BSJA Showjumping, Problems with 5yo - should I sell or persevere???

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tabitha12

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I have a 5yo warmblood, jumped a few British Novices on her (never gone clear - either had 1 down or a stop). She is very forward going and quite sensitive. When I got her she liked to jump off a long stride and quite quickly. This is ok except occasionally when she's got a "stupid" head on, she will decide to leap left and run out (so you can't really trust her 100% to go and jump and leave her alone. So, I have been trying (following advice from 2 professional showjumpers - 1 of whom has ridden her at home), to try to get her to come in off a rhythm, get in a bit deeper etc etc. This was ok except she then didn't want to make much of a shape and would still feel desperate to run left on occasions. Last weekend, we went to a show, she'd worked well at home all week and then in the collecting ring she had got a "stupid" head on and would even jump a cross pole without crashing through it. Jumping the warm up oxer, she anihilated it
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Having read some other posts on here, it's as if she is only confident when jumping in her way - when I try to make her do it my way, it all falls apart. Obviously jumping in her way is ok in the smaller classes but she'll never cope with the spreads, combis etc in the bigger classes if she continues this way.
There is nothing physically wrong with her - I'm taking her unaffiliated to school her round this weekend so that I can hopefully give her a bit of confidence if that is what the problem is. She can be strong around a course but backs off a stronger bit so I don't think that is the answer. I wish I know what I can do to sort out this silliness with her - she's quite a spooky horse but it's silliness and not nervousness as she is quite a laid back character generally. I would love to send her to a professional but cannot afford to - it's down to me to sort out the problems or sell her. I'm in a real dilemma because when she goes well and I can trust her to jump without skipping out, I love jumping her. Any advice or ideas if you have experienced similar problems would be great
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I am no expert but just wondered if their is much difference in how she rides at home and out at a comp? She is still pretty young and being out and about might just be blowing her brains to the point where its just to much to cope with. I bet their will be someone on here who can suggest certain fences to encourage her to take off a bit deeper.
 
I benefit from professional training. I don't have loads of money to throw at it, but it makes a huge difference to me and my horse.

If the only option is to sell the horse, you will lose money on the deal because if she isn't jumping well she will be worth less and you will have to dig deep to buy something better.

If you like her, you are going to have to find the money to spend with a professional to try and resolve the problem. I would suggest having a lesson a day for 5 days, a good professional should show you the light at the end of the tunnel in that time, and give you some tips to work on, on your own.
 
sometimes she is better at home - she still can be silly at home - racing at her fences, spooking at things etc. I vary her work to eliminate boredom as the reason. Last week she jumped out of the arena over a 1.30m fence after loose schooling up a small grid! She's quite a capable jumper! I've used an A frame at home to make her jump in the middle of the fence but obviously you can't do that at a competition. She is young but then she'll be 6 next spring and is jumping far smaller classes than alot of horses her age. She is very good at a show - not fazed by the collecting ring, loud speakers etc. She will stand quietly and watch, warm up sensibly - until you start to jump. Sometimes she warms up brilliantly, other times terribly. Sometimes she jumps an ok - ish round, othertimes it's terrible. I didn't actually take her in the class on sunday because of how much of a mess she was making in the collecting ring of the practice fences. She just felt like she wouldn't have managed to get over a single fence.
 
You don't say how long you have had this horse, it takes time to sort issues out. 5 year old mares are not the easiest for sure and it will take patience to make progress. You sound like to are trying to do the right things - you really need to have a long term view and get advice from someone you trust. I'd say give yourself at least 6-9 months then if you can't see a significant improvement then think again. Patience.
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I know I'm going to get slammed but I'd agree with tracey01 - save your showing money and put it into intensive training for awhile.

Did she jump well for the pro who rode her at home? Did he/she ride her in competition and/or work with her for awhile or was it a one off?

I'm sorry to say, but she doesn't sound unwilling or unable, she sounds confused and lacking in confidence. She may or may not have a physical issue contributing (jumping hard to one side CAN be a sign of such trouble) but to be honest the story doesn't sound that different than all sorts of ones I've heard with similar components. Many, many talented young horses start out okay then fall off the rails - more than most people want to admit. It's not the end of the world but you're right to be concerned about it becoming a permanent situation.

Have you made up a young showjumper, especially a horse of this type, on your own but with experienced supervision before? What other level horses are you riding/showing? Capable and easy aren't always the same thing and no offence, but it sounds like both you and the horse are confused and losing your confidence. Adding someone else into the mix that both of you can have confidence in seems a sensible solution. In fact, from what you say, I wouldn't recommend sending the horse away (although she may still benefit from someone else riding her a bit) - it sounds much more like a situation that would benefit from attention to your partnership than merely her jumping.

If you're really not keen to get more professional help you're other option is to go back to basics. (Wouldn't be my preference but we have to live in the real world.) Get one of the progressive training books and go through, doing each exercise thoroughly and properly, not moving on to the next stage until she's comfortable, capable and relaxed with each one. It will take time but it seems at this point you have everything to gain, including a talented horse, and little to lose.

Good luck.
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I have had her for a year now - but to be fair I didn't really start concentrating on her until spring this year. I really take on board the comment made here - valid point about selling her and losing money, also about getting advice from someone I trust. I have had a bit of help from 2 professional showjumpers (HOYS and OLYMPIC level - top 100 riders etc) - the problem is that I'm just not sure what to listen to. They obviously are both very sucessful (one of them has had a mare with the same breeding and said he really had to work through alot of issues with his horse and that it was very similar to mine) but some of the things they have suggested really don't seem to work. I am very dubious of getting the "wrong" advice and making things alot worse. Ideally it would be great to think she could be jumping Foxhunter classes when she's 7 but at this rate I can see we will still be in British Novice. I suppose it's hard when you see 4yo's jumping round sweetly (and they were on sunday) and you start comparing your horse's behaviour to others at the competition.
 
My back ground - BHSII, jumped 1.30's (although a few years ago!!), have broken and produced horses of this type but can see where the thought is going. I think you are right - she seems confused. She went ok for the pro but he was incredibly harsh (cut her mouth stopping her spooking and trying to make her rein back - which she wouldn't for him but now does as I've taught her to in a more sympathetic way since)
 
I don't know much and you've ridden at a much higher level than me but one thing I've learnt is that the way to misery is to compare yourself with the Pro's!

I could never understand why they had 4 yr olds jumping 1.20s when I had a six year old in BN! But...I don't jump 5 horses a day every day and I have to fit my horse in around my bloomin job!

Even though you are a BHSII I'm guessing you don't spend all day jumping 1.30?!
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I've learnt to stop beating myself up about not being that good and now I'm just happy when my horse goes well.

A bit off topic I know but I'm sure you'll get there with your mare
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How much experience do you have, are you used to riding warmbloods ? She could be getting totally confused if you are trying different things . Stick to straightforward grids and keeping a rhythm over a few fences, make sure you are riding her forward to the rhythm and not hanging on.
I would also stop going to shows and spend the money on lessons , sometimes the best riders are not always the best teachers . Where do you live and we can help more?
 
I import warmbloods and have ridden and competed them for the last few years. I guess I just want this horse to go well, progress and for us to be happy with what we achieve. She's my own personal horse and I love everything about her except this erratic behaviour. I thin several things are a bit clearer following the comments and advice from people:

1.) Irrespective of my "on paper" bhs qualifications, I am losing the confidence in my ability to produce the best in this mare.
2.) I would like help with our partnership but want to be sure that I choose the right trainer
3.) I think because she has been so forward to a fence I am now hanging on too much (although you do have to be prepared for a sneaky fly leap left if you let go too much) and am not using enough leg.

I'm in the midlands - near derby
 


My advice would be to get some professional help sooner rather then later, as you don’t want to make things worse. I take it you have had her back and teeth checked recently as this could explain the change in character when jumping ??

I also really wouldn’t worry about what other horses her age are doing or horses even younger… does that really matter unless you intend on jumping her in age classes.

The only other thing you could do is take her right back to basic’s with lots of pole work to teach her to slow down… again something that a professional would be able to help with I’m sure.
 
Agree with what the others have said, sounds like a few good sessions with a sympathetic pro will help you, especially if you are starting to lose your confidence a bit. You definately shouldn't feel down about what you are doing, & comparing yourself unfavourably to the pros, thats why they are pros, they do it day in day out, 2 or 3 shows a week as well. I felt a right divvy turning up to a pro with my 14hh Welsh X, but honestly its the best move I could have made, he makes no comparisons to either himself or other clients, just gets on with teaching us, even persuaded him to come XC schooling with me, though I had to promise not to tell in case he never lived it down!! She sounds a gorgeous & talented mare & I'm sure that you'll get to where you want to be with the right help & at your own speed. Good luck, shame you're too far away or I'd have sent you to Paul like a shot.
 
Thanks everyone - this is really helpful stuff and has made me see things a little more clearly. I have had sleepless nights about this since the weekend as daft as it sounds!!! Back and teeth are fine - I think time and patience may be the answer. But now for the million dollar question - where do I find the right person to help??? I based between Derby and Chesterfield???
 
Have a look on the BSJA website for Accredited Coaches, I had a couple of sessions with Russ Underwood, he was really good, think he's the area rep for Yorkshire or somewhere, my geography is awful, so don't have a clue if thats near you!!
 
Firstly I have to agree with everyone else - don't worry about her age, if she's not ready then she's not and no amount of hope & wishing you were doing better will change that. Secondly I also think going back to basics for a while with some help would be beneficial.

As for recommendations - it's probably a bit far for you but what about Andrew Saywell, near Southwell? He's a fantastic producer of young horses and a lovely sympathetic rider. Also a BSJA accredited coach. I have his number if you want to PM me?
 
Keep in mind too, that the 4 year olds jumping around are not typical, they are child prodigies. One of the things pros learn is how to pick horses for courses and you don't see the ones that aren't ready to be out in public. Early success isn't even an accurate predictor or future success or ultimate ability. I've known many a successful young horse that stall out later for whatever reason, just as I've known many that ultimately proved to be worth a far more considered and individual approach.

You want this young horse for the long haul so not only can you afford to take your time, you should take your time. You don't have four more talented horses waiting so you cannot afford to choose by attrition, which can be the case - rightly or wrongly - in some large operations.

Thanks for not taking offence at my query regarding your past experience. I always figure no matter how much I know, other people know other things. If I want to make their knowledge mine I have to hunt them down and add what they know to my toolbox. Finding someone who has succeeded with this type of horse AND fits your situation (harsh would put me off - it's not necessary and it's not "me" - but firm wouldn't), who can be strong in an area that you are weak, will be a real help in this situation, I think.
 
Thank you everyone - I know Russ - he's a bit far from me though - wrong side of the Humber!! I had thought of trying Andrew Saywell as it's not that far from me. I really wanted to know what people thought/if they had experience with any of these trainers rather than just selecting a number from a list and then finding that I'd made completely the wrong choice in a coach.
I am my biggest critic - I watch other people and think they are all miles better than me - then I think I'm making a mess of stuff with the horse - she's too nice to spoil but then again I don't want to build her up into something she's not either. She's well bred but just because her parents could do it at a great level, doesn't mean that she will be anything more than average in the end and I don't want to push her past her limits (or mine!) either
 
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I don't know much and you've ridden at a much higher level than me but one thing I've learnt is that the way to misery is to compare yourself with the Pro's!

I could never understand why they had 4 yr olds jumping 1.20s when I had a six year old in BN! But...I don't jump 5 horses a day every day and I have to fit my horse in around my bloomin job!

Even though you are a BHSII I'm guessing you don't spend all day jumping 1.30?!
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I've learnt to stop beating myself up about not being that good and now I'm just happy when my horse goes well.

A bit off topic I know but I'm sure you'll get there with your mare
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A VERY good point !

It doesn't matter what everyone else is doing...it's what your horse is doing that matters !

I have an 8yo who i have taken two years to get his BN double clears on...but he is more than capable of now going and emulating that in Disco and Newcomers. I also have a 10yo who was jumping 1.30m's 3 years ago....but it's been years now and i'm still struggling to get us upto 1.20m level
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Both horses are hugely talented...and both have their on very specific issues. The point being that they are not machines and they will both develop in their own way
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I'm not a professional...but i still suffer from the belief that i should be riding like one as it's where i was 20 years ago. You can't and mustn't compare yourself to them...it's not realistic and it's not healthy.

As those above have said, i'd spend my money for the next few months at least on training and schooling. Work on the rhythm and your confidence in the horse. You'll get it right soon enough, and when it does start to happen it'll come very quickly
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Its really hard trying to make the right desicion, i had a really nice home bred mare 5yo who i sold this year, she was nice and capable jumper, never stopped or refused, but i never felt really happy jumping her, and over the last 15yrs i have done nothing but bring on young average jumping horses and sold on. The final descision that made me sell her based on her ability was when Stephen Hadley told me that i was a much better rider than she was jumper.... I have since bought myself an 11yo Belgian horse, and simply havent looked back... I was schooling him round 1.25 the other day, i dont think i have jumped over a metre in the last 10yrs prior to this! So by all means try, but if it aint working dont waste your time forever, as your confidence will hit rock bottom, i know mine wasnt good. Good luck with your mare.
 
Hi tabitha!

My contribution for what's worth! I agree with what everyone else has said. I personally would spend a few months at home working on the canter, i.e. being able to really change the stride and getting her falt work tip top. I would even leave the jumping for a few weeks and find someone to go back to basics with to instill confidence in you and your mare. I have been to Andrew's yard a couple of times and not personally had a lesson but watched him treating some juniors, and i liked what i saw. maybe you could ask if you could come watch a lesson or have one lesosn and see how it goes? I have also seen several of his working pupils who i have been v impressed with (treat their horses backs). On that note i think you seriously need to rule out an underlying cause of this behaviour as well as excitement.nerves. I would have a full vet check up to be honest and certainly have a professional check her back i recommend McTimoney or a physio.

In my experience with 100's of horses sometimes symptoms such as those you describe can be indicative of a back problem so best to get this ruled out wit a check up. I would also ensure the saddle is perfect and not causing a problem when jumping i.e tight on shoulder, banging on back on landing etc. If you have the back checked ensure you have the saddle as i always look at them and have been truly shocked bu soem that have been fitted by professionals!

Good luck i hope you overcome this problem and i hope this doesn't sounds too negative. If you want to keep this horse in the long run what's the rush, better to get things done correctly and well.
 
TBH if this was my horse, I would stop doing any BSJA for the time being, but I would hire SJ courses regularily, ideally the night / day after a BSJA competition so its all set up. Then Id just make them small and pop round, each session making them bigger as she gets the idea. That way there is no stress of a competition / other people being around etc. and you can set it at a small height where hopefully you can get her jumping the "proper" way and not her way!
 
I've made a decision - based on what people have said on here so a big thank you to everyone!
I will persevere rather than sell her. I'm going to find someone to help our partnership rather than send her to someone to do it. She's fine with back/teeth/saddle etc because we have looked into this and ruled it out. There have been some good suggestions made and things to try so will definitely be doing that.
Incidentally, I gave her a couple of days off after the weekend, got on her this morning, did a bit of flatwork and then popped a cross pole a few times and also an upright - she jumped them foot perfect, in the middle of the fence etc etc. She's happy enough to do that at home so it may have been the buzz of a very busy indoor show that got to her - but she's not the sort of horse that would show she was wound up e.g she wouldn't buck or get hot.
 
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