Broken Saddle Tree - Any thoughts?

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Baileyhoss

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I have recently acquired a saddle with a broken tree. It's a Sturgess, which had been fitted with flair. It's an older saddle, but not drastically so, we are not very sure of the age.

When I opened it, the laminate had been cracked right across both sides of the seat, the cracks both run directly through the steel rivets where the steel frame is joined together.


The owner of the saddle is adamant that the saddle has never been fell on or rolled on by a horse. There is no obvious damage or any scrapes on the cantle or pommel or anywhere else. It has not been left on a tacked up horse unsupervised, never been dropped, mistreated or lent to anyone. However, she has livery clients who do have access to the tackroom. She doesn't think any of them would be responsible.

One saddle fitter suggested that it may have fractured due to being stored in the cold tackroom, but it hasn't actually been that cold up here this winter. (Some frosts overnight, but nothing like the -17c we have seen previous years). I have never heard of a tree reacting to temperature like that before. Surely this would become a common problem in winter if that was possible?

My guess is that the saddle would have had to have been subjected to a fair amount of force, for this to have happened. I wonder whether one of her liveries is maybe not letting on to borrowing the saddle and having an accident with it.

Is it possible that it could have happened through aging/general wear and tear. Is it maybe due to the design of the tree with the rivets and the join in the steel frame being located where they are? Could that be a weakness over time with forces such as the saddle being twisted by mounting from the ground.

Any ideas?

Pic - https://www.icloud.com/photostream/#A95qXGF1651bW
 
Have you contacted Sturgess? As it is across the rivets I wonder whether it is a weakness that they might be aware of in that model? Not sure if they are still in business - does anyone know?
 
Hi guys.

I have emailed Sturgess and David May.

On closer inspection I see the steel frame has actually fractured at the rivet points as well. I am beginning to think that this is a design issue with the thickness or the quality of steel used.

SBloom, I was hoping you may have had experience/ideas of this. Have you seen this kind of damage before?

I have added more photos to that photostream link.

Thanks

Fiona
 
Kaylum said:
Not sure about the temperature, but was always told mounting from the ground is not good for saddles.
Click to expand...

Mounting from the ground is more likely to twist the tree. I suppose in time it would give way but you would see signs of asymmetrey before it got to that stage.
 
I thought that too JillA. I'm also remembering what CremeDeMonthe said about the webbing attaching the girth straps and these ones are separate pieces just stapled on and not one piece over the tree as well!.

Hmmmmmmmm.
 
Eek Baileyhoss - where did you get the saddle from? Are you close enough to Walsall to ge the saddle to Sturgess to let them take a look - that sounds as though it has been tampered with (previously broken tree "fixed" maybe?). I had a question mark over an Albion I sold on ebay and Albion were very happy to look at photographs and would have inspected the saddle if I took it in, fortunately my saddler opened it and found the tree was fine. You can get the tree replaced, no need to write the saddle off, but it costs a bit.
 
Unfortunately, I'm up in the North of Scotland, so a little far from Walsall. The saddle has been given to me as a learning tool in exchange for removing the flair system so that hopefully the owner could have it refitted to a new saddle and save her a few pennies. I can't see any evidence of the saddle having been opened before I got my hands on it.

The girl has decided that the cost of replacing the tree would be better put against a new saddle.
 
Eep! :eek: Looks like where they've riveted the the metal onto the laminate they've created a stress point. Any flexion of the tree and it was going to crack sometime. As for the girth straps-worrying or what? Should be in cremdemonthe's rogues gallery.
 
Don't get me wrong, there is a similar point on most of the sprung trees I have looked at where there is a join in the steel frame which is held together by rivets into the laminate beech tree. It seems to just be the way they are made. I don't know much about engineering, but I would have thought this could be a weakness too. it must need a certain spec of steel/rivet to work.

I have added an Ideal Jessica Tree to the photostream which shows the join as well. There is nothing wrong with that saddle.
 
Does it make a difference that the ends are rounded off? Less leverage maybe.

Is the steel on the broken tree thicker? As in if it doesn't 'give' something else has to?
 
The rivets on the Jessica and on my Albion are the other way around - frame from the cantle on top of the rest (looking at it from underneath). On the broken tree the frame from the cantle is UNDER the rest, could well be causing a stress point. Looks like an amateur fix to me
 
I used to work with Steve (Sturgess) never had any tree break due to design fault in all the years I worked along side him. I have been to see many a saddle made by him and his team and none have had girth straps like that before!!! He's very careful with webbing and girths.

He is the producer of many different named saddle brands as well as his own and part owns a well known saddle comany.

I'm not saying he is perfect, sometimes saddles took him upto 6 weeks to make!! But I have never had a problem with any of the saddles hes made. Infact I have a made to measure GP saddle form him, had it a while now and am on his website :rolleyes:

Have a chat with him, he is lovely and I'm sure he would look at pictures for you.
 
JillA. I had noticed that and wondered if it would make a difference.

Thanks PicoleNicole. I was hoping to have a reply like that. It would be great to have an answer on whether the saddle has been tampered with after manufacture.
 
I have seen several like this, most but not all have been rolled on by the horse, you don't always get damage to the cantle either so you can never tell 100% if it's been rolled on.BUT I would throw it in the bin to be honest, if you saw my thread on badly made saddles then this one qualifies, Look at the girth strap webs, they are ALL short and not over the tree and the long webs etc BAD way to make a saddle!
Go and look at my pics on the thread I put up and then come and look at this one!
Oz
 
Thanks Oz. All you say makes sense and I had looked at your thread and the info you sent and identified the problem with the girth webbing. However, someone on here has vouched for the saddler and raised the question over whether the saddle left the workshop in this state or whether is has been botched at a later date?

Do you think the way the metal frame is constructed/riveted is of any significance as we noted it is riveted together differently from the Albion and Ideal trees? Or is this just a variation of normal construction for a tree?

I originally suspected the saddle had met with an accident, but as the owner denies anything could have happened and the lack of any other marks or damage, I wanted to explore other explanations as well.

Don't worry, the saddle will end up in the bin, after I have finished disecting it for my own interest.
 
Baileyhoss said:
Thanks Oz. All you say makes sense and I had looked at your thread and the info you sent and identified the problem with the girth webbing. However, someone on here has vouched for the saddler and raised the question over whether the saddle left the workshop in this state or whether is has been botched at a later date?

Do you think the way the metal frame is constructed/riveted is of any significance as we noted it is riveted together differently from the Albion and Ideal trees? Or is this just a variation of normal construction for a tree?

I originally suspected the saddle had met with an accident, but as the owner denies anything could have happened and the lack of any other marks or damage, I wanted to explore other explanations as well.

Don't worry, the saddle will end up in the bin, after I have finished disecting it for my own interest.
Click to expand...

You could start up your own chamber of horrors with it!
I'll photo you some of the trees in my workshop tomorrow and shove them on here, you can see how they are riveted together.
Different tree makers have their own ideas on tree making but the basic way they are made varies little.
I still think that saddle tree has had a "crush" trauma, hence breaking it.I'll also photo you a picture of a broken tree and put that on here too if you'd like to see it?.
Oz :)
 
cremedemonthe said:
You could start up your own chamber of horrors with it!
I'll photo you some of the trees in my workshop tomorrow and shove them on here, you can see how they are riveted together.
Different tree makers have their own ideas on tree making but the basic way they are made varies little.
I still think that saddle tree has had a "crush" trauma, hence breaking it.I'll also photo you a picture of a broken tree and put that on here too if you'd like to see it?.
Oz :)
Click to expand...

Cool! Thanks very much.

F
 
Ok so have started pulling the saddle to pieces and found the girth webbing DOES go over the tree in a continuous piece. It's the loose ends of a doubled length of webbing that are stapled to the underside. The saddle has been rescued from the rogues gallery. My apologies for this. I am still learning about saddle construction. I think this rules out tampering after it left the factory. So the only unanswered question is, what happened to break the tree. Wear and tear or trauma. I'm inclined to agree with cremedemonthe and suspect something had happened to the saddle. I would still be interested to see other examples of tree construction though.
 
If anyone is still interested or following this thread, I had a call from Steve Sturgess today. Very nice chap. He identified the saddle and dated it to manufacture in August 1998.

He stated that there are no issues he is aware of with the tree design or manufacture. The damage is most likely to have come from a trauma or rough handling of some sort, but with 15 years of wear and tear, it may not have had to be a heavy blow like a horse fall.

He also gave a very reasonable quote for fitting a new tree.

Very interesting. (to me anyway).

F x
 
I find threads like this fascinating. So many people sling anything on their horse's back blithely assuming because it looks okay then it must be. Sometimes it doesn't even have to look okay, just be cheap! :eek:
 
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