Rambo
Well-Known Member
It's not just FEI rules though...that's the ppint. BS has now adopted the FEI rules so if you jump BS you are bound by the same.
BS rules on lame horses?
- Thread starter colcob
- Start date
popsdosh
Well-Known Member
No a controlled substance still cannot show up in a sample in competition.It was brought about to make drugs available to vets for therapy between competitions all banned substances are barred full stop as could be picked up on a spot check sampling at home.Which can happen with top horses.
Oldenburg
Well-Known Member
I see it as if a horse is lame enough to warrant giving it bute the horse should not be ridden /competed as its causing more problems down the line making it feel better than it is and adding to the problem!! Showing is all about confirmation and if a horse is lame why try and mask it for a rosette to me its not worth it and plus it cheating!!
colcob
Member
Think the horse is the one mentioned earlier in the thread, just googled its rider, seems she is more controversial than the horse is... according to the Daily Mail anyway! I am even more shocked now than I was when I saw her riding!
dieseldog
Well-Known Member
There is denerving and denerving, not all denerving results in a lack of feeling so that the horse does not know where its feet are. Lots and lots of 3/4* eventers and GP horses have been denerved.
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
And, to be fair, even with a digital palmar neurectomy, only the back third of the foot is affected, so the horse is perfectly capable of feeling where its feet are. "High nerving" was a different kettle of fish but it's not practised now. (And before anyone tells me there is someone out there doing it, you can probably say that for any illegal/unethical procedure.) That said, horses with digital neurectomies are banned from competition. The problem is there is no definitive way to tell and I'm sure in some cases horses get sold on without anyone being the wiser. I have certainly known horses that jumped at home after the procedure and didn't have a problem, although I'm not sure that would be my choice.
Horses who have had a PSD neurectomy/fasciotomy are also banned from competition. For what that's worth. I was a bit surprised to see the article in H & H the other week which, while it didn't come right out and say that horses returned to high level competition after this surgery, it implied it. Which is, I guess, true enough.
Horses who have had a PSD neurectomy/fasciotomy are also banned from competition. For what that's worth. I was a bit surprised to see the article in H & H the other week which, while it didn't come right out and say that horses returned to high level competition after this surgery, it implied it. Which is, I guess, true enough.
Santa_Claus
Well-Known Member
admittedly only experience I have had with denerved horses were those that had digital neurectomies both done good 10+ years ago. Will freely admit I didn't realise it was possible to denerve only part of the foot which is a different kettle of fish so to speak. you learn something new and all that! 
SpottedCat
Well-Known Member
I could name you at least 2 team event horses which have had it done. If you ask BE direct (as some poor soul did on their forum), they will tell you it is against the rules and you cannot compete a horse which has had it done (correct as per FEI rules). However, the notion that no-one involved with GB team horses knew about these horses having the op is ludicrous....usually you'll find the 'public line' is the horse has time off for something nondescript and unprovable like a 'virus' or 'corns'. It is one rule for pros and another for the rest of the membership in this case. Since the op leaves virtually no scar, it is pretty much unprovable!
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
Well, yes, of course. The same is true for digital neurectomies. I personally know for sure one horse that jumped Internationally after having one and I don't know that many International horses. 
All that said, though, we are at least partially having a conversation about ethics. One of the arguments people have made FOR having legal limits for bute is if you don't allow that people will think up things that are MUCH worse.
Btw, I'm not sure if it's still the case, but the FEi rules used to say something about not using/doing anything to the horse to affect its ability to feel pain or to change its temperament artificially in any way. So technically calmers are not allowed under the spirit of the law. Which isn't to say I personally think that's how it should be, just that, ETHICALLY speaking, there is really only a difference in degree between buting a horse and giving it devil's claw, or sedating a horse vs giving it a calmer, not a difference in kind. Of course using something that tests is a different situation. The problem is now, neurectomies don't test . . .
All that said, though, we are at least partially having a conversation about ethics. One of the arguments people have made FOR having legal limits for bute is if you don't allow that people will think up things that are MUCH worse.
Btw, I'm not sure if it's still the case, but the FEi rules used to say something about not using/doing anything to the horse to affect its ability to feel pain or to change its temperament artificially in any way. So technically calmers are not allowed under the spirit of the law.
Which isn't to say I personally think that's how it should be, just that, ETHICALLY speaking, there is really only a difference in degree between buting a horse and giving it devil's claw, or sedating a horse vs giving it a calmer, not a difference in kind. Of course using something that tests is a different situation. The problem is now, neurectomies don't test . . .
SpottedCat
Well-Known Member
Btw, I'm not sure if it's still the case, but the FEi rules used to say something about not using/doing anything to the horse to affect its ability to feel pain or to change its temperament artificially in any way. So technically calmers are not allowed under the spirit of the law.
Should calmers that don't test really be viewed in that way? Because the ones that don't test also don't work universally, principally I think because they address a dietary deficiency - so if your horse isn't deficient in say, magnesium, then it has no effect on them. So really what you're doing is leveling the playing field when compared to a horse which has no dietary deficiency. Those that work universally (to a greater or lesser degree - like the different effects sedalin has on different horses) because they have a sedatory effect (like valerian), do test.
To put it another way, if I analysed my grazing/forage/feed and it showed up that the diet was deficient in X, and I then add X, which has the knock on effect of improving that particular horse's performance, is that 'cheating' - or is it optimising the performance of that horse by giving it a balanced diet?
popsdosh
Well-Known Member
The FEI have a total ban on calmers not just the ones that can be detected is you are seen administering one you are breaking the rules.
This magnesium thing is all very strange as people could supplement their horses diet very cheaply as I do with my cattle ,however as I know from work with cattle the more you feed the more of a problem you can create if the animal is not deficient.This is caused because the magnesium is stored in the long bones and if you feed to excess this then inhibits the animals ability to utilise what is there ,it is a very complicated balancing act.I personally would have a blood test to check levels before I started giving a horse magnesium for a behavioural problem .
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
See, I would say optimising, but under the idea that you shouldn't be giving your horse anything that changes it's innate temperament/sensitivity, pushing a tube of something down a horse's throat half an hour before a test is pretty clearly an attempt to do just that. Look at all the people on here wanting something that works but doesn't test.
It is, after all, moot. I'm just saying there is a point of view that it's a sliding scale, balancing what is therapeutic and what is covering something pathological - or inconvenient - up. There will always be people who think the rules are too harsh, and those who think they're not harsh enough. Plus, we are limited by science as you can't control what you can't detect.
It is, after all, moot. I'm just saying there is a point of view that it's a sliding scale, balancing what is therapeutic and what is covering something pathological - or inconvenient - up. There will always be people who think the rules are too harsh, and those who think they're not harsh enough. Plus, we are limited by science as you can't control what you can't detect.
SpottedCat
Well-Known Member
And where do you stop?! Giving gastrogard is perfectly legal under all rules.....but it clearly enhances the performance of a horse which has/has had ulcers comparative to its performance with ulcers.....
spookypony
Well-Known Member
See, I would say optimising, but under the idea that you shouldn't be giving your horse anything that changes it's innate temperament/sensitivity, pushing a tube of something down a horse's throat half an hour before a test is pretty clearly an attempt to do just that. Look at all the people on here wanting something that works but doesn't test.
All good points about this aspect of the issue. I would say that addressing a dietary deficiency is not the same as taking a performance-enhancing drug. Regarding magnesium specifically, it's often argued that many areas in the UK are deficient in it, and this explains why so many people appear to see an effect when they use it as a "calmer". I started feeding my pony magnesium on the advice of a nutritionist, due to a suspected shortage in the low-quality, soaked hay he was getting in his restricted grazing paddock at the time. Yes, one of his symptoms was that he appeared even more tense and nervous than usual, but that was in the field, not especially under saddle. The main effect I've seen since supplementing magnesium has actually been an improvement in hoof quality. I'll be getting a forage analysis done this spring, to check that the levels are correct.
I assume the essential difference that pertains to this whole argument is that magnesium is a required nutrient for a healthy horse, whereas substances such as bute are not.
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BBH
Well-Known Member
If its the person I think then we also were shocked at her riding in the GP at Crofton, her horse even knocked over a steward cos she couldn't steer / control it.
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
One other point re what people may or may not be doing, I think people might be surprised how many people get caught and fined or even suspended and we never know a thing about it. I was reading the FEI list one day for some reason and was surprised to see more than one name I knew on it, when I'd had no idea. In one case the rider had been suspended - I'm sure if anyone thought about it at all, they would have assumed the horse was lame or the rider on holiday or something similarly benign.
Of course that doesn't mean anything in the great scheme of things but I do think some people assume no one ever gets caught, judging by the very few occasions it happens to someone high enough profile to be news.
Of course that doesn't mean anything in the great scheme of things but I do think some people assume no one ever gets caught, judging by the very few occasions it happens to someone high enough profile to be news.
Birker2020
Well-Known Member
My friend didn't even know she was taking an 'illegal drug' for months until she read the pamplet with the medication the one day and it said it made you calmer. She had no idea.
She even wore a 'medic alert' bracelet which said she was taking propranalol (apparently it can interact with some medications and a GA)! If she'd have been knocked out whilst competing BSJA and the paramedic had seen the bracelet (which is the idea as paramedics and doctors are meant to look for such things) and it had got back to the officials she would have been in trouble, but she had no idea all the time she'd been wearing it that she was taking a banned substance. But then she was only competing BN and not the Olympics I think it only came to light when she read the rule book the one day and happened to flick onto the page about banned substances and saw what it said. By then she'd stopped taking it anyway. My friend is as honest as the day is long - she once got prize money and a rossy when she was called into the arena riding on a ticket, and as she was embarrassed at the time went up to the judges box after the class to confess and happily handed over the prize money, and much to her disgust had to hand back the beautiful rossette too which she'd hoped she could keep as she'd been so honest! All she got was a rollocking off the judge as obviously the first unplaced horse should have got up the line and got placed even though it was his fault he'd announced her to come into the arena!
I think common sense has to come into play. In my friends case it did nothing to make her calm which is why she had to see the hypnotist for her competition nerves. If it had have been a top show jumper competing for thousands of pounds rather than a riding club competitor jumping a spooky horse for kicks in order to win the possibly of a rosette then there is a big difference.
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Birker2020
Well-Known Member
I'm glad I'm such a crap rider that I'm unlikely ever to compete under FEI rules anyway
Me too.
As an aside my vet is more than happy for me to continue riding my horse with either bute on a daily basis or as and when when the time comes that steroid injections no longer do it for him. He is only 14. My friends 14.2hh pony had a bute a day for three years and it never did it any harm and it died of old age aged 42!
I really can't understand why bute it is such a big deal to so many people. My horse has received three lots of tildren, joint injections, steroid injections and adequan. He has been kept on an initial course of box rest and then ridden all on vets advice. Like the vets say - spavin horses are best ridden. At the moment he gets by on steroid although I am contemplating hock fusion with ethanol. He's had over £3.2K spent on him in vets bills to throw everything at him to help him as much as possible. I haven't ever given him bute to mask lameness. It has helped him on the odd ocassion when I have jumped on a firm surface or when he has run around the field and his arthritis has flared up. He is comfortable. He runs in the field, he rears, and spins and plays with his friend. He has a fantastic quality of life.
If he gets to the stage where he needs bute in order to maintain his comfort on a daily basis then that is what I will give him. Like my vet says its either that (when it comes) or throw out in the field and never ride again. I know which he would prefer and I know which I would prefer. Period.
Some people don't have oodles of money, time, room or money for a second horse and I couldn't contemplate putting him to sleep so I could get another horse as I love him so much.
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diggerbez
Well-Known Member
Me too.
As an aside my vet is more than happy for me to continue riding my horse with either bute on a daily basis or as and when when the time comes that steroid injections no longer do it for him. He is only 14. My friends 14.2hh pony had a bute a day for three years and it never did it any harm and it died of old age aged 42!
I really can't understand why bute it is such a big deal to so many people. My horse has received three lots of tildren, joint injections, steroid injections and adequan. He has been kept on an initial course of box rest and then ridden all on vets advice. Like the vets say - spavin horses are best ridden. At the moment he gets by on steroid although I am contemplating hock fusion with ethanol. He's had over £3.2K spent on him in vets bills to throw everything at him to help him as much as possible. I haven't ever given him bute to mask lameness. It has helped him on the odd ocassion when I have jumped on a firm surface or when he has run around the field and his arthritis has flared up. He is comfortable. He runs in the field, he rears, and spins and plays with his friend. He has a fantastic quality of life.
If he gets to the stage where he needs bute in order to maintain his comfort on a daily basis then that is what I will give him. Like my vet says its either that (when it comes) or throw out in the field and never ride again. I know which he would prefer and I know which I would prefer. Period.
Some people don't have oodles of money, time, room or money for a second horse and I couldn't contemplate putting him to sleep so I could get another horse as I love him so much.
i am sure that you do love your horse very much and whilst i personally would not be happy with regular bute use (it can cause liver failure- its happened to a few horses that i know and its not pleasant i can assure you) i can understand that if it makes an oldie comfortable then you might want to take the risk to minimise joint pain....but i have to say that i don't understand why you would jump a horse with arthritis- let alone on firm ground....but thats just my opinion.... if i had a horse that needed bute everyday then i don't think i would ride at all.... (i know that you personally are not at this stage yet)