Bryony Frost

Rowreach said:
one thing I did notice was that in eventing it is perfectly possible for women and men to compete equally, and in racing it generally isn't.
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I don't understand what would physically or psychologically prevent the right woman form competing on equal terms. Can you explain why you believe so, being about the only person on the board with the experience?
 
I'm not a fan of female jockeys. Never have been. But there are some good ones and Bryony is on of the better ones.

I think where people get the idea that women don't stand up to it better than men is because they shine brighter and burn quicker than the men. You see the lads return year after year at the top. The females have a few good years and then fade back into the background.

Nina Carberry and Katie Walsh - you don't hear much of them these days but a few years ago they were all anyone spoke about.

Some horses are definitely girls rides. Some like to be nursed and cajoled round the track and women are better and more sympathetic at this thanew he guys. They tend to try to bully them. Horses sense what you are thinking and feeling. Even if you have only been on them a few moments.

Henrietta Knights comments do not surprise me. She is very old school. I am sure there are many others who think exactly the same but still have careers to think about and don't want to speak out.

Good on Bryony and I wish her all the luck in the world doig what she loves. But I don't think we will here much about her in 5 years time or so.
 
ycbm said:
I don't understand what would physically or psychologically prevent the right woman form competing on equal terms. Can you explain why you believe so, being about the only person on the board with the experience?
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I do think women's maternal instinct kicks in whether you want it to or not or whether you notice it or not. There is always that little bit more self preservation in most women than men.
 
Rowreach said:
I say good luck to her, I have no problem at all with her doing it, but I am responding to those people who think that women in general can or should be doing it.

My point is that if they could, they already would (as in other equestrian sports).
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But it was easier in other equestrian sports, wasn't it? All you needed was one good horse to get you noticed (or your pony if you were Marion Mould) , and you were away. Is that one-horse start possible in racing? Isn't some kind of patronage/sponsorship essential, and almost impossible to find in an industry where even the women think women shouldn't be doing it?

I don't think women in general 'should' be doing it, because I don't think men in general are doing it. But I'm really struggling to understand why people think the right woman can't compete equally against men in jump racing?
 
EKW said:
I do think women's maternal instinct kicks in whether you want it to or not or whether you notice it or not. There is always that little bit more self preservation in most women than men.
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Yes, quite possibly, but I said 'the right woman' EKW. Just as most women would not want to fight on the front line and kill people, some do.

I'm just struggling to understand what would stop that relatively rare gutsy woman from succeeding physically if she had the right mental skills?
 
ycbm said:
Yes, quite possibly, but I said 'the right woman' EKW. Just as most women would not want to fight on the front line and kill people, some do.

I'm just struggling to understand what would stop that relatively rare gutsy woman from succeeding physically if she had the right mental skills?
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Nothing at all to stop them except other people's percaptions that women are the weaker sex and thus won't put them up on their horses. Sexism is very much alive and well in racing. It will change, it is changing bit slowly. Much slower than in any other sphere on the world. In a generation or 2 we will see more of an equal playing field in the opperunities for women in racing. But until then they will always need to work harder, fight harder and be twice as charming as the lads to get even a dodgy ride on an outsider round a yak track to prove your worth.
 
Rowreach said:
If you look at any other sport or activity or job that involves risk, you will find women doing those things and being at the top of their game.

There must be some reason why we have not seen this trend in jump racing. Even those hardy lady point to point riders don't make it on the professional circuit.
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That's not necessarily true. Look at the fight women have had to be allowed to serve on the front line in the military! I think the point (which EKW makes very well) is that there is still a lot of entrenched sexism in certain industries/ sports/ professions and women still need to put up one hell of a fight to be noticed and to make it in those careers.
 
For anyone interested Alistair Down has written a long piece, interviewing Bryony. It can be found online at The Racing Post in the news section. It’s very interesting, she has been extremely ill and come out the other side.
 
HashRouge said:
…….. Look at the fight women have had to be allowed to serve on the front line in the military! I think the point (which EKW makes very well) is that there is still a lot of entrenched sexism in certain industries/ sports/ professions and women still need to put up one hell of a fight to be noticed and to make it in those careers.
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That simply isn't the case regarding front line troops. Girls carry guns but not at the sharp end. ANY male soldier will take on the roll of carer and will have a sense of responsibility for a female soldier, females caught by enemy troops will face the most dreadful abuse, male soldiers know that and as such, girls become a liability in warfare. I'm really sorry, but it's the unadorned truth.

Alec.
 
I wish her every success and an injury free, as far as possible, career.

There is one major issue that could prevent her becoming top class and being on high profile horses and that is owners. Black Corton is owned by eminent owners and credit to them for giving her the ride. If JP etc support her then she has a chance. Lets hope so.
 
Alec Swan said:
That simply isn't the case regarding front line troops. Girls carry guns but not at the sharp end. ANY male soldier will take on the roll of carer and will have a sense of responsibility for a female soldier, females caught by enemy troops will face the most dreadful abuse, male soldiers know that and as such, girls become a liability in warfare. I'm really sorry, but it's the unadorned truth.

Alec.
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Alec, women can now serve in close combat roles in the UK armed forces. The ban on this was lifted in 2016. Women can currently serve in all roles in the RAF, including their ground fighting force, and will soon (as in this year) be able to do the same in the army and navy. The navy is going to accept applications from women for the Royal Marine Commandos. Hence my point about women having had one hell of a fight to serve on the front line - it is only now that this is becoming possible! So you may think you speak the "unadorned truth", but fortunately the powers that be obviously think women will be more of an asset than a hindrance on the front line.
 
HashRouge said:
…….. the powers that be obviously think women will be more of an asset than a hindrance on the front line.
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The directive will be sent down to appease those who wail 'sexism', but the reality is that it won't happen. It can't happen — women in genuine combat and front line situations will be indirectly responsible for the deaths of their brothers in arms.

We may well find that your powers that be 'Nod in agreement, smile sweetly, and then do exactly as they have always done'. It's the only way.

Alec.
 
Alec Swan said:
The directive will be sent down to appease those who wail 'sexism', but the reality is that it won't happen. It can't happen — women in genuine combat and front line situations will be indirectly responsible for the deaths of their brothers in arms.

We may well find that your powers that be 'Nod in agreement, smile sweetly, and then do exactly as they have always done'. It's the only way.

Alec.
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Alec, I can no longer say I respect you. What an awful misogynist you are!

For you to suggest that women are too stupid to take into account a potential increase in their likelihood to be abused, is appalling! And even more appalling, is that you seem to think they want to be rescued from a situation they put themselves in because they have the misfortune to be a women?!

They'll be subject to the same rules, regulations and procedures that men are. Any idiot who puts themselves into a position of dying because their trying to rescue a women because she's a women fully deserves to, if they aren't following orders.
 
I honestly wonder DiNozzo if you actually read my post or thought about your reply and before you decided upon your tirade. You've created a mindset and a story which doesn't in anyway reflect any of my thoughts or intentions.

Perhaps if you took a few minutes and sat down with a nice cup of tea, you may see the world through different eyes. Just a suggestion. :)

Alec. xx
 
DiNozzo said:
Alec, I can no longer say I respect you. What an awful misogynist you are!

For you to suggest that women are too stupid to take into account a potential increase in their likelihood to be abused, is appalling! And even more appalling, is that you seem to think they want to be rescued from a situation they put themselves in because they have the misfortune to be a women?!

They'll be subject to the same rules, regulations and procedures that men are. Any idiot who puts themselves into a position of dying because their trying to rescue a women because she's a women fully deserves to, if they aren't following orders.
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That's not what he said at all.
 
Alec Swan said:
That simply isn't the case regarding front line troops. Girls carry guns but not at the sharp end. ANY male soldier will take on the roll of carer and will have a sense of responsibility for a female soldier, females caught by enemy troops will face the most dreadful abuse, male soldiers know that and as such, girls become a liability in warfare. I'm really sorry, but it's the unadorned truth.

Alec.
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totally agree Alec .political correctness gone mad.
 
Alec Swan said:
The directive will be sent down to appease those who wail 'sexism', but the reality is that it won't happen. It can't happen — women in genuine combat and front line situations will be indirectly responsible for the deaths of their brothers in arms.

We may well find that your powers that be 'Nod in agreement, smile sweetly, and then do exactly as they have always done'. It's the only way.

Alec.
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The Norwegians have been doing it since the 1980s - women in their combat arms and special forces are nothing new. Only time will tell for UK Forces but imho it's not a bad thing, given on every front line of every war zone, humaniatiran crisis, revolt etc there are women as both soldiers and victims.


As for Bryong Frost - good on her!
 
It's hard not to think that blokes taking the role of carer is their problem, and that through training they shouldn't allow things like that to cloud their judgements and behaviour.
 
teapot said:
The Norwegians have been doing it since the 1980s - women in their combat arms and special forces are nothing new. …….. !
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Of course they have, but one niggling point, when have Norwegian troops been seen to be involved in hand to hand street fighting? When have we seen Norwegian troops involved in moving house to house or in hostage situations?

The Norwegians, just as many others have benefited from a stabilised level of world oil prices, brought about by astonishingly corrupt British and US manipulation I'll accept, but have they contributed to the military effort that it's taken? Have they ****!

Don't get me wrong, I'm the greatest fan of the Swedes indeed all Nords, but their fighting forces, whatever their claimed level of training are as a race car which has never been on a track in that they've not been truly tested.

Alec.
 
Alec Swan said:
Of course they have, but one niggling point, when have Norwegian troops been seen to be involved in hand to hand street fighting? When have we seen Norwegian troops involved in moving house to house or in hostage situations?

The Norwegians, just as many others have benefited from a stabilised level of world oil prices, brought about by astonishingly corrupt British and US manipulation I'll accept, but have they contributed to the military effort that it's taken? Have they ****!

Don't get me wrong, I'm the greatest fan of the Swedes indeed all Nords, but their fighting forces, whatever their claimed level of training are as a race car which has never been on a track in that they've not been truly tested.

Alec.
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You should do your research before making such statements. Norway has a very modern army which is involved in NATO exercises and sees regular active service in the middle east and Afghanistan.
 
KautoStar1 said:
You should do your research before making such statements. Norway has a very modern army which is involved in NATO exercises and sees regular active service in the middle east and Afghanistan.
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Nato exercises? :D I'll leave the research to you! :D There's a world of difference between playing soldiers and taking up a position where forward movement will put the soldier in the position, NOT of self defence, but of seeking out and killing another human being. It's simple in films but not quiet the same in reality and in reality the GI Janes are a bit thin on the ground.

Alec.
 
Alec Swan said:
Nato exercises? :D I'll leave the research to you! :D There's a world of difference between playing soldiers and taking up a position where forward movement will put the soldier in the position, NOT of self defence, but of seeking out and killing another human being. It's simple in films but not quiet the same in reality and in reality the GI Janes are a bit thin on the ground.

Alec.
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Oh well clearly you know better. As a mere woman what would I know
 
Alec Swan said:
Nato exercises? :D I'll leave the research to you! :D There's a world of difference between playing soldiers and taking up a position where forward movement will put the soldier in the position, NOT of self defence, but of seeking out and killing another human being. It's simple in films but not quiet the same in reality and in reality the GI Janes are a bit thin on the ground.

Alec.
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That's more than a little insulting to the Norwegian soldiers who have died on active service in Afghanistan.
 
If Alex is correct in that an awful fate awaits captured women surely that gives them a greater incentive to win any encounter encouraging greater acts of bravery, courage and ingenuity.
 
Alec Swan said:
The directive will be sent down to appease those who wail 'sexism', but the reality is that it won't happen. It can't happen — women in genuine combat and front line situations will be indirectly responsible for the deaths of their brothers in arms.

We may well find that your powers that be 'Nod in agreement, smile sweetly, and then do exactly as they have always done'. It's the only way.

Alec.
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I don't understand why you say it can't/ won't happen when the law has changed and it IS happening. As I mentioned, the RAF already accepts women applicants for its ground fighting forces and the army and navy are set to follow suit. I'm sure the numbers won't be large, but some women will inevitably be serving on the front line. You'd like to think that the men they serve with will be well-trained enough that they'll do their job, whether they're serving with men or women.

Just because you don't like the idea of it, doesn't mean that it won't or shouldn't happen.
 
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