Britsh Horse - suggestion of £100 licence

maisie06 said:
I don't think it would work, it would be unfair to charge that for everyone, eg, we have very few bridleways compared with other parts of the country so would have no value for money. The passport system is a total farce and the only owners who would stump up are the good, responsible ones, the ones producing mass numbers of low value, scrawny ponies will never pay up....
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Oh don't worry about all those scrawny horses when all the decent producers like JG give up we will be forced into buying those or going off to Ireland and the Netherlands to look for horses .
 
JanetGeorge said:
And that's WITHOUT considering the £8,000+ per year I'd be paying to licence brood mares, retirees, and the yearlings, 2 year olds and 3 year olds that are being run on (and never SEE a bridle path!)
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Yep, not as much as you, but I'd be looking at a couple of grand or so a year, and I just wouldn't be amenable to this. I bet buyers wouldn't be happy when you tried to pass some of this cost on either.
 
Hello Everyone

As Goldenstar has already pointed out, this comes from an opinion piece in British Horse which was written by Professor Knottenbelt. I need to make clear that the views are those of Prof K and are certainly not BHS policy. Our job is to represent our members and I think, as this thread makes clear, campaigning for licensing would probably not be very popular! However, I do think we need to respect the incredible knowledge, experience and expertise that Prof K has even if we don't agree with what he is saying.

Even though ownership licensing is not what the BHS is looking for, we obviously did take the decision to publish this piece. The reason for that was simply to get people talking, which seems to have worked. As you will know, we (as in Britain as a whole, not to mention Ireland) are in the middle of a massive equine welfare crisis. I know we keep banging on about it and people are probably bored of hearing about it but the sanctuaries are full, poor quality horses are changing hands for less than the price of a ham and cheese panini and we are about to go into the winter which, if it is harsh, could be by far the worst we have ever faced. We have to do something and that something needs to be major. I am personally finding what we are facing exhausting, everywhere I am turn I am hearing about the next group of horses suffering. And there are lots of other people, and organisations, feeling the same. Licensing probably isn't the answer but we do need some sort of revolution and quick! You all know what I am talking about, I see the threads in here about dodgy Facebook groups giving away free horses and so on so I know this is a savvy forum. If you have any ideas on what we should be doing please share them!

For those who are BHS members, I hoped you enjoyed the article on the castration clinic that preceded the Prof K article. I know that clinic was only a drop in the ocean but it was also just a pilot project. There will be more next year. So to all our members, thank you for your support. Your membership fees made that happen and I am very grateful.

Keep talking about the article and share your ideas. PLEASE!
 
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BHS_Lee said:
Hello Everyone

As Goldenstar has already pointed out, this comes from an opinion piece in British Horse which was written by Professor Knottenbelt. I need to make clear that the views are those of Prof K and are certainly not BHS policy.
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Yes, that has been pointed out. Although I don't agree in theory anyway, I'm not too worried if its Prof K's opinion or BHS policy, just as long as it doesn't become Government policy.

However, I do think we need to respect the incredible knowledge, experience and expertise that Prof K has even if we don't agree with what he is saying.
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I don't see that anyone has disrespected him.
 
I dont see why I should have to pay £100 when all the local pikes just tether theirt unmicrochipped horses and unpassported horses around the place. Making Me and other responsible owners pay wont put a stop to indescrminate breeding and irrisponsible ownership, it will, in effect just be "fineing" those who look after their horses and letting those who dont get away with it. Absolute madness.
 
I think that rather than licensing for every horse it should be stallions that are licensed and the cost of a license should be more than the cost of gelding. That might just encourage people to get their colts cut instead of keeping entire and running with mares because it is an easy option. If passports could be checked at places like Appleby, then stallion licenses could be too.
It might not solve the issues with poor and overbred stock, but it might be a step towards discouraging it.
 
But if passports were properly enforced this would not be necessary. Absolutely agree with JG, we already pay to register a horse - Passport, DNA, Vet's visit and ID, Microchipping, etc and none of this is cheap. Why should we pay another £100 on top per horse. British breeding is suffering and all resources seem to be in saving everything else. We really should consider the finances and spend the (limited) resources on something worthwhile. If there is not a market then PTS if unviable - we cannot save everything. It is an awful situation that needs sorting out.
 
I'd like to see the stallion licence be brought back (in fact, I have no idea why it was abolished). Wont stop a lot of the fly-grazers, but would be easier for the agencies to enforce immediate castration or confiscation & in turn would slow indiscriminate breeding (possibly)

I dont agree with the Prof on the licence for all, too hard hitting - not whilst other pet or agricultural animals are unrestricted.

You'll never stop people breeding from poor animals, nor from overstocking, but the agencies (DEFRA in this case) actually need to bother to police existing regs for passports (eg: get them or have your stock destroyed, not taken to a welfare agency)
 
EffyCorsten said:
Grr I agree with that AND then they can't even close the gate after they have left rubbish, pestered my horses and fed them all sorts of crap!
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At my yard one lot actually took down the fence instead of using the stile resulting in at least 1 if not 2 horses getting onto a busy country lane...

In response to the original question I don't see how it will work as, as someone else has previously mentioned, there will be people who just won't bother with paying - how will the system be policed? How would it effect breeders/dealers? I personally wouldn't be too happy about paying it.
 
I agree with most, in theory fine, in reality a waste of time and money. There are actually no bridleways near me anyhow, and why should I use money I could use to feed and care for my animals to line someone elses pocket? It just would not work anyhow, as said, the good will pay the others won't.
 
I certainly wont be paying it!! :(
We have a lot of bridle paths around here but riders arent the only users, cyclists, and walkers use them as well, passports are paid for by the horse owners!
Equine and veterinary research i presume is paid for by grants like any other research , veterinary covers more than just horses, what about dog and cat etc owners?
No this is B-$ and isnt the first time this has come up! If this becomes law or even looks like it might do then we ALL have too stand together against it !!
 
Why not an inexpensive licence, one per owner that can be taken away in the event of welfare convictions/fly grazing occurring?. And very hefty fines/confiscation of stock for those that are caught keeping horses without one. That might actually do some good, rather than just another tax to generate money for some other purpose.
 
I wouldn't be in favour of a blanket annual charge (the cost of keeping my collection of field ornaments is bad enough! ) primarily as it would push some people over the edge and would only be paid by the law abiding.

If they could sort out the passporting issue, actually enforcing change of ownership too the perhaps a levy could be raised that way? It could be collected by the relevant agencies (on the assumption you can get them to communicate! !) and should then run alongside a structure that is largely in place, albeit one that currently doesn't work very well.

That might discourage the purchase of unsuitable animals by unsuitable people but would only be a one off.....

I can see dealers/traders who buy lots in then being impacted...so maybe then an exemption for registered dealers?

I'm just musing.....would also agree with stallion licensing. Would make people think about which colts are being left entire.
 
I think the only law in this area would make a difference would be a robust one about stallions .
That's where robust legislation could make a difference to welfare.
The cost of a stallion licence would have to say three times the cost of castration .
The law would have to contain a seize and destroy power for stallions where owners can not be easily found and we would have to robustly enforce that.
You would have to deal with the age issue , licences would have to be applied for and obtained by a certain age and we would have to deal with how that was done it would need to be simple and easy to manage.
we would have to brace ourselves to be tough about the dumped colts that would follow ,with a no chip no passport then off to feed the lions rule that was cheap and simple to administer or costs would be apaulling .
With chips and and linked to a passport law where no horse could be passported if it was not linked to a chipped passported stallion in time this could improve things .
Do I think this will happen no I dont .
 
Goldenstar said:
I think the only law in this area would make a difference would be a robust one about stallions .
That's where robust legislation could make a difference to welfare.
The cost of a stallion licence would have to say three times the cost of castration .
The law would have to contain a seize and destroy power for stallions where owners can not be easily found and we would have to robustly enforce that.
You would have to deal with the age issue , licences would have to be applied for and obtained by a certain age and we would have to deal with how that was done it would need to be simple and easy to manage.
we would have to brace ourselves to be tough about the dumped colts that would follow ,with a no chip no passport then off to feed the lions rule that was cheap and simple to administer or costs would be apaulling .
With chips and and linked to a passport law where no horse could be passported if it was not linked to a chipped passported stallion in time this could improve things .
Do I think this will happen no I dont .
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I agree with all this, sadly including the last bit.
 
Goldenstar said:
I think the only law in this area would make a difference would be a robust one about stallions .
That's where robust legislation could make a difference to welfare.
The cost of a stallion licence would have to say three times the cost of castration .
The law would have to contain a seize and destroy power for stallions where owners can not be easily found and we would have to robustly enforce that.
You would have to deal with the age issue , licences would have to be applied for and obtained by a certain age and we would have to deal with how that was done it would need to be simple and easy to manage.
we would have to brace ourselves to be tough about the dumped colts that would follow ,with a no chip no passport then off to feed the lions rule that was cheap and simple to administer or costs would be apaulling .
With chips and and linked to a passport law where no horse could be passported if it was not linked to a chipped passported stallion in time this could improve things .
Do I think this will happen no I dont .
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i agree with this too. ^^^
Unless we get tough and PTS the unregistered animals nothing will change. responsible owners will pay up and the rest will carry on regardless.
Personally, I think the issue will be sorted in a slightly different way when the government brings in a tax for land used for grazing horses.
 
In theory, a great idea; in practice - it won't work.

I have no idea what will sort out this crisis, but, as Lee says, something needs to be done, and soon, so any suggestions?
Lets turn this into something positive, especially if the BHS are keeping an eye on this thread.
 
babymare said:
In theory brilliant. in reality can i suggest they get passport fiasco sorted out first. again the good law abiding people will pay but how many wont. they cant police the passport scenario so pray how will they police a licence. And certainly wont help the thousands of animals kept out of sight already suffering.
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^^^This totally^^^ Sort out passports first and maybe license all stallions?
 
I also don't like the idea of the £100 licence. I only have 1 horse, and she's kept comfortable. I work full time and have a reasonable job, my horse is only on part livery and I don't pay our mortgage - but my horse costs a quarter of my income to keep. Add insurance, fuel to the yard, shoes, wardrobe, lessons, routine healthcare etc to the mix and I'm surprised anyone can afford it who isn't on megabucks. I give up a lot to have her, and I'm very lucky. That £100 is two new rugs, a set of shoes and some feed or 2 months' insurance payments to me. I wouldn't have to give up but I'd really begrudge it especially as the people whose behaviour it's meant to change will not bother.

To be honest, I'd merrily give £50 for some sort of PTS drive. Like Beeston - if everyone got together and gave £50, those horses going for £5 at Beeston could be bought and PTS immediately. If they are £5, they don't have a good future. I'd rather it stopped now before they are abandoned and neglected further.

I really feel for responsible breeders but as many have pointed out, it's extremely difficult if not impossible to make any money breeding now. I think ultimately that will change all behaviour towards breeding, as it becomes economically unviable to breed.

I hope this thread stays live for a long time and a lot of people comment - it's such an important issue, I really think it's THE most important issue for horses in modern times and something does need to be done, urgently.
 
Sounds like another excuse to charge people money and most likely get absolutely nothing in return. I pay enough taxes as it is and I doubt my bridleways would be any better!

I do think the idea of a license for horses and also dogs might be a good idea, but with just a small fee.
 
mandwhy said:
Sounds like another excuse to charge people money and most likely get absolutely nothing in return. I pay enough taxes as it is and I doubt my bridleways would be any better!

I do think the idea of a license for horses and also dogs might be a good idea, but with just a small fee.
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Totally agree. Will they make cyclists pay a license for using the roads? Vet research? I am 100% cynical that the money would actually go to support horses as well. Look at the wretched fiasco we all have to observe. Aka the passport issue.
 
Ha ******* ha, already pay for dog licences here and we have mandatory microchipping!

1) Lost dogs cannot be identified by their licence tag if they have lost their name tag.
2) Microchips are not all supported by all the councils - just the main four companies. Guess what four microchip companies my vet did not pick? Go on...!
3) You have to pay any time you need to change details on microchip and this can take weeks to confirm. So moving house is fun.
4) As blinking usual, the people that cause the problems don't bother with licences or updating microchip details, and local pounds do not bother checking when someone adopts! They also give out un spayed and un neutered animals, often riddled with disease.

In short, the local authorities are not doing their job, the system is a joke, and they can go jump if they think I am falling for the idea a licence for horses will be any different!
 
Oh yes and the online licence system? They sent me the wrong licence which meant it didn't match my microchip details, so licence was invalid, so had to pay again for a new one! Aaaaaaaarrrrrggggghhhhhh!:mad:
 
Why should I have to pay to subsidise welfare cases whose owners are definitely not going to be paying the licence? It would be one of those bad pieces of legislation that would only target the good people, the gypsies aren't going to pay and the police aren't going to make them, neither are the backyard horse owners with a ropey mare they breed yearly for a few extra pennies.
 
BHS_Lee said:
Hello Everyone

As Goldenstar has already pointed out, this comes from an opinion piece in British Horse which was written by Professor Knottenbelt. I need to make clear that the views are those of Prof K and are certainly not BHS policy. Our job is to represent our members and I think, as this thread makes clear, campaigning for licensing would probably not be very popular! However, I do think we need to respect the incredible knowledge, experience and expertise that Prof K has even if we don't agree with what he is saying.

Even though ownership licensing is not what the BHS is looking for, we obviously did take the decision to publish this piece. The reason for that was simply to get people talking, which seems to have worked. As you will know, we (as in Britain as a whole, not to mention Ireland) are in the middle of a massive equine welfare crisis. I know we keep banging on about it and people are probably bored of hearing about it but the sanctuaries are full, poor quality horses are changing hands for less than the price of a ham and cheese panini and we are about to go into the winter which, if it is harsh, could be by far the worst we have ever faced. We have to do something and that something needs to be major. I am personally finding what we are facing exhausting, everywhere I am turn I am hearing about the next group of horses suffering. And there are lots of other people, and organisations, feeling the same. Licensing probably isn't the answer but we do need some sort of revolution and quick! You all know what I am talking about, I see the threads in here about dodgy Facebook groups giving away free horses and so on so I know this is a savvy forum. If you have any ideas on what we should be doing please share them!

For those who are BHS members, I hoped you enjoyed the article on the castration clinic that preceded the Prof K article. I know that clinic was only a drop in the ocean but it was also just a pilot project. There will be more next year. So to all our members, thank you for your support. Your membership fees made that happen and I am very grateful.

Keep talking about the article and share your ideas. PLEASE!
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Perhaps then, you should have included an editorial highlighting the fact that this piece was the personal view of Prof Knottenbelt and not BHS policy? As the article intro points out, Prof Knottenbelt is Vice Chairman of BHS Scotland and as he refers in the article to the BHS being one of the organisations best placed to manage a license scheme, it's hardly surprising that it does appear that the BHS endorses this proposal.

I am also surprised by the claim made in the article "You simply don't see laminitis in feral horses". You most certainly do, and this has been confirmed by a number of studies published by the Australian Brumby Research Unit. Presumably you do have an editorial team checking the validity of claims made in articles published in British Horse?
 
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I thought the graphic photos of castration were entirely unsuitable for a magazine with a section for children tbh! Will not be allowing my three nieces access to this issue. They are pony mad, but very innocent and these photos would upset them. Perhaps a warning at the start of the article instead of straight to the blood and gore?

And yes, I was present for my chap's castration. He was done via standing sedation, so no one sitting on him etc. I do hope all required aftercare will be provided for the animals in this article?
 
Capriole said:
I will stop being a good law abiding person if they try anything like this.
Especially if its an annual charge, just no.
.... I'm all out of craps to give about hoop jumping.
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Same here. A lot of our riding is onto forestry commission land, which charges an annual fee to horse riders, but not to walkers or mountain bikers, both groups of which are much greater in number and cause a great deal more damage AND are given special 'routes' that go off-piste and cross public rights of way. I haven't been stopped in 13 years of using this land but if I ever was, I'd be telling them that yes, I'll pay. Just as soon as they charge all other users.
However, since I very rarely see any sort of official out on rides, I think this may be a pee in the wind sort of idea. I'm also out of craps to give. Must be a national shortage or something...
 
I haven't read all responses but I'll consider paying a licence fee when I see passports being used properly - they were something else forced on horse owners with the sop that they would reduce theft - I've seen no evidence of that and I don't think we ever will - especially seeing as there are no border checks. I've travelled (my own) horses abroad twice now and when getting on the ferry we weren't even asked for the passports let alone for the horses to be checked. We could have had anything in the box!

So I can see the licence fee being about as much use as passports - another expense for nothing in return.
 
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