BS rules on lame horses?

I can't say I've looked at the list of banned substances for BS, but there are bute alternatives which are allegedly competition legal. There is little proof that they work, but there is decent scientific speculation that some of them will have some effect, but because they're herbal, there is no regulation or requirement for them to be tested and thus there is no evidence they work and they remain competition legal. Frankly the very best scenario, in my mind, is that they are completely ineffectual.

All very true.

Sorry, I was being a bit intentionally obtuse. The long and short of it is anything that's been proven to work will be banned, including "natural" substances so if your herbal prep has, say, Willow in it, it will test and it will be against the rules.

The whole thing about supplements being tested is an interesting situation. They tried to bring in a rule in Canada that supplements be tested for efficacy if any claims were being made but obviously companies complained about the prohibitive costs of doing so, so they went with changing any borderline wording instead. I always laugh when I see discussions where people want proof that this or that works - it's not actually in anyone's best interests to see if the supplements do work! This also means, though, that you can't guarantee they've been tested for safety either . . . ;)

Re the bute for competition, obviously this is a contentious subject - you have only to look to the toing and froing by the FEI! And while many people take various preparations for various ailments, it should be remembered that many of those medications would not be legal for use by any athlete competing in a sport with doping rules. So a bit of bute for a horse at home is not QUITE the same thing as bute for a horse in high level competition.

At this point in time, in areas of the sport that don't ban NSAIDs, it's a choice. We can choose to give a horse a little something (which includes things like steroid injections) to help it along against the wear and tear of life. We can also choose to ride a horse that's a bit "iffy", with or without medication. In areas of the sport which ban medications, even if you think it's best for the horse to have a bit of bute or whatever, that's not the point. It's against the rules.

Quite frankly, a LOT of people adhere to the letter of the law not the spirit. They would NEVER give a horse bute to compete but have no problem giving it say, Devil's Claw. They would never sedate a horse to ride but are always looking for the next great calmer. Really, what's the difference? And before anyone says that "natural" products don't cause harm, that's not true. In the case of bute, say, many of the potential side effects are caused by the same mechanism that makes the drug effective. So any natural preparation that works by the same route would, be definition, potentially cause the same problems. In the case of some of the suspected effective preparations (I believe Devil's Claw falls into this category) no one is really sure how it works (if we agree it does work) so there's simply no way of knowing what it might also do to the horse.

Personally, I think it has to be assessed on a case by case basis. In other words, it's a personal choice. But there is simply no way that would be possible for sport. Plus, they have to take into account other concerns, like public perception. There is clearly a large number of people who believe since horses do not choose to participate in sport we do not have the right to medicate them when they can't compete successfully otherwise. But then, if you're going to have that conversation, you have to engage with the people who say we don't have the right to make them compete in the first place . . . ;)

Obviously, this is a long way from the original discussion but I do think it's naive to think there are simple answers to some of these questions. Okay, an unlevel horse needs to be addressed. In the case of the OP horse, it seems it was much more than unlevel. But the judge quite possibly didn't see this, the horse jumped all the jumps and no one else brought it up. You would HOPE the rider wouldn't bring a lame horse to a show but it's not so simple as saying "Hey! You! On the limping horse! Go away." It's a question of drawing lines and balancing welfare issues with individual rights. Not always that easy when you're talking generalities.
 
All very true.

Sorry, I was being a bit intentionally obtuse. The long and short of it is anything that's been proven to work will be banned, including "natural" substances so if your herbal prep has, say, Willow in it, it will test and it will be against the rules.

The whole thing about supplements being tested is an interesting situation. They tried to bring in a rule in Canada that supplements be tested for efficacy if any claims were being made but obviously companies complained about the prohibitive costs of doing so, so they went with changing any borderline wording instead. I always laugh when I see discussions where people want proof that this or that works - it's not actually in anyone's best interests to see if the supplements do work! This also means, though, that you can't guarantee they've been tested for safety either . . . ;)

Exactly - there is active disincentive for manufacturers to prove efficacy when it comes to bute alternatives.

I believe there is a similar piece of VMD legislation here now which prevents unsubstantiated claims about untested supplements. Supplements therefore aren't tested but the claims about efficacy are re-worded to be vague enough to avoid problems with the VMD.

Toxicity testing with herbal and "natural" treatments is a whole other minefield. But it's natural so it's safe, right ;) :D
 
I remember one trial on MSM years ago, using racing tbs, that yielded initial positive results. Next thing was the Jockey Club discussing how they might test for it . . .never heard of another study. :)
 
I went to a showing show last sunday and was shocked to see 2 lame horses!! 1 could not walk in a straight line it was awful to watch!! Both went on to win a class and another come 2nd in the same class that had 6 others in it then went on to go champion and reserve me and my family where shocked!! We did go and have a word with the show organiser but sadly nothing was said or done about it!!
 
Just one small point about Bute....it isn't actually banned under BS rules...or at least it wasn't...not sure if that's changed in the past couple of years.

Out of interest, which horse was the OP talking about....pm if you prefer.

I have a horse who looks awful in trot....he certainly isn't in any pain...he just can't trot. He's mechanically broken. He jumped low level BS until a year or so ago. The vets had no problem with it.
 
Have to agree with you there, in her last year of BS, yes I did give my old mare a sachet of bute before each competition (she was 19 at the time and a little stiff) did not give it to cover lameness!! If I had to compare it, it would be similar to me taking paracetamol for my aches! Have since retired her from showjumping but she continues to hunt (bute-free)

Thank you for being so honest. Wish there were more like you.
 
I went to a showing show last sunday and was shocked to see 2 lame horses!! 1 could not walk in a straight line it was awful to watch!! Both went on to win a class and another come 2nd in the same class that had 6 others in it then went on to go champion and reserve me and my family where shocked!! We did go and have a word with the show organiser but sadly nothing was said or done about it!!

Which is my point EXACTLY. The horses are not going to stop being competed so if they are in discomfort they should be allowed to have bute. But some are mechanically/bridle lame anyway. My horse does a strange hop sometimes if I use to much leg and hand at the same time. Doesn't mean he is lame though.
 
No but it may well let them keep going and risk further injury :confused: :( It is an anti-inflammatory analgesic and IMO should absolutely be banned in competition. I don't think it is fair to mask pain in order to make your horse continue :rolleyes:

Have a read of Ginny Leng's autobiography (I'm sure it's hers) about when she exercises a horse who (unbeknown to her) had been given bute. It has a catastrophic breakdown and is pts. Her argument about the use of bute is very persuasive.

There is a similar tragic account in HRH Princess Anne's autobiography about competing a horse (I think it was doublet) who had been given bute without her knowledge. It is clear from her account that it was a dangerous situation for both her and the horse, it ultimitely lead to the horse injuring himself and being PTS.

I am also disturbed that people are condoning cheating. Taking propanolol is clearly cheating, it acts to calm you down, therefore it is certainly going to give an unfair advantage in a sport where remaining cool and calm is an advantage!

Disgraceful!
 
I am also disturbed that people are condoning cheating. Taking propanolol is clearly cheating, it acts to calm you down, therefore it is certainly going to give an unfair advantage in a sport where remaining cool and calm is an advantage!

Disgraceful!

You're wasting your breath though, some people appear far too blinkered as long as they are still getting what they want :(

Please note a debate is not congratulating like minded people for being 'honest' and wishing there were more like that and declaring that anyone with a differing opinion needs to 'get real' and stop being 'high and mighty' :rolleyes: That's just ignorant.

Everything I have stated in this thread has been fact and with degrees in both biochemistry and medical diagnostics I have some idea of how NSAID's work (and why phenylbutazone is very much a 'last resort' drug in humans due to its side effects) or clearly stated as personal opinion.

But of course it doesn't matter if horses are going to be competed anyway, does it?!
 
Just an update on Bute from the BS perspective....since April 2011 it is cpnsidered a controlled substabce meaning that a disensation needs to be obtained to use it in competition. This is inline with all FEI disciplines.
 
Just an update on Bute from the BS perspective....since April 2011 it is cpnsidered a controlled substabce meaning that a disensation needs to be obtained to use it in competition. This is inline with all FEI disciplines.

It's on the Prohibited substance list
http://www.feicleansport.org/2011_Equine_Prohibited_List.pdf

and not listed as one of the exemptions on the FEI Clean Sport site
http://www.feicleansport.org/faqs.html?#link6

:confused: Can I ask where your update came from as I'm confused now (it doesn't take much :rolleyes: :) )
 
It's definitely banned for the FEI - that's what the all the fuss was about awhile back, when they changed the rules then changed them back tout suite.

But there is also a Controlled Substance list, which a lot of FNs still use for jumping, which allows legal limits with proper records.
 
You're wasting your breath though, some people appear far too blinkered as long as they are still getting what they want :(

Please note a debate is not congratulating like minded people for being 'honest' and wishing there were more like that and declaring that anyone with a differing opinion needs to 'get real' and stop being 'high and mighty' :rolleyes: That's just ignorant.

Everything I have stated in this thread has been fact and with degrees in both biochemistry and medical diagnostics I have some idea of how NSAID's work (and why phenylbutazone is very much a 'last resort' drug in humans due to its side effects) or clearly stated as personal opinion.

But of course it doesn't matter if horses are going to be competed anyway, does it?!

What people seem to be forgetting is that if they make the choice to compete under rules, whether that be BS, BE, BD, football, athletics, cycling, rugby or whatever you agree to abide by those rules. If you cannot accept those rules you either follow them whilst lobbying for change from within or you compete in a different sphere.

Are the people who are saying it is ok to use prohibited substances also going to say that it is ok for a heavyweight boxer to use steroids? Or would they be arguing that Dwain Chambers should have gone unpunished for using banned substances.

If you don't like the rules don't compete under them, but people shouldn't come on here condoning and defending cheating :eek:
 
Found the BEF info. on controlled substances

http://www.bef.co.uk/downloads/National Equine Therapeutic Use Exemptions 2011.pdf

Not very easy to get a National Equine Therapeutic Use Exemption then.

Quote from BEF site

It is important to note that the new system, in line with the FEI, adopts their prohibited substances list in its entirety, including a ban on Non-Steroidal Anti Inflammatory Drugs (NSAIDs). Under the new National system, these will be classed as Controlled Medications, which, if found in a horse's sample during competition, will result in a violation. BEFAR is supported and funded by all BEF Member Bodies and UK Anti Doping (UKAD).

Kat - I think because I 'grew up' competing (not horse related) it is just second nature to me :) Cases like the little Romanian gymnast Raduan at the 2000 olympics are heartbreaking though :( (eliminated and stripped of her gold medal after her coach gave her a cold remedy)
 
Re the cold remedy, Canada had a rower disqualified for a cold remedy the team doctor signed off on. :(

Re the rules, obviously they are there to be followed. Outside competition it is personal choice and must
 
Found the BEF info. on controlled substances

http://www.bef.co.uk/downloads/National Equine Therapeutic Use Exemptions 2011.pdf

Not very easy to get a National Equine Therapeutic Use Exemption then.

Quote from BEF site



Kat - I think because I 'grew up' competing (not horse related) it is just second nature to me :) Cases like the little Romanian gymnast Raduan at the 2000 olympics are heartbreaking though :( (eliminated and stripped of her gold medal after her coach gave her a cold remedy)

Oh yes there is definitely a difference between intentionally taking banned substances with a view to enhancing performance and accidental ingestion of a banned substance for a genuine reason. But there has to be an absolute rule or else it would be abused.

At the end of the day if you are competing under rules you abide by them, to deliberately flout them, whether it be taking beta blockers for migraines or keeping your horse sound with bute, then unless you get the relevant dispensation you are cheating and are open to punishment by the relevant body.
 
Interesting to note that BRC follow FEI regs:

G17.1: Acceptable Levels
Ponies or horses taking part in a competition must be healthy and compete on their inherent merits. The use of Prohibited Substances might influence a pony’s/horse’s performance or mask an underlying health problem and could falsely affect the outcome of a competition. BRC follows FEI rules regarding substances.
 
I don't compete so I have no idea about thisbut I do have a (possibly) daft question.

If bute is a no-no for a competing horse, why is a steroid injection ok? I thought they just did the same thing i.e. reduce inflammation/pain but by different methods?

As for humans taking meds & being banned for it, I think that should always be on a case by case basis, but of course that does rely on there being a culture in sports where somebody can stand up & say yes I have to take x, y & z because of this illness without being whispered about & pointed at if the other competitors find out. But if there's a proven medical reason & records why they HAVE to take something from the banned list on a regular basis then I'm sure they feel their lives are messed up enough, why should they have a pleasure/hobby/livelihood taken away from them as well?

Taking beta blockers for migraines because you have to do that to be able to function like a normal human being is worlds away from a totally health person taking a performance enhancing drug for no other reason that wanting to win.
 
Can I just throw in the question of denerving and competing a denerved horse? Surely this must be as bad if not worse than using bute as it's a permanent inability for the horse to feel and show pain?
 
Steroid injections are not ok as such. Cortisone which is often used for hock injections is a controlled medication. It is therefore allowed if prescribed by the vet for treatment but it should not be present if tested during an event unless an exemption has been made i.e. to treat a skin condition.

As said giving a horse the occasional bute to fend off a few aches is very different to giving it every day. I am very wary of riding anything on bute and I would want to know why it was getting it how much and how often before i made a call whether to get on board. I was advised by my vet that my old boy could be ridden on a daily bute but i made the decision that at that point he could be retired to the field as he was field sound and I didn't want to cause him liver damage etc from long term bute use. He had about 3 years in the field before the lameness took over again and he was PTS late last year.

Under all affiliated bodies bute is now banned so no competing horses should be on bute although i suspect several are and the riders get away with it as testing is so lax! Although testing is meant to get more rigourous through the levels from now on if news reports are to be believed...
 
Can I just throw in the question of denerving and competing a denerved horse? Surely this must be as bad if not worse than using bute as it's a permanent inability for the horse to feel and show pain?

I would never ever ever jump a denerved horse as they simply don't know where their feet are which is so dangerous its untrue. I might do a dressage test but doubtful affiliated and nothing to that high a level as again the likelyhood of tripping over feet is drastically increased!
 
I would never ever ever jump a denerved horse as they simply don't know where their feet are which is so dangerous its untrue. I might do a dressage test but doubtful affiliated and nothing to that high a level as again the likelyhood of tripping over feet is drastically increased!

I agree. A friend was suggested to have her horse denerved by her vet, but she is too scared to do it, although she would never jump him again anyway.
 
It's on the Prohibited substance list
http://www.feicleansport.org/2011_Equine_Prohibited_List.pdf

and not listed as one of the exemptions on the FEI Clean Sport site
http://www.feicleansport.org/faqs.html?#link6

:confused: Can I ask where your update came from as I'm confused now (it doesn't take much :rolleyes: :) )

If you look on the FEI Clean Sport database it shows Phenylbutazone as a Controlled Medication NOT a Prohibited Subtance.

Http://prohibitedsubstancesdatabase.feicleansport.org/list.php?q=phenylbutazone
 
My post above should say not a Banned Substance btw. All meds on that DB are considered Prohibited i think.....just Controlled Medication canbe used with an autorisarion whereas Banned substances are a no-no regardless.

It is bl**dy confusing though !
 
My post above should say not a Banned Substance btw. All meds on that DB are considered Prohibited i think.....just Controlled Medication canbe used with an autorisarion whereas Banned substances are a no-no regardless.

It is bl**dy confusing though !

I'm glad I'm such a crap rider that I'm unlikely ever to compete under FEI rules anyway :D
 
Last edited:
Top