (which can be compromised as the gene pool is so small
)There are some people dedicated to recreating the brindle GSD but TBH I think they should just leave them alone and buy a Belgian or Dutch instead!!!
Then there are the Panda shepherds which people say are naturally occuring but I do not believe there is no collie in there!!!
ester
Not slacking multitasking
I found this one, http://labradornet.com/brindle.html
GinaB
Well-Known Member
NO, NO, NO! I would be mortified if I bred one
Yellow, black and chocolate should be the only ones recognised.
And don't even get me started on people who call yellow labs golden Lol
Yellow, black and chocolate should be the only ones recognised.
And don't even get me started on people who call yellow labs golden
Lol DiggerandWill
Well-Known Member
There was a black and tan lab in the gamekeepers ring at Crufts - not sure if it was last year or the year before. Quite attractive but 'wrong'!
MurphysMinder
Well-Known Member
Gina what is your view on fox red labs. I have seen a few of these and rather liked them, all have been working lines. Is it actually seen as a fault by labrador purists, like blue and liver GSDs.
Slinkyunicorn
Well-Known Member
Our old Lab was a fox red - she was from working stock
Izzywizz
Well-Known Member
Mine is very dark fox red, came as a complete surprise. Bitch is black, dog is dark yellow/light fox red. 12 in the litter 10 black, my fox red and a light yellow. I haven't seen any as dark as she is, both parents are very well bred working dogs.
Izzywizz
Well-Known Member
Pic of my fox red in album on my profile if any one wants to look.
Alec Swan
Well-Known Member
I accept that I'm not, but were I in a position to outlaw the breeding of any dog, SOLELY for the purpose of colour, then so I would.
The canine Mengeler's should be ashamed of themselves. They achieve nothing, bar the fragmentation of those breeds, who many and for many years worked to create, and now what do we have? Those who would dismantle the good work of those who actually understood their precepts.
I'm sorry, but the "Shall we experiment" culture, angers me, beyond words.
Alec.
The canine Mengeler's should be ashamed of themselves. They achieve nothing, bar the fragmentation of those breeds, who many and for many years worked to create, and now what do we have? Those who would dismantle the good work of those who actually understood their precepts.
I'm sorry, but the "Shall we experiment" culture, angers me, beyond words.
Alec.
PolarSkye
Well-Known Member
MurphysMinder
Well-Known Member
With you there Alec, as CC says you only have to look at the inbreeding on some of the "krazy kolor" GSDs.
CorvusCorax
'Do you come here often?'
Here here, there are some people out there who want to make a 'name' for themselves and create a reputation and a legacy...I'd rather remark upon people who breed dogs sound in mind and body and fit for purpose
gunnergundog
Well-Known Member
Fox red is an accepted colour if you look at the breed standard....as is a white splash on the chest.
The odd mis-mark crops up in litters; in the past they were culled.....now they are 'designer'. In many cases they are a throw back to when the breed was being 'created' and a lack of knowledge as to what is behind the pedigree. However, that is not to condone those that try to deliberately create 'sought after/rare' colours.
The odd mis-mark crops up in litters; in the past they were culled.....now they are 'designer'.
In many cases they are a throw back to when the breed was being 'created' and a lack of knowledge as to what is behind the pedigree. However, that is not to condone those that try to deliberately create 'sought after/rare' colours.Alec Swan
Well-Known Member
I'm humbled, but perhaps we should take this a step further. Just WHO TF thought that it was such a good idea to accept those Labrador puppies which were anything other than black or yellow?
There will be a legion now of Lab owners who tell me that their Fox Reds, their Chocolates and for all I know, their Avocados, are the most wonderful dogs which God ever gave breath too, but the point is that as a breed, they were designed to do a job of work, and their "Pet duties", were of secondary, and during their breed formation, of limited interest.
Back in the '60s my mother worked as an estate secretary for a peer of the realm. He had the most delightful yellow(?) Lab bitch, except that she wasn't really yellow, she was the colour of very dark honey, almost a pale ginger, if that makes sense, and Tandy was her name. Trust me, she was a delight, and I learned much from her. Anyway, local breeders wanted to breed from her, but Lordy refused, because he felt that it was wrong. It was as wrong then as it is now.
It really isn't my intention to offend others, but I do worry at the direction which dog breeding is taking, and that's not just by the clowns, but by those who really should know better.
Alec.
Ets, just as a footnote, it isn't my intention that I should garner support, but more that others can explain to me where I'm wrong. a.
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dressagedreamer
Well-Known Member
Izzywizz
Well-Known Member
What about the fox reds that weren't intentional? i had no idea that something SO dark would be produced. A couple of my fox red's full brothers & sisters are being trained buy some of the best gun dog trainers in the country, including the guy who trains us. Admittedly they are not being trained for field trials, but they are going to be well used working dogs. All the trainers cannot say enough good things about these dogs, attitude, hunting ability etc. I bred for ability, colour was secondary - I wanted something other than black so I could easy tell the two apart when they were working.
I will put my fox red in pup and probably to another fox red, but if i cannot find a suitable fox red dog (temperament, working ability etc) it will put her to a yellow or black.
I will put my fox red in pup and probably to another fox red, but if i cannot find a suitable fox red dog (temperament, working ability etc) it will put her to a yellow or black.
Slinkyunicorn
Well-Known Member
She is a gorgeous dog Izzywhizz - ours was the same colour
Izzywizz
Well-Known Member
Thank you! i have yet to meet one so dark. i know there are a few around, just haven;t bumped into them yet!
Aru
Well-Known Member
Are brindle labradors possible...yes yes they are.
Heres the genetics behind it(kindly explained on another site by the vet showing the pics of purebred lab pubs with brindle markings)..il see if i can hunt down the pics are they were quite cool.
"Labrador color depends on three main genes:
The B series determines whether they are black or chocolate, by modifying eumelanin pigment. Both B_ (black) and bb (chocolate) are both present in the labrador.
The E series determines whether they are black/chocolate or yellow, because the recessive ee prevents the production of any eulelamin in the hair. Both E_ (black or chocolate) and ee (yellow/red) are present in the Labrador.
The K series, just recently identified, determines whether the black/chocolate color is present in the entire coat, or whether the coat is streaked in the pattern we call brindle. The overwhelming majority of Labradors are homozygous KK, and the entire coat is a solid color.
A rare few are Kkˆbr. Their coat, if it is not ee yellow, is solid black or chocolate. When these Kkˆbr individuals are bred together, a pretty uncommon event, about one out of four offspring are likely to show brindle color (again, unless they are ee).
The location of the brindle color depends on another set of genes, the A series. The aˆt gene in that series produces a black or chocolate dog with tan points, such as seen in Dobermans, Rottweilers, Bernese Mountain Dogs, Collies and some of my Shelties. Labradors are usually (maybe always) aˆtaˆt, so that the brindle color only shows in the tan points. Look at your photos of the puppies with that color, and you will see that the brindle only occurs where the Doberman or Rottie is tan.
If I am totally confusing you, check out http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dogcolors.html maintained by Dr Sheila Schmutz at the University of Saskatchewan. In a personal communication several years ago, she told me that all the Labradors they had checked were aˆtaˆt. They carry the gene for tan/brindle points although it is usually not expressed because of the dominant K gene.
The Labrador litter that I saw with brindle points were the offspring of a yellow bred to a chocolate. Because most breeders do not mix the yellow and chocolate lines, I had told the owner the puppies would most likely all be black. That threw the owner for a loop (after all, both yellow and chocolate are recessive), but I guessed right. Except that three or four of the black puppies had brindle points "
Heres the genetics behind it(kindly explained on another site by the vet showing the pics of purebred lab pubs with brindle markings)..il see if i can hunt down the pics are they were quite cool.
"Labrador color depends on three main genes:
The B series determines whether they are black or chocolate, by modifying eumelanin pigment. Both B_ (black) and bb (chocolate) are both present in the labrador.
The E series determines whether they are black/chocolate or yellow, because the recessive ee prevents the production of any eulelamin in the hair. Both E_ (black or chocolate) and ee (yellow/red) are present in the Labrador.
The K series, just recently identified, determines whether the black/chocolate color is present in the entire coat, or whether the coat is streaked in the pattern we call brindle. The overwhelming majority of Labradors are homozygous KK, and the entire coat is a solid color.
A rare few are Kkˆbr. Their coat, if it is not ee yellow, is solid black or chocolate. When these Kkˆbr individuals are bred together, a pretty uncommon event, about one out of four offspring are likely to show brindle color (again, unless they are ee).
The location of the brindle color depends on another set of genes, the A series. The aˆt gene in that series produces a black or chocolate dog with tan points, such as seen in Dobermans, Rottweilers, Bernese Mountain Dogs, Collies and some of my Shelties. Labradors are usually (maybe always) aˆtaˆt, so that the brindle color only shows in the tan points. Look at your photos of the puppies with that color, and you will see that the brindle only occurs where the Doberman or Rottie is tan.
If I am totally confusing you, check out http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dogcolors.html maintained by Dr Sheila Schmutz at the University of Saskatchewan. In a personal communication several years ago, she told me that all the Labradors they had checked were aˆtaˆt. They carry the gene for tan/brindle points although it is usually not expressed because of the dominant K gene.
The Labrador litter that I saw with brindle points were the offspring of a yellow bred to a chocolate. Because most breeders do not mix the yellow and chocolate lines, I had told the owner the puppies would most likely all be black. That threw the owner for a loop (after all, both yellow and chocolate are recessive), but I guessed right. Except that three or four of the black puppies had brindle points "
CorvusCorax
'Do you come here often?'
Can I just ask (to anyone, generally), in this day and age, when rescues are already full to bursting, should people be experimenting with certain colours just for the sake of producing certain colours?
The thing about recreating the wheel is that you have to have quite a few litters, which will have quite a few puppies in them, a lot of trial and error, to get the result you want.
If the animals which carry the desirable gene or colour but are of questionable conformation or character, do you breed them anyway and hope to correct this later?
What if the dogs which carry the colour also carry, say, epilepsy or elbow problems or gastric problems?
Breeding for one thing and one thing alone, and especially colour, is a dodgy road to go down IMO.
The thing about recreating the wheel is that you have to have quite a few litters, which will have quite a few puppies in them, a lot of trial and error, to get the result you want.
If the animals which carry the desirable gene or colour but are of questionable conformation or character, do you breed them anyway and hope to correct this later?
What if the dogs which carry the colour also carry, say, epilepsy or elbow problems or gastric problems?
Breeding for one thing and one thing alone, and especially colour, is a dodgy road to go down IMO.
Aru
Well-Known Member
Also link to some of the mismarkings that can be seen in labs.Some good examples of brindle on here
http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/mismarks.html
They didn't include the silver labs.Though i believe there is speculation that it could be a dilution of the chocolate gene(introduced dilution)
Dilution genes in dogs tend to go hand in hand with skin problems.In one well known one as the dog gets older its lovely unusually coloured hair tends to fall out leaving a wonderfully moth-eaten look to the coat....people who buy for colour dont usually like when this happens.Im a bad person and while I feel bad for the dog part of me is going HA!Blue and fawn dobermans are prone to it and i think of the top of my head perhaps the apricot coloured poodles as well.
http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/mismarks.html
They didn't include the silver labs.Though i believe there is speculation that it could be a dilution of the chocolate gene(introduced dilution)
Dilution genes in dogs tend to go hand in hand with skin problems.In one well known one as the dog gets older its lovely unusually coloured hair tends to fall out leaving a wonderfully moth-eaten look to the coat....people who buy for colour dont usually like when this happens.Im a bad person and while I feel bad for the dog part of me is going HA!Blue and fawn dobermans are prone to it and i think of the top of my head perhaps the apricot coloured poodles as well.
Brigadoon
Well-Known Member
My parents had a black and tan lab in the mid 70s. From a big litter of labs and he was the only one of this colour. He was a great dog. He did look rottie like but was def from 2 lab parents. People were always asking about him covering their bitches but he was neutered as my parents had the foresight.
I agree about idiots breeding dogs as "designer" either for colour/breed etc etc.
They are not responsible. Rescues are full to bursting.
I agree about idiots breeding dogs as "designer" either for colour/breed etc etc.
They are not responsible. Rescues are full to bursting.
Cop-Pop
Well-Known Member
Yellow Dog will sometimes have the odd cluster of three or four black hairs - they look very odd as hes a pale yellow. As his mum was black I assume it comes from that?
EAST KENT
Well-Known Member
I breed fox red labs;they are heavily working/field trial lines..a very beautiful colour in my opinion.Today`s show labs,like "golden" retrievers ,have got paler,and much heavier bodied ..to the point that actually working would be very hard for them . In the US,and some in Europe,have managed to get amazing deep,deep reds and with good show conformation.Look to RedRiver and KellyGreen kennels. As I remember keepers labs were of a proper darker yellow ,and darker to red is still prefered over the usual "pet" colour of cream to almost white. As to brindle...well,the one linked has the wierdest bowed front I have ever seen on a lab myself.....perhaps hinting at a dose of mastiff or similar?
As to the "silver" labs..is`nt it strange that they all have such HUGE ears? Hmm,so do Weimeraners!
As to the "silver" labs..is`nt it strange that they all have such HUGE ears? Hmm,so do Weimeraners!
Spudlet
Well-Known Member
I read that the black and tans hark back to an outcross with a Gordon Setter, made to try and improve working ability. IMO, a good working dog cannot be a bad colour.
Wishful
Well-Known Member
My fox red is a similar colour- more or less the colour of bracken in autumn/winter. He was the only yellow in a litter of black puppies from two black parents, but in his only litter (with light red bitch) all the pups were between him and her in shade.
He seems to be the classic working shape (leggy, athletic, broad head) and temperament (loves bangs, calm when he needs to be, excitable when you say he can) but as we aren't interested in shooting we never got around to training him. He's a lovely pet though as he more or less has an on/off switch - if you're ill he doesn't hassle for a walk, but will happily do 12 hours a day. He's also very easygoing for an entire male
A friend has a black working dog from completely different lines, but they are almost exactly the same shape (apart from the fact that he has a boy's head).
Why did we breed from him - because he has a fantastic temperament, good hip score and clear eyes, and we knew the owner of the bitch. We'd've been happy to breed him with any suitable lab with a sensible owner, but as it's not commercial - he'll probably sire one more litter - his breeder wants a pup from him as she prefers his shape to the girl she kept!
He seems to be the classic working shape (leggy, athletic, broad head) and temperament (loves bangs, calm when he needs to be, excitable when you say he can) but as we aren't interested in shooting we never got around to training him. He's a lovely pet though as he more or less has an on/off switch - if you're ill he doesn't hassle for a walk, but will happily do 12 hours a day. He's also very easygoing for an entire male
A friend has a black working dog from completely different lines, but they are almost exactly the same shape (apart from the fact that he has a boy's head).
Why did we breed from him - because he has a fantastic temperament, good hip score and clear eyes, and we knew the owner of the bitch. We'd've been happy to breed him with any suitable lab with a sensible owner, but as it's not commercial - he'll probably sire one more litter - his breeder wants a pup from him as she prefers his shape to the girl she kept!
PorkChop
Well-Known Member
Totally agree, and the same applies to a horse.
I don't agree with purposefully breeding for colour however.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
surely a colour is just a colour if the dog is in every other way an on spec labrador and can do what a labrador should do I really don't see the problem if it happens to occur albeit at a lower frequency than the standards. If the frequency is low that breeding for the specific colours is going to cause significant inbreeding then that is a problem but otherwise I don't really get it!
I found this yesterday and thought it an interesting read with regards to all of the other inputs of various breeds.
http://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2011/12/30/william-stratton-and-the-brindle-retriever/
I found this yesterday and thought it an interesting read with regards to all of the other inputs of various breeds.
http://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2011/12/30/william-stratton-and-the-brindle-retriever/