BSJA International Selection Commitee???

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steelmagnolia

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Am I the only one who smells a rat? How can this be an ubiased group of selectors, when John Whittaker is still competing himself, as is his entire family. Steve Smith will obviously be rooting for his brother Robert or Tim Gredley who he trains.

What about those riders/owners who aren't related or in business with these selectors, will they be given a fair crack at team selection and getting to the big foriegn shows?

The BSJA are desperatley scratching their heads trying to encourage new owners into the sport. This has got to be the most off putting, worrying news to anyone who is considering investing in a show jumping prospect. There is now not an equal playing field as far as I am concerned, with Clair Whittaker in her role as Chairman of the International Commitee and husband John Whittaker in his role as selector, the family has gone from a Dynasty to a Dictatorship!

People in the selectors roles need to be INPARTIAL, and in an organisation which is funded by the members, voted into these roles too.

Very interested to hear other thoughts on this matter please.
 
Oh how I agree it certainly does make you wonder and the word nepotism springs to mind too!!! I read this yesterday and was wondering if anyone would post on the subject as this was instantly my thoughts, there was a post on here recently about pony clubs and it just goes to show that pony clubs are the thin end of the wedge!!
 
It used to be the case that top class experienced riders were on the selection committee - they are after all the people who see most of the likely team contenders. It was, and I assume will again be the case that they leave the room when their own selection or that of their immediate connections was to be discussed. Clare Whitaker (note not Whittaker - their fame does not appear to have made sufficient impression on you to be able to spell the name correctly) is the chairman of the Performance Development Committee, and as such is not directly involved in selection of the senior team.
 
http://www.bsja.co.uk/news.html?newsID=1277

"Clare Whitaker is the chairman of the Performance Development Committee, and as such is not directly involved in selection of the senior team".


She is listed as Chairman of the International Committee on the BSJA webiste, follow link above. And no for your information their "fame" has not made a sufficient impression on me! However thier riding ability has.

SJFAN, showjumpers may have selected their own teams in the past, I'm pretty sure the same old faces competed on the same old teams time and time again as a result. However, we need to encourage new owners, young riders and make the sport attainable for more than just the select few.

There is big money at stake to be earnt from the sale of horses who have competed on International Teams (millions). The Smiths and the Whitakers both make the bulk of their living out of horse sales, not prize money! Those mentioned will be biased, whichever way you want to look at it. There is a clear conflict of interest and us such they should not have been offered this position.
 
Dear Steel Magnolia.

If you would like to PM me your contact details I am more than happy to discuss this with you directly over the weekend.

In the meantime may I please remind you of the seriousness in posting any defamatory comments that could be seen as having a negative effect on a persons reputation.

BSJA Communications
 
Ooh that was quick! It's a bit like BB but far more interesting. Can this conversation continue online instead of pm's though, just for clarity? Now that would be interesting.
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Just to add I do not agree with defamatory post's
 
i agree Freshman!! anyway there was nothing defamatory in suggesting there might be a conflict of interests because even if there isnt, no-one will ever believe it.
and you know SJFAN that i think you are the oracle where showjumping is concerned but it seems to me there is little point in having a selector who cannot be present when their own selection or that of their immediate family is being discussed?
and perhaps that system is flawed even though i agree that the riders potentially know the most about other riders because the system does not work like that for eventing and look at the difference in medal totals for those disciplines. correct me if i am wrong but i do not believe that we have won a gold medal showjumpingat world or olympic level since 1984........
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Dear BSJA_Comms.

Thank you for the offer of PM'ing you to discuss this issue, however I firmly believe that this subject should stay in the public domain.

It is absolutley not my intention to be defamatory on here and I can't see where I have. As Lucretia pointed out I am simply highligting there is a conflict of interests here. Those people should not have been put in the position, where their integretory can be brought into question in the first place!

Politicians have to declare any personal interests they may have with organisations from which they may directly or indirectly benefit from. In this instance comparisons can be drawn. The BSJA is a governing body, with a fee paying membership who are intitled to an opinion/vote!
 
Steelmagnolia - Totally agree! This makes a mockery of the whole situation but unfortunately it has gone on for years one way or another - 'you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours', so to speak. I also agree this should not be hidden behind pm's it should be a topic FOR ALL to discuss and have their opinions on. There will be those among us who have had a conflict of interests with one of the named parties or the other and who MAY have a horse suitable or be suitable themselves for selection at some point - they will stand no chance whatsoever because a block will be put against them. Once again it is corrupt and unfair. Like him or not, at least Mike Florence didn't have any children or family competing, he judged people on merit because his goal was to win medals and yes, he may have had his favourites but he always pulled a rabbit out of the bag when needed! We pay our subscriptions every year and we should have our say and if that means discussing it opn an open forum then sobeit.
 
I had failed to note that Clare W is now heads the International as well as Performance Development Commitee. The actual selectors are: Derek Ricketts, Duncan Inglis, Steven Smith and John Whitaker. I'd point out that all BSJA Executive Board members (some elected by the general membership) do have to declare their interests and connections within the sport. In an ideal world, the selectors would not still be in contention for team places, but I think we have a dearth of sufficiently informed people who see enough international and national classes to make the decisions. Years ago, when I was travelling a lot, it was suggested to me (not by a BSJA Executive Bd member I hasten to add, that I would be well-placed to be a selector. However I would have said that I probably didn't see enough of the CSI 3* level to do the job as well as I would like.
The Eventing selectors are indeed riders who have retired from top-level competition - of course top-flight Eventers mostly retire at an earlier age than SJers.
Different riders have made the Championship teams in the past and do now. No selectors will ever be able to keep everybody happy all of the time. Naturally I too want to see up & coming riders given their chances, and they need good and understanding owners to help them get to and stay at the top.
Lucretia: While our SJers have not won Olympic medals since since 1984, it's not really fair to compare their record with that of the Eventers, as there is much less strength of opposition from other nations, though this is perhaps changing. GB had an unbroken run of Olympic show jumping medals until 1976. This was at the time when the Olympics were officially for "amateur" sportsmen. Those as old as I am may remember the farcical situation that George Hobbs could not be a team member because he had for a short while been a pro race jockey. In the mid 1970s, top British riders were made to be classed as professionals whether or not they wanted to be. The late great Caroline Bradley was one who was extremely upset about this. No other countries followed GB's example (GB was pressurised by Prince Philip) and our Olympic effort was severely hampered - it was far from a level playing field. John and Michael were just young enough to escape this, and were members of the team which won Silver in the substitute Olympics in 1980 - no major countries in equestrianism having gone to Moscow, and were also in the Silver Medal team in 1984, along with Steven Smith and Tim Grubb. In 1988, on a surface which did not suit a number of horses, David Broome just missed what would have been his 3rd individual medal from 5 appearances. In 1996 Geoff Billington was in a jump-off for the individual medals, and was unlucky to miss out. Much fuss was made about the fact that GB did not qualify a team for 2004, overlooking the fact that qualification was a recent innovation, and the system penalises the countries in the Western European zone, by far the strongest of all. Nick Skelton and Robert Smith both came close to winning medals there. Last year we were so unlucky that Perppermill could not jump in the Team 1st round - I'd have to agree that Portofino was a questionable choice at the time, and Russel brought in at the last moment as he had been for WEG in 2006, was too unpredictable to be anyone's 1st choice for a championship team.
Steelmagniolia: I have realised for many years that almost all leading SJers, not just the Whitakers and the Smiths, make their livings from dealing and training rather than from prize money.
 
SJFAN your experience and memories of by gone years is unquestionable. However, I am more concerened with the present and future of our sport. Times have changed we have instant computerised results, live streaming, satellite sports channels etc. We can all get to see and stay informed with what is going on and who is winning and leaving the fences up.

I believe this issue is one that needs to be discussed openly. Judging from the post in the middle of the night from an 'alleged BSJA commentator' the powers that be would prefer it stay firmly under raps.

I totally agree with HorseMad-007, it is impossible to approach this subject with the people concerend as one could easily be black listed as a result of speaking about this!

I feel that this is actually an issue of National Importance as we are approaching London 2012 and benefiting from Lottery money. I wouldn't be suprised if the National Press picks up the story.
 
I too am concerned with the present and future of the sport. Video streaming (wish we had it from major British shows) is a wonderful tool, but too often at present the quality is not good enough - it hiccoughs! I've always believed it more important to see what happens rather than read results. Sadly we no longer have many reliable journalists reporting. You can watch a very lucky undeserved clear and a very unlucky 4 faults. Not many CSI 3* or 2* shows are shown on line or by satellite TV.
 
SJFAN we are going to have to agree to disagree here but the point is that eventing selectors are RETIRED competitors for a strart. and there is always an excuse why the showjumpers dont perform. yours is above but s often as not it has been we dont have the horse power or what ever.
there are plenty of people who go to shows on a regular basis who could advise selectors if they were asked, any journalist for example, but of course what would they know having not actually pointed at a 1.60 fence
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i agree re mike florence by the way who ever said that i have met him recently and thought he wa a good bloke.
 
That's why I made the point that in general Eventers retire earlier and we don't have many retired SJers who see enough current jumping to be selectors. Also there are too few reliable journalists on the international and national circuit - the best imo was Alan Smith, who covered all 3 Olympic disciplines and he's just retired. Having been at many major team championships and World Cup Finals I can assure you that most of the journalists spend a lot of time NOT watching what's happening. Obviously I don't mean you,who I know to be young and enthusiastic!
 
Getting back to the original post, isnt there a team of INDEPENDENT people, the likes of Mike Florence and Derek Ricketts, ie, not those with a vested interest in competing and training people,to be Selectors? I will watch 2009 Team Selections with interest!! Just glad I no longer have to pay the BSJA a membership fee, and yes, I think a discussion out in the open for those of you who ARE members, should take place.
JC
 
Steelmagnolia I too would like to know who's decision this was! To my knowledge I know of no voting system at all!
However, one would hope that due to our recent lack of medals, this 'selector' system will only benefit team GB, and of course only time will tell.
One thing is for sure though, it certainly isn't good for the sport, especially with the current state of affairs that owners are already showing concerns, and these are the people the Bsja should be protecting the most!
 
I dont think John Whitaker would be so stupid as to put himself on a team if he wasnt worthy, and if he puts his son on he is one of our most succesful riders at the moment so who can say anything about that, I know his wife Clare from the pony job and to be honest considering the ponies go and win gold every year of which she picks the team, I think they should have made her a selector, I can see how it looks to people but unless new people are prepared to give up their time and go on these commitees and push to get these jobs it will be the ones who are there who get picked.
 
I have read your comments with interest after posting mine and after giving the matter some thought I would say that if you are good enough and have consistent results at the fiven level there is absolutely no reason why you should be ignored! However, I am sure those who know and also those who have posted above also know that is your face fits it helps - if it doesn't forget it. I would say that the only persons worthy of a place on that commitee are Derek (as Chef d'Equipe) and Duncan as he apparently has no vested interest, although I would imagine his Christmas card list will be growing throughout 2009. Neither Clare, John or Steven should have a seat on the board as their decisions are too easily influenced by family and pupils and I hate to say money!
 
As someone with a vested interest in the horses selected to compete, I feel I am a worthy candidate for this job. How do I apply?
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Godiva don't waste your time - unless of course your name is Whitaker or Smith! However, if not you may be just the candidate the MAJORITY OF MEMBERS ON THIS FORUM are looking for!
 
Are you not aware that Duncan is one of the Performance Squad i.e. one of those considered most likely to be chosen for 5* events? His best friend is another leading contender.
 
He also has Mathew Sampson as stable jockey. Which is great but mark my words. It is the fortunate few in these positions that will always get the oppportunities to move forward & into the next ranks. The first the membership knows about any decisions are when they are reported on HHO or the BSJA website. Personally I want to see more clarity right through from ponies to Olympic selection. To who ever made the remark about the pony team being so succesful, trust me. GB could have sent 5 from at least 25 pony riders into Europe & won the Gold medal 99 times out of 100. We are streets ahead of the rest of Europe in that division. One of the reasons for this is no other Country in Europe takes ponies as serious business. It means bugger all to them.
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I am fully aware he has Matt Sampson as his stable jockey but we are talking SENIOR and at TOP level (as stated formerly Samsung Super League) not really a place for Matt at the moment. I grant that Duncan does have a position on the Performance Squad at the moment he does not appear to have the horse power (Nations Cup Hickstead) sorry Duncan! Also, there are others who are far more worthy of representing this country at a 5* event than him (again apologies to Duncan) and I am sure Tim Gredley and Robert Smith (pushed by Steven) would be amongst those. Not that I feel that is a fair decision either. Still, as I stated earlier - I am sure Duncan will not be short of buddies this year! The long and the short of it is this sport is not a level playing field, it consists of cheats, people who will walk over anyone for their own gains and quite frankly would squeal on their own mother if they thought they were going to make from it. Until the BSJA cleans up its act, appoints an independent body (not sure how this would be done with little knowledge of the sport) or is decent enough to accept that only those with results worthy of a position on our teams should be considered I am afraid those minions (us as members) paying their wages and supporting their cause have no choice but to follow like sheep and line their pockets.
 
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The long and the short of it is this sport is not a level playing field, it consists of cheats, people who will walk over anyone for their own gains and quite frankly would squeal on their own mother if they thought they were going to make from it.

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Unfortunalty you have just described the real world, we do not live in the utopian ideal. What you have written above is just human nature and it is never going to change. The BSJA is just a mirror image of society as a whole.
 
I can't believe you're comparing Tim Gredley and Duncan Inglis in the same breath to be quite honest
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Duncan is one of the most highly regarded producers of horses in this country and also across the continent. no, he doesn't have the unlimited horsepower that some have...but that's because he doesn't have the bottomless pot of cash behind him that some others (Tim Gredley) do. Duncan has supplied many of the top horses competing on the circuit today...the distinction being he has to sell most of them to stay in business. He is a dealer first, and a competitive rider second. He is also a very highly rated coach and knows more about SJ'ing than most of his age group.

To say that his performance in the Hickstead Superleague showed his deficiencies is a little harsh too...his horse suffered a busted blood vessel which meant it was well below par. You might be interested to know he also jumped the Superleague at Acchen two years earlier...and did rather well
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The real problem is the state of the sport in the UK because if it was viable here then International Selection would not be such an issue as people could demonstrate their worth here in front of everyone.

The BSJA have accomodated the 'weekend riders' to generate income at the sacrifice of the professionals who are trying to make a living and for owners to get some kind of return by producing horses. The standard of the sport has dropped dramatically over the last decade and with ever increasing costs it is declining rapidly with no new money coming in and little chance now (does anyone know if Hickstead has found a sponsor?)

There are to many narrow minded people in the sport, and not just at the BSJA, who are only looking at self interest and not the bigger picture and before they know it, the professional sport will disapear from the UK (but perhaps people realise this already?).
 
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